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lickity split

lickity split

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I picked up a 16 stop nd filter and plan on starting to do some long exposures (5-10 min. ) but would like to know if I'm better off using "LENR" or not , does it even matter if I'm shooting in raw, I was going to shoot in raw & jpeg and use the Camranger ,Ipad mini to review images on the spot. ( jpeg is for the Camranger to transfer to ipad.

Is it save to do a few of these long exposures "back to back" , do things heat up to much inside the body where damage can occur, or will it start to show in the images??
 
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B
lickity split said:
I picked up a 16 stop nd filter and plan on starting to do some long exposures (5-10 min. ) but would like to know if I'm better off using "LENR" or not , does it even matter if I'm shooting in raw, I was going to shoot in raw & jpeg and use the Camranger ,Ipad mini to review images on the spot. ( jpeg is for the Camranger to transfer to ipad.

Is it save to do a few of these long exposures "back to back" , do things heat up to much inside the body where damage can occur, or will it start to show in the images??
Click to expand...
lickity split said:
I picked up a 16 stop nd filter and plan on starting to do some long exposures (5-10 min. ) but would like to know if I'm better off using "LENR" or not , does it even matter if I'm shooting in raw, I was going to shoot in raw & jpeg and use the Camranger ,Ipad mini to review images on the spot. ( jpeg is for the Camranger to transfer to ipad.

Is it save to do a few of these long exposures "back to back" , do things heat up to much inside the body where damage can occur, or will it start to show in the images??
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Solution
beatboxa said:
lickity split said:
I picked up a 16 stop nd filter and plan on starting to do some long exposures (5-10 min. ) but would like to know if I'm better off using "LENR" or not , does it even matter if I'm shooting in raw, I was going to shoot in raw & jpeg and use the Camranger ,Ipad mini to review images on the spot. ( jpeg is for the Camranger to transfer to ipad.

Is it save to do a few of these long exposures "back to back" , do things heat up to much inside the body where damage can occur, or will it start to show in the images??
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Re being safe: yes. Bear in mind the camera can shoot video for longer periods.

But bear in mind (in terms of back to back images) that each one with LENR will take the same amount of time for the noise reduction exposure, so a 10 minute exposure takes 20 minutes (some older cameras it was reduced, but if you are on the D8x0 it should be the same length).

It is possible but perhaps not desirable to do this another way -- you should half your images with LENR off, then taken an exposure with the lens covered (it must be REALLY covered, viewfinder cover, etc. -- best to stuff the whole camera in a lightproof bag if it's bright), then shoot the other half.

This lets you shoot full speed. Then you go into photoshop, open the black frame and light frame as a layer, and subtract the black from the light (set to difference).

This is basically what the camera is doing internally. It is not as good as (1) you have to make very sure it is really dark, no light leaks anywhere, and (2) the noise changes over time as it heats up or cools down, so this "middle of the set of shots" is an average, whereas shooting one immediately after each shot is more accurate. But it saves a bunch of time if you need a bunch of shots. It's how astrophotographers generally do it.

Good luck.

Linwood
 
lickity split said:
I picked up a 16 stop nd filter and plan on starting to do some long exposures (5-10 min. ) but would like to know if I'm better off using "LENR" or not , does it even matter if I'm shooting in raw, I was going to shoot in raw & jpeg and use the Camranger ,Ipad mini to review images on the spot. ( jpeg is for the Camranger to transfer to ipad.

Is it save to do a few of these long exposures "back to back" , do things heat up to much inside the body where damage can occur, or will it start to show in the images??
Click to expand...
 
I think it is definitely best to use the LENR when possible. The problem comes when trying to get the shot nailed when the light is changing rapidly or disappearing on you though. So if you didn't get the shot correct the first time, waiting an extra 10 minutes for the LENR might mean not getting the shot at all.
 
Ferguson said:
Re being safe: yes. Bear in mind the camera can shoot video for longer periods.

