Leica Monochrome

I admit ignorance in respect of the LM sensor but I gather the main difference, between the monochrome sensor and the polychrome sensor, is the lack of a colour filter array.

If this is correct, can the monochrome sensor differentiate between similar tones of different colours, for example: will a red, green and blue poster, with colours of a similar shade, just be one tone?

also, it states that the base ISO is increased because of the lack of a colour filter array. I can understand more light falling onto the sensor, nothing in the way, and therefore the exposure being one stop less but why does the base ISO change?

Very good question. Something interesting here>>>>

Bashir Lunat said:

Very good question. Something interesting here>>>>

http://www.red.com/learn/red-101/color-monochrome-camera-sensors

Click to expand...

Thanks for the link to a great resource. I just bookmarked a number of pages for future reading. . .

Gandolphi said:

I admit ignorance in respect of the LM sensor but I gather the main difference, between the monochrome sensor and the polychrome sensor, is the lack of a colour filter array.

If this is correct, can the monochrome sensor differentiate between similar tones of different colours, for example: will a red, green and blue poster, with colours of a similar shade, just be one tone?

Click to expand...

A monochrome sensor just measures luminosity, so it will not be able to distinguish between two different colours with the same luminosity value. That is why people use yellow /orange/red/etc filters in front of the lens, to adjust the relative luminosity from different colours.

Gandolphi said:

also, it states that the base ISO is increased because of the lack of a colour filter array. I can understand more light falling onto the sensor, nothing in the way, and therefore the exposure being one stop less but why does the base ISO change?

Click to expand...

the base iso is telling you how much light the sensor can capture before some gain is applied (or something like this, I am not aware of the exact details). If you remove the colour filter then the sensor will capture more light in the same conditions, so you need to rate it at higher iso.

Daedalus2000 said:

Gandolphi said:

I admit ignorance in respect of the LM sensor but I gather the main difference, between the monochrome sensor and the polychrome sensor, is the lack of a colour filter array.

If this is correct, can the monochrome sensor differentiate between similar tones of different colours, for example: will a red, green and blue poster, with colours of a similar shade, just be one tone?

Click to expand...

A monochrome sensor just measures luminosity, so it will not be able to distinguish between two different colours with the same luminosity value. That is why people use yellow /orange/red/etc filters in front of the lens, to adjust the relative luminosity from different colours.

Click to expand...

I assume from the bucket example in the linked article, there isn't even a bias as found in ordinary, ortho and panchromatic film emulsions.

Daedalus2000 said:

Daedalus2000 said:

also, it states that the base ISO is increased because of the lack of a colour filter array. I can understand more light falling onto the sensor, nothing in the way, and therefore the exposure being one stop less but why does the base ISO change?

Click to expand...

the base iso is telling you how much light the sensor can capture before some gain is applied (or something like this, I am not aware of the exact details). If you remove the colour filter then the sensor will capture more light in the same conditions, so you need to rate it at higher iso.

Click to expand...

the noise in the old CCD rendered the M9 unusable from 400 ASA up for

bigger enlargements.

Since Leica had a strong B&W following they needed to remedy this.

With the advent of M240 CMOS sensor the quality difference is getting smaller.

For most people it is better to convert from DNG to B&W in raw converter

as you can simulate the B&W filter effects ...

... AND change them !

DYOC said:

For most people it is better to convert from DNG to B&W in raw converter

as you can simulate the B&W filter effects ...

... AND change them !

Click to expand...

Agreed. So much more flexible and better control over the output tones. Most people, me included, do not evaluate a scene in terms of luminance values. I am sure the Monochrom Is brilliant in the right hands - just not mine !

DYOC said:

the noise in the old CCD rendered the M9 unusable from 400 ASA up for

bigger enlargements.

