MFT and Low Light

Yes, you are Ii think you are missing something...

With FF, you can have a zoom which is good for everything, including low light, thin dof,...

With m43 you will need to have primes,...

You have the 12-40 f2.8 zoom but if it is big, expensive and not so fast, I think this is better then to choose FF.
Exactly. You rarely hear this, but that's actually one of the biggest advantage of a more capable sensor. Very good point.

I shooot with m43 exclusively for quite a while. It works amazingly well for me, for what I shoot but:

- action indoors in poorly lit places

- shallow DOF with wide and standard zooms (not tele or primes)

- high resolutions of things where you can't use stitching or high-res Oly mode

- wider DR at base ISO's

will be much easy to achieve with a larger formats like FF (APSC is too close IMHO)

I'm a big m43 fan, but let's facts are facts.

And yes, the most important is personal needs, what fits for one person not necessarily fits with another. There is also the price, let's not forget there is a big price difference, unless you're willing to compromise in which case why bother.
 
Which photographic subjects usually benefit from greater DoF? Landscape, architecture, product photography, studio work, macro.
Just about any. Sports, wildlife, event, portrait, street, kids&family ... you name it. In low light, when you are forced to use f/1.8 or f/1.2, DoF is generally sub-optimal.
Uh huh

Back in the real world, it's pretty routine to use shallow DoF for low-light events, concerts, sports and more, especially when flash is not an option, or not preferable.
No, it isn't. How do you know how people shoot ? Yes, sure there are those situation you mention, but I don't know where the ,,routine,, thing come from. For me, and most of my photographer friends, those are rare situation, or non-existent.
There are also lots of times with those very subjects that the photographer will prefer shallow DoF, to isolate the subject.
Which can be done with m43, just not as easy as with FF
And of course, with many of those subjects, you're using tele lenses anyway, which means you're not getting a lot of DoF anyway.
That just ccontradicts your previous statement, doesn't it ?
And guess what? If you're using a larger format (notably 35mm), you can stop down without a shutter speed penalty, because you can boost the ISO with less of a penalty.
In theory, yes, and it does work many times, thoung not every time.
Sorry, but... in terms of low light, M43 may meet your needs, or offer non-IQ benefits (like lighter weight), but in terms of IQ it does not actually offer an advantage.
Yes, it does. IQ is not 100% dependant on sensor size. Lenses play a big role, what lenses are available, how fast they are, how good they are wide open, etc. Also, check those milky way shots made hand held with the E-M1 II, then take a FF and try to match that.
 
I'll avoid the baiting and reply to the OP's point. I just recently used my m43 in low light, ISO 6400 with the Panasonic f/2.8 Pro zooms, and got excellent shots. The [performers and promoter] just love them. Are they perfectly noise-free? No. The noise is much better than when we were dealing with ASA 1000-speed films. So much better than that. And they clean up pretty easily, too, with just a click of the mouse (I'm currently using Nik DNoise2, but I do have Neat Image also available).

And that was with the GX7, because my EM5II was doing video work. The EM5II's output would have been even better.

Somehow the appearance of even the slightest touch of noise has become a world-ending event. Pixel peepers have come to rule photography. Current m43 technology gives better results than what we were able to get only 6 years ago, but somehow that's not enough? Eh. If your "photography" only involves snapping photos so as to look at them at 600x magnification, more power to you.
 
Sorry, but I just have to reply. Did you not read the post you are responding to? This thread is about low light shooting when greater DoF is wanted.
You titled the thread 'MFT and Low Light"

Your first sentence was "Is MTF is becoming the secret Low light Tip or am I missing something"

You didn't acknowledge DR advantages

You are blowing off the advantages of faster lenses

Getting 1.5 - 2 stops, plus another stop or so from lenses, is significant in a lot of situations where you're shooting low light

And I have to ask, when exactly do you need more DoF in low-light situations? Concerts? No.
Actually, yes. It depends on the venue and style if the photographer. I work for a small venue in which my 50-200 lets me get very tight shots of singers at the longer focal lengths. A FF camera at the same focal lengths and apertures would result in near or far side eyes being out of focus and that sort of thing. Solution for FF of course is to stop down, up the ISO...so itbin effect evens out.

At shorter focal lengths I can get group shots from the wings with better DOF, which is part of my personal style.

There are times where some extra DR would make my life easier.