But bear in mind (in terms of back to back images) that each one with LENR will take the same amount of time for the noise reduction exposure, so a 10 minute exposure takes 20 minutes (some older cameras it was reduced, but if you are on the D8x0 it should be the same length).

It is possible but perhaps not desirable to do this another way -- you should half your images with LENR off, then taken an exposure with the lens covered (it must be REALLY covered, viewfinder cover, etc. -- best to stuff the whole camera in a lightproof bag if it's bright), then shoot the other half.

This lets you shoot full speed. Then you go into photoshop, open the black frame and light frame as a layer, and subtract the black from the light (set to difference).

This is basically what the camera is doing internally. It is not as good as (1) you have to make very sure it is really dark, no light leaks anywhere, and (2) the noise changes over time as it heats up or cools down, so this "middle of the set of shots" is an average, whereas shooting one immediately after each shot is more accurate. But it saves a bunch of time if you need a bunch of shots. It's how astrophotographers generally do it.

Good luck.

Linwood
Click to expand...
Regarding video yes I know that and i dont worry about firing off 500-1000 images at an outing but I never tried an exposure that long before and just thought I'd ask first just to be safe,

Photoshop is above my skill set I'll stick with the in camera LENR thank you though...
 
agrumpyoldsod said:
lickity split said:
I picked up a 16 stop nd filter and plan on starting to do some long exposures (5-10 min. ) but would like to know if I'm better off using "LENR" or not , does it even matter if I'm shooting in raw, I was going to shoot in raw & jpeg and use the Camranger ,Ipad mini to review images on the spot. ( jpeg is for the Camranger to transfer to ipad.

Is it save to do a few of these long exposures "back to back" , do things heat up to much inside the body where damage can occur, or will it start to show in the images??
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Ernie Misner said:
I think it is definitely best to use the LENR when possible. The problem comes when trying to get the shot nailed when the light is changing rapidly or disappearing on you though. So if you didn't get the shot correct the first time, waiting an extra 10 minutes for the LENR might mean not getting the shot at all.
Click to expand...
 
agrumpyoldsod said:
lickity split said:
I picked up a 16 stop nd filter and plan on starting to do some long exposures (5-10 min. ) but would like to know if I'm better off using "LENR" or not , does it even matter if I'm shooting in raw, ...
Click to expand...
Long Exposure Noise Reduction is the only function that actually modifies RAW images in camera.

...
Click to expand...
There are other settings that affect raw data.

The most obvious is High ISO NR.
 
lickity split said:
Ernie Misner said:
I think it is definitely best to use the LENR when possible. The problem comes when trying to get the shot nailed when the light is changing rapidly or disappearing on you though. So if you didn't get the shot correct the first time, waiting an extra 10 minutes for the LENR might mean not getting the shot at all.
Click to expand...
I thought about that it kinda means instead of getting 3-4 shots in 30 minutes to being able to get just 2 shots and the camera working that much harder, I went out last night just to try a few with a 9 stop filter (15-30 sec. exp) just to make sure I had all the settings right before trying the 16 stop. Approaching sundown lighting does change quick.. :-|
Click to expand...
I'd recommend you check out the response here . That does work and does pretty much the same thing Nikon does automatically, and it's actually very, very simple to do. Here are the steps I'd recommend:
  • Take your long exposure(s).
  • For the last shot, cover the viewfinder & lens (or put your lens cap on), and take a black image for the same shutter speed as your exposures
  • In photoshop (or whatever else you use), pull in this "black frame." as a new layer over each of your images
  • Change the layer type to "subtract."
  • Merge or flatten the image (combine the layers).
That's it.
 
j_photo said:
bclaff said:
agrumpyoldsod said:
lickity split said:
I picked up a 16 stop nd filter and plan on starting to do some long exposures (5-10 min. ) but would like to know if I'm better off using "LENR" or not , does it even matter if I'm shooting in raw, ...
Click to expand...
Long Exposure Noise Reduction is the only function that actually modifies RAW images in camera.

