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HDR auto align on GX7 and GX8: doesn't seem to work

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timo

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Is it me? Both cameras consistently fail to align the component images properly, leaving shadows/ghost edges around crucial details. HDR auto-align setting to ON.

Sure I can shoot bracketed shots and blend/align them in Lightroom or Photoshop: but it would save effort to do it in the camera.

What is your experience? What am I doing wrong? My trusty old Pentax K5 used to align images perfectly.

--
Tim
http://timauger.smugmug.com
http://timauger.blogspot.sg/
 
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Sorry to ask but:
You are shooting HDR on a tripod, abd Using a electronic cable release or self-timer, correct?

Any examples to post?
 
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Hung Low said:
Sorry to ask but:
You are shooting HDR on a tripod, abd Using a electronic cable release or self-timer, correct?

Any examples to post?

--
Makers of THE original Great Wall. People's Republic of China. And, proud of it.
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No, I'm not. If I were, I would not have to use 'auto-align', and there would be no problem.

'Auto-align' is supposed to cope with the small vagaries of hand-holding (provided they are not too extreme). My Pentax DSLR does it impeccably. Computer software does it. My Panasonics don't.

Actually I drew attention to this with the GX7 some time ago, and didn't really get an answer. I hoped that the GX8 would have more effective firmware in this regard.

--
Tim
http://timauger.smugmug.com
http://timauger.blogspot.sg/
 
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HDR mode on the GX7 stores a JPG image so you may be better off shooting several bracketed RAW images and merging them in Lightroom or using a suitable plugin. Maybe your handheld shots are not steady enough for Panasonic's algorithms?
 
SC489 said:
HDR mode on the GX7 stores a JPG image so you may be better off shooting several bracketed RAW images and merging them in Lightroom or using a suitable plugin. Maybe your handheld shots are not steady enough for Panasonic's algorithms?
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I agree. The fact that you lose the RAW file by shooting in HDR mode was the final straw for me: now I shoot bracketed images. I don't like using a tripod for most shots anyway, so the HDR mode didn't suit me.

Maggie
 
... but just occasionally and mostly on the edge having center perfectly OK. For sure result I now shoot exposure bracketing for PP.

A sample of failure from GX7:

The edge is a disaster.
The edge is a disaster.

--
Albert
 
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Its not you, only just last week i was getting similar 'hit or miss' results using HDR Mode on my GX8. So i was experimenting with the different settings for alignment and the number of images etc. I think it might be related to IBIS, so i was just starting to experiment with that this weekend, to take lots of HDR Mode shots without stabilisation on etc.

However i have been distracted this weekend by evaluating a GX80, which i discovered has another option for doing in-camera HDR. In its Filter Effects it has an option called High Dynamic which appears to do much better than HDR Mode. I am quite impressed with the High Dynamic Filter so i am this-minute trying to work-out in what-way the Filter is different from HDR Mode. My own GX8 does have this filter option too, so i will get back to it later.

(i believe the HDR Mode uses multiple image stacking and the HDR Filter Effect uses processing only, which appears to default around ISO 800?)

I found an added benefit of using the Filter Effect which might sway me to use it instead - two images recorded per shot, one 'normal' and one with the Filter Effect (High Dynamic) on.

With both GX8 & GX80 in the Menu, Record, Filter Settings, Simultaneous Rec w/o Filter - set it to 'ON'. One then gets two recorded images (normal & filtered JPEG's) for every shot taken - which is very handy, so i have just left it permanently on as i primarily shoot JPEG. Its like having safety-net (with no penalty) when gambling with various unknown filter effects such as High Dynamic. This also gives one the ability to directly compare the two shots in-camera.

I have a use for in-camera HDR so once i have finished with this GX80, i am going back to experimenting with the stabilisation on&off on my GX8.

So for in-camera HDR, i might be moving away from HDR Mode and stick with the High Dynamic filter, even if it is at the expense of ISO performance.
 
SC489 said:
HDR mode on the GX7 stores a JPG image so you may be better off shooting several bracketed RAW images and merging them in Lightroom or using a suitable plugin. Maybe your handheld shots are not steady enough for Panasonic's algorithms?
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Well, yes, absolutely. That's my whole point. Of course I can do that.

But my handheld shots are reasonably consistent and if the camera claims to have an 'auto-align' facility, I think my shots are well within the degree of variability that should cause the camera's software no problem. It really is a defect, in my opinion.
 