Trade offs are inevitable, and it's more a matter of personal preference than any sort of absolute comparison.

Sports? Rarely. Events? Not so much.

So if you're asking if you're missing something? Then yes, you are missing quite a bit.
 
Which photographic subjects usually benefit from greater DoF? Landscape, architecture, product photography, studio work, macro.
Just about any. Sports, wildlife, event, portrait, street, kids&family ... you name it. In low light, when you are forced to use f/1.8 or f/1.2, DoF is generally sub-optimal.
Uh huh

Back in the real world, it's pretty routine to use shallow DoF for low-light events, concerts, sports and more, especially when flash is not an option, or not preferable.
No, it isn't. How do you know how people shoot ?
Because I've been involved in photography for longer than I care to admit, including doing portraits, street, events, concerts etc.

I also know the capabilities of the equipment.

And note that I'm not saying "there is NO WAY you can use smaller apertures!" Rather, this is how most people shoot, when they need to stop action, in low light, and do not want to use flash.
There are also lots of times with those very subjects that the photographer will prefer shallow DoF, to isolate the subject.
Which can be done with m43, just not as easy as with FF
I'm sorry, but... No, it can't.

M43 with fast primes do a pretty good job, and good enough for my own purposes. But it can't get the same shallow DoF as a fast prime on a 35mm camera, when comparing lenses with the same angle of view and same f/stop.
And of course, with many of those subjects, you're using tele lenses anyway, which means you're not getting a lot of DoF anyway.
That just ccontradicts your previous statement, doesn't it ?
...no, pointing out that tele lenses have shallower DoF does not contradict the fact that larger formats have shallower DoF options, when using the same angle of view and same f/stop.
Sorry, but... in terms of low light, M43 may meet your needs, or offer non-IQ benefits (like lighter weight), but in terms of IQ it does not actually offer an advantage.
Yes, it does. IQ is not 100% dependant on sensor size. Lenses play a big role, what lenses are available, how fast they are, how good they are wide open, etc.
I'm sorry dude, but you are stretching it here. When making these kinds of comparisons, it makes sense to assume that as many variables as possible are equal.
Also, check those milky way shots made hand held with the E-M1 II, then take a FF and try to match that.
You mean, the one shot with an f/0.95 lens?

The guy was also shooting at ISO 12800. Half that image is probably sensor noise. ;)

And you do realize that's pretty much just a gimmick, to show how well IS works?
 
Which photographic subjects usually benefit from greater DoF? Landscape, architecture, product photography, studio work, macro.
Just about any. Sports, wildlife, event, portrait, street, kids&family ... you name it. In low light, when you are forced to use f/1.8 or f/1.2, DoF is generally sub-optimal.
Uh huh

Back in the real world, it's pretty routine to use shallow DoF for low-light events, concerts, sports and more, especially when flash is not an option, or not preferable.
No, it isn't. How do you know how people shoot ?
Because I've been involved in photography for longer than I care to admit, including doing portraits, street, events, concerts etc.

I also know the capabilities of the equipment.

And note that I'm not saying "there is NO WAY you can use smaller apertures!" Rather, this is how most people shoot, when they need to stop action, in low light, and do not want to use flash.
Me too, and that's not how most people shoot. At least the people I know. Some do, some don't, the point is you telling us how ,,most people shoot,, is jsut false
There are also lots of times with those very subjects that the photographer will prefer shallow DoF, to isolate the subject.
Which can be done with m43, just not as easy as with FF
I'm sorry, but... No, it can't.

M43 with fast primes do a pretty good job, and good enough for my own purposes. But it can't get the same shallow DoF as a fast prime on a 35mm camera, when comparing lenses with the same angle of view and same f/stop.
I didn't said that. I know the differences in DOF, and I already said, is not as easy to do with m43. I know you can't match FFs f1/1.4 or f/095 primes with m43, but you can get very shallow DOF with the right lens and knowledge.

