The agony of finding the right Superzoom

Foto4x4 wrote:
I am sure in the long run Tamron will make new versions of the 18-200, 16-300 etc. for Sony E-mount APS-C. This is obviously in the future and we (me) need to complete the present situation.

I really appreciate a forum like this since I learn a lot and it helps to make decisions.
There has NEVER been a very high quality zoom lens in history in the 18-200, 16-300 range of lenses for APS-C cameras, so do not hold your breath. Unless you are willing to get two lenses for that kind of focal lengh, you will need to deal with low quality images, period.

There is no free lunch, that is why ILC cameras were created. Now, if you are willing to take a hit on IQ and noise, there are a few smaller sensor cameras with fixed zoom lenses that should work for you. If not, you will need at least two high quality zoom lenses. Sorry to be so blunt, but that is the way it is.

--
Life is short, make the best of it while you can!
http://grob.smugmug.com/
Have you shot with the 18-200 OSS ? I did not know that all my photos are low quality. Have to look at them again :-D The majority of the photos in my Flickr albums are shot with the 18-200

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Joachim
https://www.flickr.com/photos/jowul/
Sorry Joachim... I can't speak for snapa, but I have had an 18-200 OSS and it was very disappointing. I kept it only briefly. If you got a superior copy, then good for you but DXO ratings seem to bear out most of the criticisms of all three 18-200 versions in E mount.

--
Cheers,
John
Hi John,

Care to show us?

I agree with Joachim.

Perhaps adding to this. I view superzooms (and all zooms for that matter) as daytime lenses. That is, shoot at low ISO and stopped down.

Under such conditions the gap between the zoom and a high IQ prime diminishes

The inverse, shooting at lower lights, higher ISO (because of ltd aperture), and near the lens' edges (aperture, min and max FL), makes the difference increase.

The E18200, as well as the other zooms, all do fine in case 1). It is case 2) where people begin to argue. I rather use a fast prime lens for case 2).

--
Cheers,
Henry
Actually Henry, I have found a couple comparison images I made my decision to return the 18-200 with and put them in LR. Sorry about low resolution as I haven't worked out how to export the screen other than by print screen but it's clear the 18-200 at 200mm was soft compared to the kit zoom at 210. No way was this lens worth keeping for its convenience as a travel zoom with soft images.

30506b44912a4959b3a98f6a8350211a.jpg

--
Cheers,
John
Indeed, your 18-200 OSS looks very soft based on that example. Here is one example with mine: not softness there



5e13dbc3cae644e0bed3041e0f41c3bc.jpg



a3a89199eeaa4452af860d508e0b947a.jpg



1d8a21b9574c4fedbe3c87e6917e8326.jpg



49418bd05c904508a0c6558e0d22b731.jpg



0ee5c177fc4140c19bd5959738756f07.jpg

I guess, these being real photographs taken in nature, give me a better idea as to how a lens behaves. I believe that my particular lens is doing a good job in reproducing colours, focusing correctly, having a decent bokeh and a very good minimum focal distance. What else do you want from a superzoom?



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Joachim
 
Yes, Joachim, yours is clearly superior, and you are fortunate to have it. But I also think yours is not the LE version, is that correct? And that lens is the currently available new model apart from the PZ model. The LE is commonly soft and mine had very poor AF performance at 200mm (as above showed). Also, it's like the 16-70 that has its devotees and detractors. The trouble seems to be that the lens has copy variation and how do you know what you're going to get if you buy on-line or second hand? It's a lottery. Given the great bodies Sony is producing, they should put some effort into both the 16-70 and 18-200LE to remove the flaws and copy variation. It's the single biggest reason that I leave my A6300 at home most of the time. Why bother when for 95% of my shooting I'm going to get a better photo with my RX10III? Okay, prime fans wouldn't accept what I do, but when travelling, I am over carrying a bag full of lenses and two bodies. These days I take the RX10III and a RX100IV as backup and when a discrete camera is needed.

