What body do you prefer w/adapted lenses?

photoholiko

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I use several camera brand bodies which allows me many different lens attachments with my current crop of legacy lenses. My favorite for using adapted lenses is my Sony A3000, it has a 20.1MP sensor, focus peeking, sweep panorama and good color. I wish it had a tilt screen and IBS though.

Any of you care to share your camera body preferences?
 
Equivalence theory, when it comes to light is B.S. Angles of view reduced with a smaller sensor? Check. But light and lens SPEED are immutable.
And using a smaller sensor crops away a lot of light and throws it in the black plastic bin. Instead of using that light to form the image.
No, light used to form the image at any one pixel is the same.
Of course not. If a pixel is a quarter the size of another pixel, the light the pixel sees is a quarter the amount.
Sensors all have roughly the same native light capture ability per pixel.
No, if you make a pixel smaller, it will not be hit by as many photons as a bigger pixel.
True, but I was generalizing since most pixels are about 4-5um now.
Oh boy. So, lets see. How do you deal with a 8mp Olympus E-300, and a 16mp MFT camera? Explain how things work there. Your whole nonsense "theory" becomes even more problematic. What do you do now, crank up the ISO with the 16mp, as the pixels are smaller?
Shoot a lens at f/1.8 on a FF or a m4/3rds, with the same ISO
And there is your culprit, the one that makes you not understand equivalency. ISO is NOT about sensitivity, in the digital age. ISO 200 on one camera does NOT mean that the same amount of amplification is used as ISO 200 on another camera. ISO 800 on MFT does NOT do that same things as ISO 800 on Fuji GFX.

The only thing it will do is kinda equalize exposure times when you make the weird dumb same f-value settings, which makes no sense in the 1st place.
and you will get the same exposure level. You won't have to raise the exposure compensation in post processing for the m4/3rds. The area of the light cone being intercepted is larger with a large sensor, but it has nothing to do with exposure.
So in your opinion, using ASA 400 film on 6x9 and ISO 50 film in an APS camera will yield the same exposure for the frame. Because sensor sensitivities have nothing to do with film grain size, because it also has nothing to do with pixel size.
No, you misread. SAME ISO
The "same ISO" means different amplification of the signal, ISO is meaningless in the digital age.
for both cameras using the same f-stop and shutter speed means the same result when it comes to image illumination.
In film times, ISO had to do with the sensitivity of film, and the film grain size determined the sensitivity. ISO does not mean that anymore in the digital age.
But if you believe it does, expose the FF sensor say 2 stops faster than the m4/3rds and see if you get the same image illumination result. You won't .
Yes you will. You just set the right ISO setting. Somehow you have the idea that the ISO setting and the exposure time are one and the same, rigidly linked entity.

Not understanding what ISO means in the digital age is not something to be flaunting about?
The ISO setting, lens aperture and shutter speed yield the same image illumination level with m4/3rds, aps and FF. All that is different is the coverage area of the sensor is different and relative noise levels (provided the sensors are the same technology) are different. But image luminance levels are identical. Which means same exposure yields the same result, regardless of sensor size.

If you don't believe this, point a m4/3rds and a FF at a blank wall, an use two stops more exposure on the m4/rds to "equalize" the shots as you might think you have to. The m4/3rds image will be 2-stops brighter. You will have to raise illumination levels in post-processing for the FF by 2-stops to equal the m4/3rds shot illumination levels.
 
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Any of you care to share your camera body preferences?
I could be a weirdo here. SImply put, I bought cheap mirrorless bodies for adaptation. Before getting Sony bodies, I bought a Canon Rebel XTi, then a Pentax K100 Super followed by a Pentax to be used with my M42 lenses. None of these bodies provided me with good results. Then, I switched to Nikon V1, followed by V2 and V3 with a Nikon FT1 adapter so that I could use nearly every Nikon SLR/DSLR lens on them. Well, the V-series cameras are not very friendly to manual focus. At about the same time, I bought a used NEX5 and found its magnification and peaking rather useful, and decided to keep it. So far, I have two NEX5, three NEX6, and one A7II. I liked them all and used them all very frequently because most if not all lenses I have had for decades can be resurrected . Tom also got me to look at Olympus and hence I bough a OM-D EM-10 and a E-P5 with external EVF, all used. I normally used the A7II with adapted normal and wide angle lenses, and NEX5 and NEX6 for long telephoto lenses. It is fun in using adapted lenses. On the other hand, for my serious work, I still prefer a real and good/excellent DSLR body.