I said shallow DOF can be done with m43 but not as easy as with FF, but since you like to argue, you tried to make it sound like I said they can match, whitch of course the can't with some lenses.
And of course, with many of those subjects, you're using tele lenses anyway, which means you're not getting a lot of DoF anyway.
That just ccontradicts your previous statement, doesn't it ?
...no, pointing out that tele lenses have shallower DoF does not contradict the fact that larger formats have shallower DoF options, when using the same angle of view and same f/stop.
That's not what you contradicted.
Sorry, but... in terms of low light, M43 may meet your needs, or offer non-IQ benefits (like lighter weight), but in terms of IQ it does not actually offer an advantage.
Yes, it does. IQ is not 100% dependant on sensor size. Lenses play a big role, what lenses are available, how fast they are, how good they are wide open, etc.
I'm sorry dude, but you are stretching it here. When making these kinds of comparisons, it makes sense to assume that as many variables as possible are equal.
Which is almost impossible. So the strech is actually to assume variables are equal.
Also, check those milky way shots made hand held with the E-M1 II, then take a FF and try to match that.
You mean, the one shot with an f/0.95 lens?

The guy was also shooting at ISO 12800. Half that image is probably sensor noise. ;)

And you do realize that's pretty much just a gimmick, to show how well IS works?
And that's just shows you're just troll.
 
You are missing nothing, although i do have to correct you about one thing. Canikon can now use stabilized glass as fast as f1.8 thanks to the new stuff from Tamron, specifically the 45mmVC and 85mmVC, which give a stabilized standard and portrait. Of course, they won't be nearly as effective as MFT IBIS is now, which can also be used on the fastest glass in MFT so advantage still MFT.

So if stuff isn't moving much, which in many portraits they are not, yea IBIS makes a huge difference. It's one reason im most excited to upgrade from my GX7 in the near future. Looking at an EM1. I will also point out that even with OIS on a DSLR, using slow SS usually ends up softening the shot from the camera vibe, while E shutter in ML removes that issue.

I have a lot of times where i shoot silent mode with portraits at slow SS, for now my OIS 42.5 f1.7 serves me. Soon better IBIS will be a welcome addition. You are missing nothing, MFT has many advantages.
 
And I have to ask, when exactly do you need more DoF in low-light situations? Concerts? No. Sports? Rarely. Events? Not so much.
Since I got my E-M1 II I've been enjoying taking photos in low light situations hand-held. So far I've done it in three environments: Harbors in the evening in Rockport and Fulton, TX; indoors such as churches; and in the evening in New Orleans.

I happened across an example that I would have wanted even more DoF than I got. The background boats in focus might have been nice. This was taken at 1/4 sec, ISO 1600.

I was pleasantly surprised that I now have a good low-light camera without having to go to FF (which I don't want to do for several reasons) which I can enjoy hand-held.



Dusk at Fulton Harbor
Dusk at Fulton Harbor

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Judy
 
I said shallow DOF can be done with m43 but not as easy as with FF, but since you like to argue, you tried to make it sound like I said they can match, whitch of course the can't with some lenses.
...yes, it pretty much is my point that you cannot get as shallow of DoF with M43 as with 35mm sensors.

Since we are comparing advantages of platforms, it pretty much makes sense to point out the things that one platform can do, that the other cannot, and vice versa.
Yes, it does. IQ is not 100% dependant on sensor size. Lenses play a big role, what lenses are available, how fast they are, how good they are wide open, etc.

I'm sorry dude, but you are stretching it here. When making these kinds of comparisons, it makes sense to assume that as many variables as possible are equal.
Which is almost impossible. So the strech is actually to assume variables are equal.
It isn't impossible at all.

M43 and 35mm both have excellent quality lenses. No problem making that comparison.

Both have fast primes with excellent performance. No problem making that comparison.

If anything, the comparisons should be less favorable to M43. It has a good lens lineup now, but it's not as extensive as Nikon or Canon.

Granted, you could do something like compare the finest M43 lenses to the crappiest 35mm you could find, but that's kind of... pathetic.
Also, check those milky way shots made hand held with the E-M1 II, then take a FF and try to match that.
You mean, the one shot with an f/0.95 lens?

The guy was also shooting at ISO 12800. Half that image is probably sensor noise. ;)

And you do realize that's pretty much just a gimmick, to show how well IS works?
And that's just shows you're just troll.
<< rolleyes >>

Astrophotography is a complex discipline that depends on extensive testing and experience with sensors; compensating for conditions like light pollution, moonlight, and other factors; deciding whether to use ISO-invariant sensors, and more. It's very different than shooting a concert or an indoor sports event.