My point in an earlier post was that if you're going to carry a superzoom on an A6#00 body, you should consider the RX10III. The lens is stellar! Goes from 24mm to 600mm with excellent IQ throughout and seems to give up little to APS-C except for the bokeh fans. Its ISO performance is good to 1600, even 3200 and given the f2.4-4.0 aperture, you get a stop or two advantage over f3.5-6.3, especially at longer focal lengths. The AF is better than some would have you believe. I haven't found a single situation where the AF has let me down except when I've been careless with handling. That's rare now since I am aware of how to avoid bad shots.

In other words, a superzoom has its place, but none at the moment that I would care to carry and use on my A6300 will give me a better, cleaner photo that my RX10III.
 
Yes, Joachim, yours is clearly superior, and you are fortunate to have it. But I also think yours is not the LE version, is that correct? And that lens is the currently available new model apart from the PZ model. The LE is commonly soft and mine had very poor AF performance at 200mm (as above showed). Also, it's like the 16-70 that has its devotees and detractors. The trouble seems to be that the lens has copy variation and how do you know what you're going to get if you buy on-line or second hand? It's a lottery. Given the great bodies Sony is producing, they should put some effort into both the 16-70 and 18-200LE to remove the flaws and copy variation. It's the single biggest reason that I leave my A6300 at home most of the time. Why bother when for 95% of my shooting I'm going to get a better photo with my RX10III? Okay, prime fans wouldn't accept what I do, but when travelling, I am over carrying a bag full of lenses and two bodies. These days I take the RX10III and a RX100IV as backup and when a discrete camera is needed.

My point in an earlier post was that if you're going to carry a superzoom on an A6#00 body, you should consider the RX10III. The lens is stellar! Goes from 24mm to 600mm with excellent IQ throughout and seems to give up little to APS-C except for the bokeh fans. Its ISO performance is good to 1600, even 3200 and given the f2.4-4.0 aperture, you get a stop or two advantage over f3.5-6.3, especially at longer focal lengths. The AF is better than some would have you believe. I haven't found a single situation where the AF has let me down except when I've been careless with handling. That's rare now since I am aware of how to avoid bad shots.

In other words, a superzoom has its place, but none at the moment that I would care to carry and use on my A6300 will give me a better, cleaner photo that my RX10III.

--
Cheers,
John
You are correct John. Mine is the 18-200 OSS, not the LE. But that lens is still available new. It is the lens I use most of the time on my trips everywhere, even in the tank bag of my motorcycle. I read Ken Rockwell's review of the RX10III and his photos look great. Personally I am not interested in such a camera since I like using my manual legacy lenses from Voigtländer and Zeiss C-G



3dfd6de317fb438aa12159376f27ff5b.jpg



--
Joachim
 
Yes, Joachim, yours is clearly superior, and you are fortunate to have it. But I also think yours is not the LE version, is that correct? And that lens is the currently available new model apart from the PZ model. The LE is commonly soft and mine had very poor AF performance at 200mm (as above showed). Also, it's like the 16-70 that has its devotees and detractors. The trouble seems to be that the lens has copy variation and how do you know what you're going to get if you buy on-line or second hand? It's a lottery. Given the great bodies Sony is producing, they should put some effort into both the 16-70 and 18-200LE to remove the flaws and copy variation. It's the single biggest reason that I leave my A6300 at home most of the time. Why bother when for 95% of my shooting I'm going to get a better photo with my RX10III? Okay, prime fans wouldn't accept what I do, but when travelling, I am over carrying a bag full of lenses and two bodies. These days I take the RX10III and a RX100IV as backup and when a discrete camera is needed.

My point in an earlier post was that if you're going to carry a superzoom on an A6#00 body, you should consider the RX10III. The lens is stellar! Goes from 24mm to 600mm with excellent IQ throughout and seems to give up little to APS-C except for the bokeh fans. Its ISO performance is good to 1600, even 3200 and given the f2.4-4.0 aperture, you get a stop or two advantage over f3.5-6.3, especially at longer focal lengths. The AF is better than some would have you believe. I haven't found a single situation where the AF has let me down except when I've been careless with handling. That's rare now since I am aware of how to avoid bad shots.