My conclusion: I do not have any preference. I used whatever I feel comfortable.

CK
 
Yes, just adjust the ISO accordingly. Or you can use a ND filter. Why you would want to do that I have no idea. But you can, easily. However, can you get a MFT sensor get as much light as a FF sensor? Only if you have 2 stops faster lenses. So, if you use an f1.4 lens on FF, that will require a f0.75 lens on MFT (disregarding less than perfect transmission).
"Require" to achieve what? Same image noise levels? Maybe. But not illumination levels. Do this, if you have both size cameras: Leave the ISO at 100 for both cameras.
Stop your brain dead nonsense already.

There is a Sony A7S II with a 12mp FF sensor. There is a Sony A7R II with 42mp FF sensor. Evidently, the sensors can NOT have the same sensitivity, because of the different "grain size" of the sensors. Yet you can set both to ISO 100, and the electronics do "exposure compensation" for you below the surface so the result you see appears to be the same brightness.
Take a shot with the two cameras and give the m4/3rds two more stops of exposure than the FF. The image illumination will be higher than the FF. If you use the m4/3rds to meter the scene, the FF image will be 2 stops underexposed. In fact, if you do underexpose the FF by two stops, it's noise advantage over m4/3rds disappears.
 
In your opinion, what is it you are gaining if you shoot a FF at the same exposure level as a m4/3rds? By same I mean: Same f-stop on the lens, same ISO, same shutter speed? To me, your only gain is noise control. Is there anything else the "equivalency theory" nets you?
 
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In your opinion, what is it you are gaining if you shoot a FF at the same exposure level as a m4/3rds? By same I mean: Same f-stop
Only stupid photographers will use the same f-stop, f/1.4 means focal length divided by 1.4 = aperture size. Aperture size determines the DOF (and the amount of light let through). A real photographer will choose a similar aperture, not the same f-stop.
on the lens, same ISO, same shutter speed? To me, your only gain is noise control. Is there anything else the "equivalency theory" nets you?
Similar FOV, similar DOF, similar amounts of light, so basically it nets everything.
 
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One major benefit of m4/3rds is the sheer number of lenses that will work with it. Far more than with a FF Sony, since the lenses aren't required to support such a large sensor. So, CCTV c-mount and all kinds of "non-traditional" lenses will work. I can't believe how many odd lenses people have attached to m4/3rds.
 
In your opinion, what is it you are gaining if you shoot a FF at the same exposure level as a m4/3rds? By same I mean: Same f-stop
Only stupid photographers will use the same f-stop, f/1.4 means focal length divided by 1.4 = aperture size. Aperture size determines the DOF. A real photographer will choose a similar aperture, not the same f-stop.
on the lens, same ISO, same shutter speed? To me, your only gain is noise control. Is there anything else the "equivalency theory" nets you?
Similar FOV, similar DOF, similar amounts of light, so basically it nets everything.
Ironically, it's very fast lenses that FF makers concentrate on, in some cases to where things like shallow DOF become extreme to the point of being absurd. Only the surface of eyes in a portrait being in focus, things like that. They are missing the boat. If a FF can perform the same as m4/3rds and do it with a narrower lens aperture, a whole line of small, light-weight but slow lenses could be developed. Whole lens kits could be carried in one bag, the only big thing being the camera. Not only that, if people are satisfied with current m4/3rd image rendering, that means an 80mp FF would be a reasonable prospect. Same pixel density as current m4/3rds, plus much higher resolution than is available now.
 