As to matching it? We can start with the Pentax K1. 36mp, IBIS, built-in Astrotracer, built-in LEDs for night operation, more DR than M43, tons of lenses.... Sure, you need a tripod. So would anyone who actually wants to do astro.

That guy is a camera geek who wanted to show off the IS of the E-M1 ii. The idea that it's showing off the low-light capabilities of M43 is absurd.
 
Here's what you don't understand, and why we are arguing in the last posts:

You think what's important to you should be important to others, and vice versa. You tell us how ,,people shoot,, you tell us what is a gimmick and what isn't, when DOF matters and when it doesn't, how ,,X,, type of photography should be done, etc.

Different people have different opinions, different needs, different priorities, different goals, different way do do things.

From the start, all I said is that what you say is just as biased as the OP.
 
Is MTF is becoming the secret Low light Tip or am I missing something.

With the latest GH5 and M1.1 we got reliable Low Light AF.

With the latest Raw Development Software you can up the usable ISO to 6400 or even more for some shoots.

Given you need the same DOF you have to use ISO 25600 on FF.
Theoretically, assuming the same sensor technology, the same DOF should give the same results. No surprise here.
Even the Top FF Gear has a hard time to stand up with 25600 against 6400 of the latest MFT.
See above
If you can use IBIS or even Dual/Sync IS you gain at least another 1.5-2 Stops against the FF Bodys with IBIS or OIS Lens.
For a stationary subject.
So the only left advantage is when you can not use IBIS and can use thin DOF.
No, the most common mistake of all. You can shoot wide open and still have a wide DOF. DOF is more dependent on subject magnification than f-stop. Meaning, shoot the interior of say, a church with a wide angle, you'll have plenty of DOF because the subject is so large.
But to compete with the 1.2 AF Focus Lenses you need at least F2.

And with OIS there is only one F2 Canon FE 35mm lens.

Ok if we forget OIS we got a lot more, but the MFT lenses are sharp wide open while most of the FF must be stopped down.
Maybe kind of true, but really needs to be considered on a case by case basis. For example, the Canon 11-24mm F4L would need a 6MM F/2.0 MFT lens to replace it and is pretty sharp wide open.

The 11-24 is impressively sharp in the center at all focal lengths and aperture settings including at f/4. Extreme full frame corner performance is practically a match for the center performance and that fact is very impressive. The only reason to choose a narrower-than-wide-open aperture is for controlling DOF (depth of field) and to reduce vignetting.

And you need to consider those fast and cheap FF primes, like the 50MM F1.4 or 1.8. They aren't any considered exotic.
Am I missing something?
For equal DOF, all systems have about the same performance. That's a true statement. What isn't right is that wide open always equals limited DOF, and wide open FF is always less sharp than MFT.

But yeah, FF doesn't always win. What it does is give you options. No, I don't own the $2700 Canon 11-24, but if I was pro and needed it, it's there. Of course, if you don't need those options, maybe MFT is right for you.

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no, I won't return to read your witty reply!
professional cynic and contrarian: don't take it personally
http://500px.com/omearak
 
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I wish for more people like you on these forums :) Very good points, very well explained and exactly on topic. Thumbs up !
 
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The Live Bulb and Live Time functions that allow you to watch an image "develop" on Olympus camera certainly deserve a mention here.

My preference for night photography are stationary objects so M4/3 (and specifically Olympus with Live Bulb and Live Time) are perfect for me.
 
And I have to ask, when exactly do you need more DoF in low-light situations? Concerts? No. Sports? Rarely. Events? Not so much.
The amount of light does not have anything to do whether I would prefer shallow or greater DoF.
In fact in low light you are almost always sacrificing DoF for shutter speed. Meaning more DoF would be better, but you just can't afford it.
Exactly. And a larger sensor and more expensive setup does not help in this problem. FF is not worse, but it can be seen as an overkill.
 
Fast lenses help. Don't expect focus miracles with a kit lens at 42mm and f/5.6.
 
Great post!
So the only left advantage is when you can not use IBIS and can use thin DOF.
No, the most common mistake of all. You can shoot wide open and still have a wide DOF. DOF is more dependent on subject magnification than f-stop. Meaning, shoot the interior of say, a church with a wide angle, you'll have plenty of DOF because the subject is so large.
In other words, when shooting with ultra wide-angle, there is not much reason to stop down even when shooting with FF. This gives FF a clear advantage in low light.
 

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