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cgarrard
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I must have hit your funny bone. Pictures don't lie though. Sorry
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D7200 - Banding and General Performance
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yahoo2u
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Pictures never lieI must have hit your funny bone. Pictures don't lie though. Sorry
It tells you a lot about the picture maker ;-)
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I already showed you the same example Image with no banding. Difference wasn't the cameraI must have hit your funny bone. Pictures don't lie though. Sorry
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cgarrard
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I already showed you the same example Image with no banding. Difference wasn't the cameraI must have hit your funny bone. Pictures don't lie though. Sorry
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As Bill pointed out, that's unrelated to the camera and but rather just the nature of FPNI too replied here that in other circumstances it won't band, higher ISO's for example.I already showed you the same example Image with no banding. Difference wasn't the cameraI must have hit your funny bone. Pictures don't lie though. Sorry
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My opinions are my own and not those of DPR or its administration. They carry no 'special' value (except to me and Lacie of course)
Not at all. Just pointing out, by using your example, that FPN of this nature need not be a practical issue.
I never upgraded to the D7100 or the D7200. In both cases though, FPN was not why. As I showed, it's just not a major or minor IQ issue. Takes nearly no effort to remove it and as you have shown, it takes a bit of extreme processing to manifest it. I just don't find it an issue to the degree you do and wanted potential D7200 owners to see it's not something to be too concerned over. That's all, nothing personal. Honestly....Just discussing the FBN issue. Sorry if that wasn't clear. No disrespect intended
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My opinions are my own and not those of DPR or its administration. They carry no 'special' value (except to me and Lacie of course)
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Can you repeat bclaff's test with your camera? I'm genuinely curious in the sample variation. I've seen D7100 had real-life problems with single-exposure HDR capture.What I find interesting is that at higher ISO's there is no banding when you push exposure.In my Fixed Pattern Noise (FPN) tests I found little FPN for the D7200, particularly in comparison with the D7100
You might be pushing things too far but it's also possible that your camera has an issue (with multi-channel readout it's possible for differences between the channels to be out of spec).
If you like contact me about doing a FPN test on your D7200 to see if it's not typical.
OT: Chrome doesn't let me visit, https issue. M$IE does.
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Strangely, I can never see any banding in the studio samples, not even if I push high-ISO samples and look in the shadows.
My own D7100 regularly displays banding above ISO 6400 in out-of-camera JPEGs, without additional processing. Of course, it depends on settings too: use the Portrait or Neutral profiles and turn on ADL: that's pretty much guaranteed to show obvious banding in the shadow areas with little detail (with high ISO).
I wonder how much sample variation there is.
Originally, I was very disappointed to discover banding with the D7100, but I got used to and mostly gave up on ISOs higher than 6400. Also, while easy to make banding visible, I cannot say it ruined many shots which would otherwise have been great. And many a time it does not matter that much at display sizes. This photo has clear banding if you know where to look for it, but I do not think it is a practical problem.
The OP's sample looks much better than what I could ever get from my D7100. The sample by @trenzterra is more worrying. I was always under the impression that the D7200 did not have banding—now I know that this is not quite true.
My own D7100 regularly displays banding above ISO 6400 in out-of-camera JPEGs, without additional processing. Of course, it depends on settings too: use the Portrait or Neutral profiles and turn on ADL: that's pretty much guaranteed to show obvious banding in the shadow areas with little detail (with high ISO).
I wonder how much sample variation there is.
Originally, I was very disappointed to discover banding with the D7100, but I got used to and mostly gave up on ISOs higher than 6400. Also, while easy to make banding visible, I cannot say it ruined many shots which would otherwise have been great. And many a time it does not matter that much at display sizes. This photo has clear banding if you know where to look for it, but I do not think it is a practical problem.
The OP's sample looks much better than what I could ever get from my D7100. The sample by @trenzterra is more worrying. I was always under the impression that the D7200 did not have banding—now I know that this is not quite true.
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As Bill pointed out earlier, FPN (banding) isn't something one sees at high ISO. " as you raise the ISO setting FPN gets "drowned out" by the other amplified noise sources"
Likely a different type of noise artifact than traditional banding we see at low ISO. Do you have an example?
Here's an example that I just took at ISO 25600:
It is the same RAW files converted in-camera in two ways: Standard colour profile + ADL off and Portrait + ADL "normal". I also included the default ACR conversion (that means luminance noise reduction set to 0, colour noise reduction set to 25).