One major benefit of m4/3rds is the sheer number of lenses that will work with it. Far more than with a FF Sony, since the lenses aren't required to support such a large sensor. So, CCTV c-mount and all kinds of "non-traditional" lenses will work. I can't believe how many odd lenses people have attached to m4/3rds.
As a matter of fact, I do not care how many lenses can be attached to a particular mirror less body because I do not have ALL lenses. If this is the criterion, then the Pentax Q is a better choice. One major issue with smaller sensor bodies is that those good wide angle SLR/RF lenses instantly become normal lenses rather than keeping their wide angle characteristics. IN my experience, I am still waiting to see a CCTV lens with good to excellent image quality when it is mounted on a high resolution micro 4/3 body. In terms of "non-traditional" lenses, I have some large format or even wet-plate camera lenses. Using them on a micro 4/3 body would make them all useless. This does not make any sense to me. Thus, APS-C bodies are good middle ground cameras for adaptaton.

CK
 
In your opinion, what is it you are gaining if you shoot a FF at the same exposure level as a m4/3rds? By same I mean: Same f-stop
Only stupid photographers will use the same f-stop, f/1.4 means focal length divided by 1.4 = aperture size. Aperture size determines the DOF. A real photographer will choose a similar aperture, not the same f-stop.
on the lens, same ISO, same shutter speed? To me, your only gain is noise control. Is there anything else the "equivalency theory" nets you?
Similar FOV, similar DOF, similar amounts of light, so basically it nets everything.
Ironically, it's very fast lenses that FF makers concentrate on, in some cases to where things like shallow DOF become extreme to the point of being absurd.
Only silly people would say that. I knew this had to be about your platform being mft.

Sad.

Equivalency is NOT about FF being better than MFT. Or the other way around. It is merely about understanding the fundamentals.
Only the surface of eyes in a portrait being in focus, things like that. They are missing the boat.
And you miss creative imagination.
If a FF can perform the same as m4/3rds and do it with a narrower lens aperture, a whole line of small, light-weight but slow lenses could be developed. Whole lens kits could be carried in one bag, the only big thing being the camera. Not only that, if people are satisfied with current m4/3rd image rendering, that means an 80mp FF would be a reasonable prospect. Same pixel density as current m4/3rds, plus much higher resolution than is available now.
Yeah, wonderful sharpness you would get with 50mp or 80mp MFT and those smaller aperture lenses.
 
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One major benefit of m4/3rds is the sheer number of lenses that will work with it. Far more than with a FF Sony, since the lenses aren't required to support such a large sensor. So, CCTV c-mount and all kinds of "non-traditional" lenses will work. I can't believe how many odd lenses people have attached to m4/3rds.
As a matter of fact, I do not care how many lenses can be attached to a particular mirror less body because I do not have ALL lenses. If this is the criterion, then the Pentax Q is a better choice. One major issue with smaller sensor bodies is that those good wide angle SLR/RF lenses instantly become normal lenses rather than keeping their wide angle characteristics. IN my experience, I am still waiting to see a CCTV lens with good to excellent image quality when it is mounted on a high resolution micro 4/3 body. In terms of "non-traditional" lenses, I have some large format or even wet-plate camera lenses. Using them on a micro 4/3 body would make them all useless. This does not make any sense to me. Thus, APS-C bodies are good middle ground cameras for adaptaton.

CK
Schneider's 25mm f/0.95 CCTV lens is a good one but expensive, Zeiss's 25mm f/1.4 Tevidon, Fuji's 25mm f/1.4. But honestly, even a Nikon or Olympus standard wide angle FF lens from year's past can't match a cheap lens of the same focal length today, too many innovations in optics have taken place.
 