Deekie said:
Its not you, only just last week i was getting similar 'hit or miss' results using HDR Mode on my GX8. So i was experimenting with the different settings for alignment and the number of images etc. I think it might be related to IBIS, so i was just starting to experiment with that this weekend, to take lots of HDR Mode shots without stabilisation on etc.

However i have been distracted this weekend by evaluating a GX80, which i discovered has another option for doing in-camera HDR. In its Filter Effects it has an option called High Dynamic which appears to do much better than HDR Mode. I am quite impressed with the High Dynamic Filter so i am this-minute trying to work-out in what-way the Filter is different from HDR Mode. My own GX8 does have this filter option too, so i will get back to it later.

(i believe the HDR Mode uses multiple image stacking and the HDR Filter Effect uses processing only, which appears to default around ISO 800?)

I found an added benefit of using the Filter Effect which might sway me to use it instead - two images recorded per shot, one 'normal' and one with the Filter Effect (High Dynamic) on.

With both GX8 & GX80 in the Menu, Record, Filter Settings, Simultaneous Rec w/o Filter - set it to 'ON'. One then gets two recorded images (normal & filtered JPEG's) for every shot taken - which is very handy, so i have just left it permanently on as i primarily shoot JPEG. Its like having safety-net (with no penalty) when gambling with various unknown filter effects such as High Dynamic. This also gives one the ability to directly compare the two shots in-camera.

I have a use for in-camera HDR so once i have finished with this GX80, i am going back to experimenting with the stabilisation on&off on my GX8.

So for in-camera HDR, i might be moving away from HDR Mode and stick with the High Dynamic filter, even if it is at the expense of ISO performance.
Click to expand...
Yes, I also wondered if it might be IBIS related to some degree, and I was intending myself to do a few tests with that in mind. I'd be interested to hear what results you come up with.

The HD filter sounds interesting (I've not tried it), but essentially it doesn't sound as if it will do much more than you can achieve with some adjustments to a RAW file in Lightroom.
 
I will try to remember to re-post when i get back to experimenting with my GX8. My worst results looked like 'camera shake' but i was also sticking with the 12-60 which is perhaps not best choice. I now have a couple of primes to try. I can imagine a scenario where auto-align and IBIS are fighting each other, regardless of hand-holding vs tripod. (i cannot use a tripod because i primarily shoot yachts).

In-camera HDR is the future and will get better. I personally have no time, patience or budget to purchase a bigger computer for huge RAW files, buy expensive software packages and go-through the big learning curve to do such a simple task in post. I expect the technology to do this for me and i am confident it will.
 
timo said:
Is it me? Both cameras consistently fail to align the component images properly, leaving shadows/ghost edges around crucial details. HDR auto-align setting to ON.

Sure I can shoot bracketed shots and blend/align them in Lightroom or Photoshop: but it would save effort to do it in the camera.

What is your experience? What am I doing wrong? My trusty old Pentax K5 used to align images perfectly.
Click to expand...
 
I usually sboot RAW but have experimented with the HDR mode on my gx8. Really terrible. As the OP states the images do not get aligned and are blurry. I try to use fast shutter speed and hold very steady against my body. The few composites that are sharp have washed out, fake color. No, i don't use a tripod. If I did I would just take 3 autobracketed shots and combine pp.

I guess I don't understand why my cellphone produces sharp, clear HDR shots and the gx8 does not. This is not a deal breaker for me as I can get near HDR with RAW plus filters etc.

BTW, the panorama setting on the gx8 does a pretty good job if you need it
 
CaliforniaDave said:
timo said:
Is it me? Both cameras consistently fail to align the component images properly, leaving shadows/ghost edges around crucial details. HDR auto-align setting to ON.

Sure I can shoot bracketed shots and blend/align them in Lightroom or Photoshop: but it would save effort to do it in the camera.

What is your experience? What am I doing wrong? My trusty old Pentax K5 used to align images perfectly.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
lescrane said:
I usually sboot RAW but have experimented with the HDR mode on my gx8. Really terrible. As the OP states the images do not get aligned and are blurry. I try to use fast shutter speed and hold very steady against my body. The few composites that are sharp have washed out, fake color. No, i don't use a tripod. If I did I would just take 3 autobracketed shots and combine pp.

I guess I don't understand why my cellphone produces sharp, clear HDR shots and the gx8 does not. This is not a deal breaker for me as I can get near HDR with RAW plus filters etc.