As I remember, the highest ISO value that still uses analogue amplification in the D7100 is 3200. Wouldn't this mean that ISO 25600 is effectively pushed by 3 stops?
The Portrait profile and ADL also brighten the shadows, which make the banding much more visible. But I can still clearly see the banding with the Standard profile.
In addition to the banding, there is an unnatural brightening at the bottom of the image. This is not due to the scene. It often appears at such high ISOs, especially starting from the 2nd image in a sequence of burst shots. Maybe it's related to the heat. Today I only took one image (no burst), but the ambient temperature here is 29 C ...
For some reason, the banding is much more apparent when I view the image on the camera's screen (compared to a computer). I always assumed that this is due to low-quality downsampling (zooming in just one step on the camera makes it even more visible).
The things I describe here are not specific to this one image. The camera has behaved like this since I got it.
But do keep in mind that this image was taken specifically to show banding: I chose a dark background extending from top to bottom and used ISO 25600. Most settings were left at defaults or automatic.
I really do wish that the D7100 had less banding, but I have learnt to live with it, and avoid it in practice without too much inconvenience. I have not found any free tools which can remove it fully, but there are some things that can help: avoid uniform dark backgrounds at high ISOs (detail in the background hides the banding), noise reduction in ACR helps, not viewing at full size (as is usual) helps, and Nik Dfine has a "debanding" feature which helps a little bit (but not enough to make me open it very often).
Standard colour profile, ADL turned off
Portrait colour profile, ADL set to normal
Default ACR conversion
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That is definitely banding and common to the D7100. It's not FPN and I mixed the two terms in error. My mistake. Apologies
--It is the same RAW files converted in-camera in two ways: Standard colour profile + ADL off and Portrait + ADL "normal". I also included the default ACR conversion (that means luminance noise reduction set to 0, colour noise reduction set to 25).
As I remember, the highest ISO value that still uses analogue amplification in the D7100 is 3200. Wouldn't this mean that ISO 25600 is effectively pushed by 3 stops?
The Portrait profile and ADL also brighten the shadows, which make the banding much more visible. But I can still clearly see the banding with the Standard profile.
In addition to the banding, there is an unnatural brightening at the bottom of the image. This is not due to the scene. It often appears at such high ISOs, especially starting from the 2nd image in a sequence of burst shots. Maybe it's related to the heat. Today I only took one image (no burst), but the ambient temperature here is 29 C ...
For some reason, the banding is much more apparent when I view the image on the camera's screen (compared to a computer). I always assumed that this is due to low-quality downsampling (zooming in just one step on the camera makes it even more visible).
The things I describe here are not specific to this one image. The camera has behaved like this since I got it.
But do keep in mind that this image was taken specifically to show banding: I chose a dark background extending from top to bottom and used ISO 25600. Most settings were left at defaults or automatic.
I really do wish that the D7100 had less banding, but I have learnt to live with it, and avoid it in practice without too much inconvenience. I have not found any free tools which can remove it fully, but there are some things that can help: avoid uniform dark backgrounds at high ISOs (detail in the background hides the banding), noise reduction in ACR helps, not viewing at full size (as is usual) helps, and Nik Dfine has a "debanding" feature which helps a little bit (but not enough to make me open it very often).
Standard colour profile, ADL turned off
Portrait colour profile, ADL set to normal
Default ACR conversion
My opinions are my own and not those of DPR or its administration. They carry no 'special' value (except to me and Lacie of course)
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I forgot to say that this sample was taken as a 12-bit lossy compressed NEF (because I forgot to change the settings, and 12-bit lossy is what I normally use). I just took a 14-bit lossless sample, and subjectively it looks better, but I was not able to recreate the exact same lighting conditions and the shutter speed is a bit different. The magenta brightening at the bottom is still just as strong as in the 12-bit one.
Some years ago I extracted the raw 14-bit data from such high ISO banded raw files to investigate if the banding is the same or different between subsequent frames. My plan was to try to simply subtract it if it is fixed. But it was not fixed: it was different for each frame. So as you say this is not fixed pattern noise (perhaps what we see when pushing ISO 100 images if something else).
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yahoo2u
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...but why?
You need to converse with engineers who work with signals, acoustics and noise transmissions. Seriously.
There is no need to be condescending, or to make arbitrary assumptions about members' technical knowledge.
What is your point anyway? That there is no situation at all where ISO 25600 has any use?