One major benefit of m4/3rds is the sheer number of lenses that will work with it. Far more than with a FF Sony, since the lenses aren't required to support such a large sensor. So, CCTV c-mount and all kinds of "non-traditional" lenses will work. I can't believe how many odd lenses people have attached to m4/3rds.
As a matter of fact, I do not care how many lenses can be attached to a particular mirror less body because I do not have ALL lenses. If this is the criterion, then the Pentax Q is a better choice. One major issue with smaller sensor bodies is that those good wide angle SLR/RF lenses instantly become normal lenses rather than keeping their wide angle characteristics. IN my experience, I am still waiting to see a CCTV lens with good to excellent image quality when it is mounted on a high resolution micro 4/3 body. In terms of "non-traditional" lenses, I have some large format or even wet-plate camera lenses. Using them on a micro 4/3 body would make them all useless. This does not make any sense to me. Thus, APS-C bodies are good middle ground cameras for adaptaton.

CK
Schneider's 25mm f/0.95 CCTV lens is a good one but expensive, Zeiss's 25mm f/1.4 Tevidon, Fuji's 25mm f/1.4. But honestly, even a Nikon or Olympus standard wide angle FF lens from year's past can't match a cheap lens of the same focal length today, too many innovations in optics have taken place.
I don't care about lenses being expensive, I do care about usability and joy in using them. A 25mm lens on a m4/3 body becomes a 50mm lens in terms of angle of view. If I want to use a 50mm kens, I just pick up a 50mm lens, mount it on a FF body, and shoot. By the way, why must always adapt legacy lenses when I have modern lenses to use or adapt? When I adapt lenses to be used on a mirrorless body, I want to enjoy the glory of that lens in the good old days and to understand the characteristics of that particular lens. A cr@p-like lens is just good for fun and won't stay on any camera body for long. As I said, I could be a weirdo here. So, do not take my option seriously.

CK
 
Hello!

... maybe you can help me out.

I always wonder why a strictly theoretical approach is taken and not a practical (subject oriented) one, like in "I do have scene A, want to frame it in way B with perspectice B1, with an evenly as possible (for example) exposure with the least amount of lost highlight data and the least amount of blocked darks - how do I shoot that with FF camera C, APS-C camera D, 4/3s camera E, 1" camera F" - would that not speak more loudly than all theoretical talk (and show the potential differences for everyone to see)?

I often hear that ISO does not matter at all and wonder if this is (practically speaking) true in every case? Will I really get the same file to work with when shooting a given scene with (deliberately chosen) "correct" exposure (= the one I want for that very scene) at ISO 100, 200, 300... with shutter speed adjusted accordingly?

Time to go do some testing I guess.

Best,

Alex

--
carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero
 
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Hello!

... maybe you can help me out.

I always wonder why a strictly theoretical approach is taken and not a practical (subject oriented) one, like in "I do have scene A, want to frame it in way B with perspectice B1, with an evenly as possible (for example) exposure with the least amount of lost highlight data and the least amount of blocked darks - how do I shoot that with FF camera C, APS-C camera D, 4/3s camera E, 1" camera F" - would that not speak more loudly than all theoretical talk (and show the potential differences for everyone to see)?
Oddly enough you skipped one thing: the choice of DOF.
I often hear that ISO does not matter at all and wonder if this is (practically speaking) true in every case? Will I really get the same file to work with when shooting a given scene with (deliberately chosen) "correct" exposure (= the one I want for that very scene) at ISO 100, 200, 300... with shutter speed adjusted accordingly?
You will get a similar result with the same scene A, with the same perspective B1, with a similar FOV due to an equivalent focal length choice resulting in a similar framing way B. When you choose a DOF look G you are after, you get that by choosing the same aperture, which results in equivalent f-stops.

You then get similar DOF, FOV, framing and perspective.

With the larger sensors, you will be able to get less noise.

If, for some or whatever reason, it is important to use the same exposure time (it can be to stop motion, or to capture motion, for instance, or something more mundane as to avoid camera shake induced motion blur), you can achieve that by using equivalent ISO settings.

With these simple fundamental rules, you can get what you are after with any camera, the only thing that some camera choices offer over other camera choices is shallower DOF options.

If for whatever reason you want to use strangely high DR from RAW to cram that in a lower DR range for print or screen (tonal mapping), that then is another thing where some camera choices are better for that than others.
Time to go do some testing I guess.