In other words, a superzoom has its place, but none at the moment that I would care to carry and use on my A6300 will give me a better, cleaner photo that my RX10III.

--
Cheers,
John
You are correct John. Mine is the 18-200 OSS, not the LE. But that lens is still available new. It is the lens I use most of the time on my trips everywhere, even in the tank bag of my motorcycle. I read Ken Rockwell's review of the RX10III and his photos look great. Personally I am not interested in such a camera since I like using my manual legacy lenses from Voigtländer and Zeiss C-G

3dfd6de317fb438aa12159376f27ff5b.jpg

--
Joachim
https://www.flickr.com/photos/jowul/
That makes sense then, e.g. see DxOmark:

8980f5c2e0154b1aa19171ed7c43259c.jpg

the E18200LE consistently tests worse than the original (silver) E18200, even though the E18200LE tests significantly better than e.g. the DT18200.

You can add the E55210, which also trails the E18200LE at the long end, but matches mid range. The original E18200 betters both.

Add in the extra range of OSS compensation, and the E18200 remains impressive.

When it came out, lens correction profiles were not applied to the in camera JPG. Since then, this lens (as has the original kit lens) improved especially for OOC-JPG.

For good measure, I'l add the E18105G and E1670Z lenses which perform rather similarly to the E18200, despite what many people claim:



5e88413161914e49b4bb175b9e48e6f9.jpg

The myth that the E18200, or even the kit lenses, are substandard s simply not true.

If you want much better, consider a prime lens, and perhaps upgrade to a non-AA sensor in the A7 series cameras:



4bed76b52a0643af81d9a8a6e39891ce.jpg

Please note that these are mid range comparisons at mid aperture.

Again, when using a superzoom, I use it at its strongest points, not weakest points. Daytime, low ISO, mid aperture, the (super)zooms don't render all that bad. Add low light (high ISO bcs. slow aperture), widest aperture, max/min range, and you'll find the (super)zooms degrade more than a comparable FL-prime, while the primes have a faster aperture.

Also, you should compare post-edit. E.g. from RAW, you may have to add more sharpening and clarity to the superzoom than with a prime lens, but otherwise these lenses do fine.

I have found them to be bulky for travel, and not a good choice for low light situations.
But for sunny daytime events, they do just fine!



--
Cheers,
Henry
 
when using a superzoom, I use it at its strongest points, not weakest points. Daytime, low ISO, mid aperture, the (super)zooms don't render all that bad.

I have found them to be bulky for travel, and not a good choice for low light situations.
But for sunny daytime events, they do just fine!
For the common case of long zoom in bright daylight, mid aperture, I'm seeing people switch to P&S, especially for travel. HX90v, ZS100, G3x and the like. They provide longer range and similar IQ without the bulk.
 
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when using a superzoom, I use it at its strongest points, not weakest points. Daytime, low ISO, mid aperture, the (super)zooms don't render all that bad.

I have found them to be bulky for travel, and not a good choice for low light situations.
But for sunny daytime events, they do just fine!
For the common case of long zoom in bright daylight, mid aperture, I'm seeing people switch to P&S, especially for travel. HX90v, ZS100, G3x and the like. They provide longer range and similar IQ without the bulk.
For several years I used a TZ3 traveling in the french Alps, South East Asia, etc. Then I purchased a NEX5N and added the E18-200 OSS. When I look at the TZ3 photos now, I realize how crappy they are compared to the NEX with supper zoom. Calling it "similar IQ" is a looong stretch ;-) . Instead of a P&S I would then prefer to use my iPhone 6.
 
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LOL what in the world.... TZ3 is not among the ones I listed. It's a 10 year old camera. 10 year old DSLR's suck too. The recent crop is a whole different ballgame.
 