There were claims that banding appears only when "pushing shadows an unnecessary amount" or "not exposing properly", essentially claiming that banding appears due to user error (you implied this pretty strongly in another post of yours). I simply demonstrated that with the D7100 banding appears without pushing exposure in post processing. I am not sure if now you are trying to say that using high ISOs is never useful or necessary, just to put the blame back on the user.
There is no noticeable banding under similar conditions with some other cameras (some older than the D7100). I am well aware that there will always be a lot of noise at high ISOs due to the quantized nature of light. But horizontal banding is much more visually distracting than isotropic noise. Thus this is a genuine limitation of the D7100 that is not technically unavoidable, and not present in some other cameras.
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bclaff
Forum Pro
Despite the high ISO Setting this is probably Fixed Pattern Noise (FPN).
It's just that FPN is so bad for the D7100 it is even apparent at high ISO settings; that is not common.
(It's impossible to distinguish between temporal and fixed noise in one exposure.)
So, as far as I'm concerned, not a mistake on your part
Regards
Bill,
Unrelated question:
When I was playing with these raw files, and extracted the raw data from the 14-bit ISO 25600 NEF file, I saw values roughly between 0 ~ 2^14 with steps of 8 (i.e. 24, 32, 40, 48, but not 25, 26, 27). This seems to confirm that above ISO 3200 the amplification is purely digital.
But when I looked at a 12-bit NEF, also taken at ISO 25600, I saw values between 0 ~ 2^12 with steps of 1 (i.e. 5, 6, 7, 8, 9). I would have expected steps of 2 (i.e. 6, 8, 10, 12), to match what I would get if I converted the 14-bit to 12-bit manually.
Do you know what is the reason for this discrepancy between the 12-bit and 14-bit files?
Unrelated question:
When I was playing with these raw files, and extracted the raw data from the 14-bit ISO 25600 NEF file, I saw values roughly between 0 ~ 2^14 with steps of 8 (i.e. 24, 32, 40, 48, but not 25, 26, 27). This seems to confirm that above ISO 3200 the amplification is purely digital.
But when I looked at a 12-bit NEF, also taken at ISO 25600, I saw values between 0 ~ 2^12 with steps of 1 (i.e. 5, 6, 7, 8, 9). I would have expected steps of 2 (i.e. 6, 8, 10, 12), to match what I would get if I converted the 14-bit to 12-bit manually.
Do you know what is the reason for this discrepancy between the 12-bit and 14-bit files?
swimswithtrout
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I have to agree !! And I don't even have a D7200 !! All Nikon's have horrible banding, just look at these examples !
Straight shots from a cheap, refurbed D5300
Processed to reveal details, the banding is horrid !!
And a very tight crop, even further pushed, I might as well flush this down the toilet.
Another straight shot.
And the hideous results of trying to bring up the shadows.
This was the straw that broke the camels back using the cheap D5300
Before
and after. Look at all of the diagonal banding !!!
And this is from the worst of the worst, a D7100 !!
Before and after. Be thankful you have the D7200 instead of the abomination of the D7100 !!
Nikon should just get out of the camera business if this is the best they can do and give us our money back !
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C
cgarrard
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Clearly you aren't getting your money's worthI have to agree !! And I don't even have a D7200 !! All Nikon's have horrible banding, just look at these examples !
Straight shots from a cheap, refurbed D5300
Processed to reveal details, the banding is horrid !!
And a very tight crop, even further pushed, I might as well flush this down the toilet.
Another straight shot.
And the hideous results of trying to bring up the shadows.
This was the straw that broke the camels back using the cheap D5300
Before
and after. Look at all of the diagonal banding !!!
And this is from the worst of the worst, a D7100 !!
Before and after. Be thankful you have the D7200 instead of the abomination of the D7100 !!
Nikon should just get out of the camera business if this is the best they can do and give us our money back !
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Sucama
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I have to agree !! And I don't even have a D7200 !! All Nikon's have horrible banding, just look at these examples !
Straight shots from a cheap, refurbed D5300
Processed to reveal details, the banding is horrid !!
And a very tight crop, even further pushed, I might as well flush this down the toilet.
Another straight shot.
And the hideous results of trying to bring up the shadows.
This was the straw that broke the camels back using the cheap D5300
Before
and after. Look at all of the diagonal banding !!!
And this is from the worst of the worst, a D7100 !!
Before and after. Be thankful you have the D7200 instead of the abomination of the D7100 !!
Nikon should just get out of the camera business if this is the best they can do and give us our money back !
Indeed horrible shots!!