Best,

Alex

--
carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero
 
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Hello!

... just being a bit short there (to chose the framing etc should have summed up the whole look the result should have, including the depth of field I want for the scene, which I guess it did not as planned...).

Best,

Alex
 
One major benefit of m4/3rds is the sheer number of lenses that will work with it. Far more than with a FF Sony, since the lenses aren't required to support such a large sensor. So, CCTV c-mount and all kinds of "non-traditional" lenses will work. I can't believe how many odd lenses people have attached to m4/3rds.
... IN my experience, I am still waiting to see a CCTV lens with good to excellent image quality when it is mounted on a high resolution micro 4/3 body.
You have the correct issue right there: very few legacy lenses really resolve well enough for 16MP micro 4/3 pixel density to get anything a 42MP FF sensor wouldn't -- and even fewer out-resolve a 24MP APS-C sensor in the m4/3-crop center. BTW, by area, 16MP m4/3 is less than 9% denser pixels than 24MP APS-C and 46% denser than 42MP FF, so we're not even talking a 1.5X difference in density, while we are talking a 1.6X or 3.8X crop in terms of total area... and that's not even counting the extra loss from having the 4x3 aspect ratio. (The 2X crop factor quoted for m4/3 is a diagonal measure, which would yield 4X area crop if the aspect ratio was the same, but making m4/3 be 3:2 would be about a 4.2X area crop.)

Lens resolution is shockingly poorly correlated with lens format coverage -- really good lenses are generally around 50 line-pairs per mm, both for 135-film lenses and large-format lenses (e.g., 4x5"). CCTV lenses are a bit of a special case, commonly sacrificing resolution for greater speed and/or zoom range; it's a small subset that are qualified as "megapixel capable" because typical video sensors were around 1/3MP.

In sum, many m4/3 bodies are very nice, but that doesn't make up for a very unfortunate choice of sensor size. These are the "110 SLRs" of the digital age.... :-(
 
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Seems we've found the cause of discord on forums. We can discuss adapted lenses civilly all day long. Start discussing bodies and we're no better than any of the brand forums!

Clearly there are a lot of great bodies and a lot of happy users. The best camera is the one that gives the you the results your chasing. Hope everyone finds theirs.
 
It depends what you (and Tom C) mean/meant by "stale", I suppose. This post has indeed generated a lot of traffic, but does that make it 'fresh'?

Not in my opinion. Far too much of it has been the same old yah boo sucks nonsense about equivalence (my pet hate, it's just so boring), and all sorts of other fan boy stuff that I normally try to stay away from on DPR. And now it has infected this former safe haven.

It may be ironic, but it is actually this thread that has finally made me decide that the Adapted Lens Talk forum is no longer somewhere I want to spend any time, not even as a 'lurker'.
 
I'm sorry to have been the cause for your decision, I meant no harm nor did I intend to cause controversy, many time a post deviates from it's original subject. I'm sure many members of this forum will miss your contributions.
 
Hello!

... maybe you can help me out.

I always wonder why a strictly theoretical approach is taken and not a practical (subject oriented) one, like in "I do have scene A, want to frame it in way B with perspectice B1, with an evenly as possible (for example) exposure with the least amount of lost highlight data and the least amount of blocked darks - how do I shoot that with FF camera C, APS-C camera D, 4/3s camera E, 1" camera F" - would that not speak more loudly than all theoretical talk (and show the potential differences for everyone to see)?

I often hear that ISO does not matter at all and wonder if this is (practically speaking) true in every case? Will I really get the same file to work with when shooting a given scene with (deliberately chosen) "correct" exposure (= the one I want for that very scene) at ISO 100, 200, 300... with shutter speed adjusted accordingly?

Time to go do some testing I guess.