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LOL what in the world.... TZ3 is not among the ones I listed. It's a 10 year old camera. 10 year old DSLR's suck too. The recent crop is a whole different ballgame.
That is why I compared it to the NEX5N which is about 7-8 years old
 
Any way you cut it a super zoom is trying to be all things and it just can't.

A super zoom can't be a fixed aperture it would be too big and expensive as well

if IQ is number one never buy a super zoom no matter the system dslr or not you need 2-3 lenses or even better prime lenses

however after this I might also consider the bridge camera class like the Rx-10 and the like Panasonic Fz 2500 and so forth
 
LOL what in the world.... TZ3 is not among the ones I listed. It's a 10 year old camera. 10 year old DSLR's suck too. The recent crop is a whole different ballgame.
That is why I compared it to the NEX5N which is about 7-8 years old

--
Joachim
https://www.flickr.com/photos/jowul/
I use the A5100 plus E1650 regularly for daytime snaps. Bigger than a cellphone, but ultra convenient to take.

I have the new Galaxy S8+, which is surprisingly usable indoors with its mutli-shot, but it's images, although impressive, are soft and heavily NR then.

The current crop of APS-C sensors still are far ahead.

Nighttime, I take FF, with a fast prime. Also males a big difference.

I looked at RX10 and RX10 images online, and they don't do it for me.

Bright outdoor sun, yes, even a cell phone pic can be impressive. But limited range, both in ISO and FL/crop. Same for DR.

--
Cheers,
Henry
 
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You are correct John. Mine is the 18-200 OSS, not the LE. But that lens is still available new. It is the lens I use most of the time on my trips everywhere, even in the tank bag of my motorcycle. I read Ken Rockwell's review of the RX10III and his photos look great. Personally I am not interested in such a camera since I like using my manual legacy lenses from Voigtländer and Zeiss C-G
 
Yes, Joachim, yours is clearly superior, and you are fortunate to have it. But I also think yours is not the LE version, is that correct? And that lens is the currently available new model apart from the PZ model. The LE is commonly soft and mine had very poor AF performance at 200mm (as above showed). Also, it's like the 16-70 that has its devotees and detractors. The trouble seems to be that the lens has copy variation and how do you know what you're going to get if you buy on-line or second hand? It's a lottery. Given the great bodies Sony is producing, they should put some effort into both the 16-70 and 18-200LE to remove the flaws and copy variation. It's the single biggest reason that I leave my A6300 at home most of the time. Why bother when for 95% of my shooting I'm going to get a better photo with my RX10III? Okay, prime fans wouldn't accept what I do, but when travelling, I am over carrying a bag full of lenses and two bodies. These days I take the RX10III and a RX100IV as backup and when a discrete camera is needed.

My point in an earlier post was that if you're going to carry a superzoom on an A6#00 body, you should consider the RX10III. The lens is stellar! Goes from 24mm to 600mm with excellent IQ throughout and seems to give up little to APS-C except for the bokeh fans. Its ISO performance is good to 1600, even 3200 and given the f2.4-4.0 aperture, you get a stop or two advantage over f3.5-6.3, especially at longer focal lengths. The AF is better than some would have you believe. I haven't found a single situation where the AF has let me down except when I've been careless with handling. That's rare now since I am aware of how to avoid bad shots.

In other words, a superzoom has its place, but none at the moment that I would care to carry and use on my A6300 will give me a better, cleaner photo that my RX10III.

--
Cheers,
John
You are correct John. Mine is the 18-200 OSS, not the LE. But that lens is still available new. It is the lens I use most of the time on my trips everywhere, even in the tank bag of my motorcycle. I read Ken Rockwell's review of the RX10III and his photos look great. Personally I am not interested in such a camera since I like using my manual legacy lenses from Voigtländer and Zeiss C-G

3dfd6de317fb438aa12159376f27ff5b.jpg

--
Joachim
https://www.flickr.com/photos/jowul/
That makes sense then, e.g. see DxOmark:

8980f5c2e0154b1aa19171ed7c43259c.jpg

the E18200LE consistently tests worse than the original (silver) E18200, even though the E18200LE tests significantly better than e.g. the DT18200.