...
Click to expand...
There are other settings that affect raw data.

The most obvious is High ISO NR.
Click to expand...
Everything that I've read says that high iso noise reduction does not change the raw file.
Click to expand...
Including my statement ? :-)

In any case, not true for sure. Easily proven with a program like RawDigger.
 
bclaff said:
agrumpyoldsod said:
lickity split said:
I picked up a 16 stop nd filter and plan on starting to do some long exposures (5-10 min. ) but would like to know if I'm better off using "LENR" or not , does it even matter if I'm shooting in raw, ...
Click to expand...
Long Exposure Noise Reduction is the only function that actually modifies RAW images in camera.

...
Click to expand...
There are other settings that affect raw data.

The most obvious is High ISO NR.
Click to expand...
Bill, I think this statement needs some expansion and qualification, such as specifying the ISO range where this is seen for at least one example camera.
 
lickity split said:
I picked up a 16 stop nd filter and plan on starting to do some long exposures (5-10 min. ) but would like to know if I'm better off using "LENR" or not , does it even matter if I'm shooting in raw, I was going to shoot in raw & jpeg and use the Camranger ,Ipad mini to review images on the spot. ( jpeg is for the Camranger to transfer to ipad.

Is it save to do a few of these long exposures "back to back" , do things heat up to much inside the body where damage can occur, or will it start to show in the images??
Click to expand...
It is safe. I've left cameras operating for many hours almost continuously, such as for capturing meteors. However, the electronics does heat up, and the noise signature will gradually increase after many long exposures.

If you are taking many images like this, it's better use of your time, to take a single black frame manually around the middle of the session, then use third-party black-frame subtraction applications instead of the in-camera LENR.
 
Marianne Oelund said:
bclaff said:
agrumpyoldsod said:
lickity split said:
I picked up a 16 stop nd filter and plan on starting to do some long exposures (5-10 min. ) but would like to know if I'm better off using "LENR" or not , does it even matter if I'm shooting in raw, ...
Click to expand...
Long Exposure Noise Reduction is the only function that actually modifies RAW images in camera.

...
Click to expand...
There are other settings that affect raw data.

The most obvious is High ISO NR.
Click to expand...
Bill, I think this statement needs some expansion and qualification, such as specifying the ISO range where this is seen for at least one example camera.
Click to expand...
Marianne, thanks for chiming in.

For some cameras, perhaps most, the High ISO NR setting is metadata and might only be applied to the in camera jpeg or by later raw processing.

However when collecting raw files for sensor analysis I have encountered times when my collaborator forgot to change this setting and it made a difference (requiring a new set of data with the setting Off).
I don't recollect and specifics at this time.
To be safe I always have people turn it off.

So, to be fair, a blanket statement either way is wrong and I should have said:

"There are other settings that may affect raw data."

Regards,
 
bclaff said:
Marianne Oelund said:
bclaff said:
agrumpyoldsod said:
lickity split said:
I picked up a 16 stop nd filter and plan on starting to do some long exposures (5-10 min. ) but would like to know if I'm better off using "LENR" or not , does it even matter if I'm shooting in raw, ...
Click to expand...
Long Exposure Noise Reduction is the only function that actually modifies RAW images in camera.

...
Click to expand...
There are other settings that affect raw data.

The most obvious is High ISO NR.
Click to expand...
Bill, I think this statement needs some expansion and qualification, such as specifying the ISO range where this is seen for at least one example camera.
Click to expand...
Marianne, thanks for chiming in.

For some cameras, perhaps most, the High ISO NR setting is metadata and might only be applied to the in camera jpeg or by later raw processing.

However when collecting raw files for sensor analysis I have encountered times when my collaborator forgot to change this setting and it made a difference (requiring a new set of data with the setting Off).
I don't recollect and specifics at this time.
Click to expand...
If I recall correctly, the D3/s applies the hot-pixel suppression regardless of shutter speed, when ISO settings of 25K or higher are used; it helps to suppress impulse noise. There are probably other examples where Nikon have done this. I never checked the D4, but could have a look at the D5.