Best,

Alex
 
Dan, we can have some fun here - please take it in the right spirit as I have.
The absolute best body made for adapted lenses was the Ricoh GXR-M - the module and camera was specifically designed for manual focus lenses and used a Leica M mount which could be further adapted to almost any other major mount type.
the world of adapted lenses is not limited to just manual focus glass...
I have taken the attitude that the GXR-M was specifically made for use with manual focus lenses. I think I might be the one on the forum that leads the small charge in favour of adapted AF lenses - so this comment surprises me. The GXR-M is suitably hopeless with AF lenses as it was not made with that type of lens in mind.
The inside of the mount was not cluttered up by electronics or baffles therefore almost the same size as the inside of a regualr Leica M film mount. As a result lenses with large rear protrusions would fit.
the same can be said about e-mount, x-mount, m4/3, etc.
Quite a few RF lenses will not fit on other mount cameras. The Jupiter-12 just scrapes in on the FE mount (only) but so close to the sensor as to not be able to show its best off that huge rear lens bulb. However the unique feature of the Ricoh GXR-M is that the inside of the amount is made to film camera specifications and uses a focal plane shutter that actually defaults shut to protect the sensor during lens changes.
Furthermore the 12mp sensor had microlenses specifically set for use with RF lenses.
1) rf lenses are a *very* small subset of the adapted lens scene.
Tell the Leica fiends this :)
2) the ricoh gxr-m is an aps-c camera, how many rf lenses are ff, and how many are crop? the small ricoh sensor is cropping out the worst part of a ff lens, whatever microlens nonsense it has is not useful in the center portion of the lens.
There is more to the digital camera world than FF sensors. Consider that aps-c dslr bodies were the backbone of the mirrorless system for years and still account for a good proportion of the dslr body sales made. To some extent the FF sensor has run away with the senses. I tried it but have moved back to the tiny sliver sensors and somehow I am managing. I have decided that I can afford more lenses but not more FF sensor camera bodies (but that is my own particular problem - I can live with it :) )
3) sony ff microlens design evolved with the a7rii sensor, and it's ff... much better.
Good - the GXR-M system was evolved many years before the AR7ii and only has a 12mp aps-c Sony sensor. Ricoh should have known better .... :)
4) the ricoh gx4-m is an aps-c camera, so every ff lens that gets put on it is automatically slower, since the fov is cropped by a factor equal to the size of the sensor... be clear that crop sensors don't just affect dof; using equivalence, they also limit the amount of total light that the camera gets... that's why m4/3 is an inferior choice for adapting ff legacy glass.
The GXR-M is capable of some fine images despite all its handicaps.
The controls were optimised for MF use
sony controls are optimized for mf use.
Now you are talking rubbish. The Sony, like all other digital camera bodies (except the GXR-M, Epson RD and the MF Leica bodies) is optimised for oem AF electronic lenses and any MF capability is only by the way.
and there were two types of focus peaking used. One "normal" flicker style (Mode1) which seemed auto-scaled (unlike Sony) and the other which was a unique standout, and still is as no other firm has tried to implement it. Mode2 uses grey scale only and enhances all the outline edges.
that's not as accurate as the sony color peaking, against the b&w display.
I cannot argue as I have not experienced this. I presume that you have tried both.
The only real issue is that the evf is of the clip on variety. That Ricoh did everything else so well and did not provide a built in evf is a sad omission.
well, no, lol, that's not the only issue.

that ricoh vf-2 is: 1)an obsolete-tech lcd evf, 2)it's only 920k resolution.

the a7r is: 1)an oled evf, 2)it's 2400k resolution.

there is no comparison between the two, for manual focus accuracy, lcd evf displays are awful.
Well I would not consider the displays on the GXR-M as "awful".
you didn't mention what magnification level is available on that ricoh?
Oh, so you have not tried the GXR-M which you have comprehensively set out to rubbish?
magnification is the most accurate method of manual focusing; the a7r has 14.4x mag capability, and the a7/a7ii cameras are something like 12.2x(?)
Otherwise all other camera bodies are make-do built around mounts that are primary designed for oem electronic lenses, half done focus peaking, firmware work-arounds, and no specific micro lens support on the sensors.
see above... the gxr-m is obsolete.
I might be "older" but it will never be obsolete as there is no equivalent made today.
 

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