You can add the E55210, which also trails the E18200LE at the long end, but matches mid range. The original E18200 betters both.

Add in the extra range of OSS compensation, and the E18200 remains impressive.

When it came out, lens correction profiles were not applied to the in camera JPG. Since then, this lens (as has the original kit lens) improved especially for OOC-JPG.

For good measure, I'l add the E18105G and E1670Z lenses which perform rather similarly to the E18200, despite what many people claim:

5e88413161914e49b4bb175b9e48e6f9.jpg

The myth that the E18200, or even the kit lenses, are substandard s simply not true.

If you want much better, consider a prime lens, and perhaps upgrade to a non-AA sensor in the A7 series cameras:

4bed76b52a0643af81d9a8a6e39891ce.jpg

Please note that these are mid range comparisons at mid aperture.

Again, when using a superzoom, I use it at its strongest points, not weakest points. Daytime, low ISO, mid aperture, the (super)zooms don't render all that bad. Add low light (high ISO bcs. slow aperture), widest aperture, max/min range, and you'll find the (super)zooms degrade more than a comparable FL-prime, while the primes have a faster aperture.

Also, you should compare post-edit. E.g. from RAW, you may have to add more sharpening and clarity to the superzoom than with a prime lens, but otherwise these lenses do fine.

I have found them to be bulky for travel, and not a good choice for low light situations.
But for sunny daytime events, they do just fine!

--
Cheers,
Henry
Henry, the DXOmark results show the E55-210 to be better, albeit closely, than the LE but better than both 18-200 models at 50/55 and 100 at f8... And personally, I don't see any reason to be advocating primes in this thread. A bag full of primes or midrange zooms isn't going to suit most superzoom users, ie as an all in one travel zoom.



4e650be38c7b4ad19ca8c0c82714f0b4.jpg



31ecddebe7db4394b3b32f2e31330189.jpg



cb9ba8dec60e4a1b90d544efd142cf49.jpg



--
Cheers,
John
 
You are correct John. Mine is the 18-200 OSS, not the LE. But that lens is still available new. It is the lens I use most of the time on my trips everywhere, even in the tank bag of my motorcycle. I read Ken Rockwell's review of the RX10III and his photos look great. Personally I am not interested in such a camera since I like using my manual legacy lenses from Voigtländer and Zeiss C-G
 
The compacts have made a lot more progress during the time period than the APS-C cameras though. In any case, it might be worth getting up to date on the latest. Just saying.
 
The compacts have made a lot more progress during the time period than the APS-C cameras though. In any case, it might be worth getting up to date on the latest. Just saying.
So true... I spent most of last year denying that a 1" sensor could possibly be good enough for my standards. Bear in mind I started 2016 with a A7 and A6000 and kit full of FE, E and legacy glass. The A7 was first to go, replaced by an A6300.

Then I bought a TZ110 (ZS100) for a trip and ended up using it for most of my shooting. That was enough to convince me to try the RX10III. What a revelation! A word of advice though... you have to use it for a couple weeks to get its nuances and that all the ways you shoot with a DSLR or mirrorless ILC need some adjustments. Once I got "it", I haven't felt the need to use my A6300. Only keeping it in case I walk up sometime to find I'm dreaming! :-D
 
Then I bought a TZ110 (ZS100) for a trip and ended up using it for most of my shooting. That was enough to convince me to try the RX10III. What a revelation!
Interesting progression. Sounds like you needed longer range and didn't mind more bulk. Did you also consider the HX90v? Similar range as the RX10III but keeping the pocketable size of the Panasonic 10x (hate the multiple names scheme!).

Sensor size was of course reduced but today's phone sensors have also closed a surprising amount of gap with larger sensors.

Probably not going to happen but I'd like to see a 1" 10x zoom RX competitor to the Panasonic.