However, in the case of the D3 at least, it isn't dependent on whether or not High-ISO NR is enabled, i.e., the user can't switch it off.
 
Marianne Oelund said:
bclaff said:
Marianne Oelund said:
bclaff said:
agrumpyoldsod said:
lickity split said:
I picked up a 16 stop nd filter and plan on starting to do some long exposures (5-10 min. ) but would like to know if I'm better off using "LENR" or not , does it even matter if I'm shooting in raw, ...
Click to expand...
Long Exposure Noise Reduction is the only function that actually modifies RAW images in camera.

...
Click to expand...
There are other settings that affect raw data.

The most obvious is High ISO NR.
Click to expand...
Bill, I think this statement needs some expansion and qualification, such as specifying the ISO range where this is seen for at least one example camera.
Click to expand...
Marianne, thanks for chiming in.

For some cameras, perhaps most, the High ISO NR setting is metadata and might only be applied to the in camera jpeg or by later raw processing.

However when collecting raw files for sensor analysis I have encountered times when my collaborator forgot to change this setting and it made a difference (requiring a new set of data with the setting Off).
I don't recollect and specifics at this time.
Click to expand...
If I recall correctly, the D3/s applies the hot-pixel suppression regardless of shutter speed, when ISO settings of 25K or higher are used; it helps to suppress impulse noise. There are probably other examples where Nikon have done this. I never checked the D4, but could have a look at the D5.

However, in the case of the D3 at least, it isn't dependent on whether or not High-ISO NR is enabled, i.e., the user can't switch it off.
Click to expand...
Sure. High ISO NR is not unique to Nikon, as I recall it was another brand that I had difficulty with so perhaps it's true that Nikon High ISO NR never modifies the raw.
(Sometimes I forget which forum I'm in :-) )

Regards,
 
bclaff said:
j_photo said:
bclaff said:
agrumpyoldsod said:
lickity split said:
I picked up a 16 stop nd filter and plan on starting to do some long exposures (5-10 min. ) but would like to know if I'm better off using "LENR" or not , does it even matter if I'm shooting in raw, ...
Click to expand...
Long Exposure Noise Reduction is the only function that actually modifies RAW images in camera.

...
Click to expand...
There are other settings that affect raw data.

The most obvious is High ISO NR.
Click to expand...
Everything that I've read says that high iso noise reduction does not change the raw file.
Click to expand...
Including my statement ? :-)

In any case, not true for sure. Easily proven with a program like RawDigger.
Click to expand...
 
beatboxa said:
lickity split said:
Ernie Misner said:
I think it is definitely best to use the LENR when possible. The problem comes when trying to get the shot nailed when the light is changing rapidly or disappearing on you though. So if you didn't get the shot correct the first time, waiting an extra 10 minutes for the LENR might mean not getting the shot at all.
Click to expand...
I thought about that it kinda means instead of getting 3-4 shots in 30 minutes to being able to get just 2 shots and the camera working that much harder, I went out last night just to try a few with a 9 stop filter (15-30 sec. exp) just to make sure I had all the settings right before trying the 16 stop. Approaching sundown lighting does change quick.. :-|
Click to expand...
I'd recommend you check out the response here . That does work and does pretty much the same thing Nikon does automatically, and it's actually very, very simple to do. Here are the steps I'd recommend:
  • Take your long exposure(s).
  • For the last shot, cover the viewfinder & lens (or put your lens cap on), and take a black image for the same shutter speed as your exposures
  • In photoshop (or whatever else you use), pull in this "black frame." as a new layer over each of your images
  • Change the layer type to "subtract."
  • Merge or flatten the image (combine the layers).
That's it.
Click to expand...
Thanks , I use LR which is simple enough for me to use PS is way,way out of my league...
 
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