Click to expand...

the Monochrome has many, many advocates, such that I think your notion ignorant

the sweet ISO upper limit for the M9 is more like 640 ...this can easily be pushed 2 stops

many prefer the MM 1 with its CCD sensor to the MM 2 with the newer CMOSIS

here is a thread from LUF you may wish check out:

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/272551-mmi-vs-mmii-hypothetical/

some folks posting in that thread use both the MM1 & MM2 ...it does not surprise me that many prefer the older CCD camera's files, as I do

having more DR is not always a virtue, unless you know what to do with it & most serious photographers prefer to not produce images that scream digital

I prefer color, but there does seem to be an advantage to using a dedicated monochrome sensor for BW, though I am not unsympathetic to the advantages in post for manipulating files with the excellent converters now available

that said, many find the advantages of the MM's sufficient to warrant using color filters in lieu of doing legerdemain in post capture

I prefer controlling noise in post, not in my camera's sensor chip (CCD is inherently less noisy than CMOS, which is why astrology scientific sensors tend to still be CCD ...CMOS sensors have to heavily process the signal they get from their photon wells to produce the low noise so many crave ...ironically more add noise to these plastic images in post in an effort to emulate film)

I find posts with clearly uninformed comments like yours deplorable & perhaps marketing of a pernicious sort

--
pbase & dpreview supporter
DPR forum member since 5/2001
my PBase Galleries
"Avoid making a commotion, just as you wouldn’t stir up the water before fishing. Don’t use a flash out of respect for the natural lighting, even when there isn’t any. If these rules aren’t followed, the photographer becomes unbearably obtrusive" -- attributed to HCB

you must know a lot!

... so please show me a M9 640 ISO sample pushed 2 stops ...

but please include a shot of a Color Checker Pro with it.

_____________________________________________________________

you might be a little bit confused here in respects to CCD sensors

and higher ISO.

I use M8 and M9 at base 160 Iso and push until the sensor lines show up

and that provides better image quality then choosing higher ISO by default

Arvid and others and me have tested this out ad nausea.

______________________________________________________________

you could also use Foveon APSC -H in the same manner ... which for sure will beat the living daylights out of any 18MP CCD sensor at base ISO.

clearly the M9's files are a matter more of taste, but the original discussion was about the MM & I do believe there are advantages to be had using a camera designed for monochrome capture, despite not worth losing color option for me

an excellent technical discussion, upon which the notion of shooting low light with the M9 using iso 640 can be found here


LUF has had many detailed discussions of this blog, though they are old, as is the M9

wishing you good light & interesting subjects

Gandolphi said:

I admit ignorance in respect of the LM sensor but I gather the main difference, between the monochrome sensor and the polychrome sensor, is the lack of a colour filter array.

If this is correct, can the monochrome sensor differentiate between similar tones of different colours, for example: will a red, green and blue poster, with colours of a similar shade, just be one tone?

Click to expand...

I must admit, any thoughts of getting a monochrome have been put on hold. Any advantages are, at least as far as I am concerned, negated by the disadvantages.

Gandolphi said:

Gandolphi said:

I admit ignorance in respect of the LM sensor but I gather the main difference, between the monochrome sensor and the polychrome sensor, is the lack of a colour filter array.

If this is correct, can the monochrome sensor differentiate between similar tones of different colours, for example: will a red, green and blue poster, with colours of a similar shade, just be one tone?

Click to expand...

I must admit, any thoughts of getting a monochrome have been put on hold. Any advantages are, at least as far as I am concerned, negated by the disadvantages.

Click to expand...

A wise decision.

it all depends on your shooting style and lens preference and desired end product.

if you like the Leica form factor the original M8 is a fantastic B&W camera to get your feet wet

if you can live with a 28/2.0 lens and use Brian's Iridient Developer

if you like Af point and shoot simplicity Fuji X100xyz have it all

if you like complexity get a Sigma ... and bring a lot of time

just get any of these over the summer

then you can still get a Monochrom for x-mas

... prices are going down anyhow

DYOC said:

it all depends on your shooting style and lens preference and desired end product.

if you like the Leica form factor the original M8 is a fantastic B&W camera to get your feet wet

if you can live with a 28/2.0 lens and use Brian's Iridient Developer

if you like Af point and shoot simplicity Fuji X100xyz have it all

if you like complexity get a Sigma ... and bring a lot of time

just get any of these over the summer

then you can still get a Monochrom for x-mas

... prices are going down anyhow

Click to expand...

Use the M8 and M9 for black and white at the moment. Dedicated windows man so iridient out of the window, have knocked back the monochrom concept, can't be bothered with spending a few hundred pounds on filters and then having to keep changing them. Looks like the M10 beckons, if ever the backlog catches up..