Guessing the A6300 would still come in handy for indoor, museums, and maybe shallow DOF portraits.
 
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Then I bought a TZ110 (ZS100) for a trip and ended up using it for most of my shooting. That was enough to convince me to try the RX10III. What a revelation!
Interesting progression. Sounds like you needed longer range and didn't mind more bulk.
No for the most part I can handle the RX10III. But the TZ110 was ideal for using on a bus and cruise tour we did in Canada.
Did you also consider the HX90v? Similar range as the RX10III but keeping the pocketable size of the Panasonic 10x (hate the multiple names scheme!).
Yes I did. In fact bought one and used for a little while in Tasmania earlier last year but the lens let it down as well as very grainy images in anything less than bright light. Concept gets a tick, but Lumix has this compact type well worked out.
Probably not going to happen but I'd like to see a 1" 10x zoom RX competitor to the Panasonic.
Agree. That's what the next update to the RX100s should be.
Guessing the A6300 would still come in handy for indoor, museums, and maybe shallow DOF portraits.
Indeed. If funds were short, I'd sell it, but fortunately I can afford my hobby and have an understanding Treasury Secretary!

--
Cheers,
John
 
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I sold my Tamron 16-300 after I purchased my Canon 80D rather than getting it upgraded for Canon's new liveview. Now I really miss it though the IQ was a real compromise under most conditions. Now am looking at the following:
Any superzoom you choose will have a real IQ compromise under most conditions. If superzooms didn't have those compromises, why would anyone buy primes or wide/tele zooms?
I realize this type of post can be boring and most here have or are in the same situation but hopefully this gives me an additional perspective.
I think you should accept the compromises of the superzooms in general and then choose from any you listed that you like the ergonomics of. I have used the Sony E 18-200 (silver) and, in general, I liked it.

That said, I sold mine because I don't like the slow variable aperture, so I would rather take a 70-200 F4 and a small 35mm prime than attempt to use a superzoom. A simple holster can manage the 70-200 mounted to body while a tiny lens pouch attached to the strap can hold the prime. When you mount the prime, the long lens stays in the holster, etc.
The other options are to have two lenses (eg. Sony 28-70 OSS with 70-200 and 1.4 TC). This gives better IQ but lots of switching lenses and potentially getting missed shots. I need good IQ but not always great IQ.
On the wider end, I think a prime is fine, I don't think you need the 28-70, just a prime and the 70-200 in my opinion.

Good luck.
 
The compacts have made a lot more progress during the time period than the APS-C cameras though. In any case, it might be worth getting up to date on the latest. Just saying.
So true... I spent most of last year denying that a 1" sensor could possibly be good enough for my standards. Bear in mind I started 2016 with a A7 and A6000 and kit full of FE, E and legacy glass. The A7 was first to go, replaced by an A6300.

Then I bought a TZ110 (ZS100) for a trip and ended up using it for most of my shooting. That was enough to convince me to try the RX10III. What a revelation! A word of advice though... you have to use it for a couple weeks to get its nuances and that all the ways you shoot with a DSLR or mirrorless ILC need some adjustments. Once I got "it", I haven't felt the need to use my A6300. Only keeping it in case I walk up sometime to find I'm dreaming! :-D
 
The compacts have made a lot more progress during the time period than the APS-C cameras though. In any case, it might be worth getting up to date on the latest. Just saying.
So true... I spent most of last year denying that a 1" sensor could possibly be good enough for my standards. Bear in mind I started 2016 with a A7 and A6000 and kit full of FE, E and legacy glass. The A7 was first to go, replaced by an A6300.

Then I bought a TZ110 (ZS100) for a trip and ended up using it for most of my shooting. That was enough to convince me to try the RX10III. What a revelation! A word of advice though... you have to use it for a couple weeks to get its nuances and that all the ways you shoot with a DSLR or mirrorless ILC need some adjustments. Once I got "it", I haven't felt the need to use my A6300. Only keeping it in case I walk up sometime to find I'm dreaming! :-D
 

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