BTW, the panorama setting on the gx8 does a pretty good job if you need it
Click to expand...
I guess we just have to accept this is something where Panasonic have screwed up. I find it very annoying - as I said above, my ageing Pentax DSLRs can get it right. My iPhone can too. So it's not exactly cutting-edge stuff.
 
timo said:
CaliforniaDave said:
timo said:
Is it me? Both cameras consistently fail to align the component images properly, leaving shadows/ghost edges around crucial details. HDR auto-align setting to ON.

Sure I can shoot bracketed shots and blend/align them in Lightroom or Photoshop: but it would save effort to do it in the camera.

What is your experience? What am I doing wrong? My trusty old Pentax K5 used to align images perfectly.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
I shot some more with the GX80 today and think i am a bit nearer understanding the issues using HDR Mode hand-held. As best results come from low fixed ISO and high fixed aperture (say f/16) when i do wish to use HDR Mode i am generally outdoors in good daylight, so i do also ensure i have high-enough shutter speed to hand-hold.

Firstly, i am happy to leave stabilisation on, the majority of my test shots were worse without it. Secondly, with the GX80 i cannot attribute any of the poor shots to mechanical vs electronic shutter so i am happy to leave the shutters set to Auto. All images were equally good or bad using either shutter, with only some being spoilt by some-other influence.

The poorest ones appear to be when there are individual items moving within the scene. Which looks like bits of motion blur on selective items, not across the whole image. I have probably been assuming i am shooting static scenes, when in my case there was very slightly moving foliage or masts etc which HDR mode seems to struggle with. Perhaps in-addition to hand movement, any additional moving elements within the stacked frames are too-much for these cameras to process.

If-so, i think that is the scenario when i will compromise by switching to the High Dynamic filter-effect mode instead. At least those are easier to shoot single-shots which are as sharp as any other image.

I also wonder which method the smart-phones are utilising?
 
It's not you, It kinda sucks at alignment, and I don't think Pana is alone in this (but I haven't played with it as much on my E-M5 II tbh)... To me it's kinda mind boggling... Yeah a good majority of enthusiasts will still prefer to do it in post, heck without the option to save the individual frames (which Oly does do) I think I'd prefer the post approach too

What's mind boggling is that a phone like my Pixel does such a much better job of this, Google's HDR+ mode is kind of amazing in how reliably it produces a decent JPEG without alignment errors and even compensating for some movement. Sure it doesn't save the individual frames either but it often combines more frames than HDR modes on most cameras...

The kicker is they're doing all the without any sort of IS! Just relying on a very fast sensor readout and clever processing. I don't understand why a cameras with IBIS simply can't do better, I imagine improving in camera HDR has simply not been a priority. In the past I might've given camera companies a pass on the basis of larger sensors taking more time to read etc...

That's not an issue anymore tho, at all, maybe it's a matter of processing power... The higher end bodies with more processing power are the ones where people would likely care less about in camera HDR and merged JPEG output, and features are developed first and foremost there then they trickle down the line.

Still, with the readout speeds we're now seeing (and IBIS) and some of the amazing modes already in place (high res mode, post focus, etc) I hope we see more innovation on this front.
 
Impulses said:
It's not you, It kinda sucks at alignment, and I don't think Pana is alone in this (but I haven't played with it as much on my E-M5 II tbh)... To me it's kinda mind boggling... Yeah a good majority of enthusiasts will still prefer to do it in post, heck without the option to save the individual frames (which Oly does do) I think I'd prefer the post approach too

What's mind boggling is that a phone like my Pixel does such a much better job of this, Google's HDR+ mode is kind of amazing in how reliably it produces a decent JPEG without alignment errors and even compensating for some movement. Sure it doesn't save the individual frames either but it often combines more frames than HDR modes on most cameras...

The kicker is they're doing all the without any sort of IS! Just relying on a very fast sensor readout and clever processing. I don't understand why a cameras with IBIS simply can't do better, I imagine improving in camera HDR has simply not been a priority. In the past I might've given camera companies a pass on the basis of larger sensors taking more time to read etc...

That's not an issue anymore tho, at all, maybe it's a matter of processing power... The higher end bodies with more processing power are the ones where people would likely care less about in camera HDR and merged JPEG output, and features are developed first and foremost there then they trickle down the line.

Still, with the readout speeds we're now seeing (and IBIS) and some of the amazing modes already in place (high res mode, post focus, etc) I hope we see more innovation on this front.
Click to expand...
Exactly.
 
Deekie said:
.... As best results come from low fixed ISO and high fixed aperture (say f/16)...
Click to expand...
f/16 will never get you the best result on m43. Some people get over concerned with diffraction but at f/16 the effects are definitely very noticable.
 
Any example of pics?
 
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