Sony big big mistake - no troll -

NordicYann

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Like a bunch of others, I am going to buy a 300D even if I still believe that the F828 in most aspects is a camera that would suit me better.

The only reason why I will buy the 300D and not the F828 is it superior image quality at higher ISO. Sony made a big mistake in optimising its new sensor to support the highest number of pixels possible instead of keeping the same number of pixel and improving is ISO capability.

That said if Sony come back in a year or two with a F838 with 4/5 Mpix and good image quality even at 1600 ISO, there will be a 300D on second-hand market.

As far I am concerned Sony got it right with the CF support and the 3:2 format- too bad for the sensor-
Yann
 
There are many who share your opinion.

Only time and market performance will tell the real story of what users at large really think.

--

Ulysses
 
yep it's that 'better' pixels .vs. 'more' pixels thingy again.
Let's just say 6M better pixels are more than 8M pixels...
hehe
NordicYann wrote:
Like a bunch of others, I am going to buy a 300D even if I still
believe that the F828 in most aspects is a camera that would suit
me better.

The only reason why I will buy the 300D and not the F828 is it
superior image quality at higher ISO. Sony made a big mistake in
optimising its new sensor to support the highest number of pixels
possible instead of keeping the same number of pixel and improving
is ISO capability.

That said if Sony come back in a year or two with a F838 with 4/5
Mpix and good image quality even at 1600 ISO, there will be a 300D
on second-hand market.

As far I am concerned Sony got it right with the CF support and the
3:2 format- too bad for the sensor-
Yann
 
If image quality is so important to you, have you thought about making daguerreotypes? A glance at the history of photo technology will reveal that each time there's been a technology change, from daguerreotype to ambrotype, to wet plate, to dry plate and so on up to 35mm, there have been those who said there was an unacceptable loss of image quality with the new technology. Now we're hearing it again from the film crowd and the slr crowd. IMHO, history shows that image quality is mutable, while it's the technology that wins the day. I have a small collection of daguerreotypes and I can assure you that what others have said about the process is true, it's the ultimate in image quality. But I'm not going to make daguerreotypes... I like digital infrared images


The only reason why I will buy the 300D and not the F828 is it
superior image quality at higher ISO.
--
JohnK
 
Like a bunch of others, I am going to buy a 300D even if I still
believe that the F828 in most aspects is a camera that would suit
me better.

The only reason why I will buy the 300D and not the F828 is it
superior image quality at higher ISO. Sony made a big mistake in
optimising its new sensor to support the highest number of pixels
possible instead of keeping the same number of pixel and improving
is ISO capability.
The real mistake would have been to ignore pixels densities, something that they have already proven. just to attempt to create a new, cleaner 4-5 megapixels sensor and fail. Sony would be a fool if they aren't already trying to win the war on noise. We are fools for thinking that they are ignoring the noise. Eveyone seems to think that if you simply make the sensor bigger then you noise woes will be solved. It hasn't seemed to be all that revelational when looking at other CCD DSLR's.
That said if Sony come back in a year or two with a F838 with 4/5
Mpix and good image quality even at 1600 ISO, there will be a 300D
on second-hand market.

As far I am concerned Sony got it right with the CF support and the
3:2 format- too bad for the sensor-
Yann
--
TurboTed

(It's easier just being insane than acting insane)
 
Like a bunch of others, I am going to buy a 300D even if I still
believe that the F828 in most aspects is a camera that would suit
me better.
=== SAME TO ME
The only reason why I will buy the 300D and not the F828 is it
superior image quality at higher ISO.
== IT DEPENDS WHAT IS MORE IMPORTANT FOR THE BUYER
Sony made a big mistake in
optimising its new sensor to support the highest number of pixels
possible instead of keeping the same number of pixel and improving
is ISO capability.
== Unfortunately I must agree. 5 MB suit me fine if Sony improves ISO capability. But wait for photo example... maybe we all will be SURPRISED.
That said if Sony come back in a year or two with a F838 with 4/5
Mpix
===== don't think so.
and good image quality even at 1600 ISO,
=== be sure
there will be a 300D
on second-hand market.
======yes but it will be " the old one " without the latest improvments
( who knows what it be ) ;-))
As far I am concerned Sony got it right with the CF support and the
3:2 format- too bad for the sensor-
== Truly I don,t know. Tech is my weakest point ;-(
===
===== TIME WILL TELL
--
Ernet/ Tenre at work
 
Like a bunch of others, I am going to buy a 300D even if I still
believe that the F828 in most aspects is a camera that would suit
me better.
{ the changed text is below }
===It was; SAME TO ME.
=== It should be: Ain't gonna buy 300D. Except hight ISO noise
( maybe NOT SO BIG ) and some other reasons 828 suit me fine
The only reason why I will buy the 300D and not the F828 is it
superior image quality at higher ISO.
== IT DEPENDS WHAT IS MORE IMPORTANT FOR THE BUYER

Sony made a big mistake in optimising its new sensor to support the highest number of pixels possible instead of keeping the same number of pixel and improving is ISO capability.
== Unfortunately I must agree. 5 MB suit me fine if Sony improves
ISO capability. But wait for photo example... maybe we all will be
SURPRISED.
That said if Sony come back in a year or two with a F838 with 4/5
Mpix
===== don't think so.
and good image quality even at 1600 ISO,
=== be sure
there will be a 300D on second-hand market.
======yes but it will be " the old one " without the latest
improvments( who knows what it be ) ;-))
As far I am concerned Sony got it right with the CF support and the
3:2 format- too bad for the sensor-
== Truly I don,t know. Tech is my weakest point ;-(
===== ANYWAY TIME ( as always ) WILL TELL
--
Ernet/ Tenre at work
 
At least in good light, I think we'll see the F828 perform quite well in comparison to a camera with a qualitatively better set of of pixels. Good light is a great equalizer for the small sensor. But it's when you get into poor lighting that things start to get dicey.
yep it's that 'better' pixels .vs. 'more' pixels thingy again.
Let's just say 6M better pixels are more than 8M pixels...
hehe
--

Ulysses
 
At least in good light, I think we'll see the F828 perform quite
well in comparison to a camera with a qualitatively better set of
of pixels. Good light is a great equalizer for the small sensor.
Unfortunately shadows exist where good light exists also and the
300D will excel here revealing very clean pixels with great dynamic
range.... the F828 with its teenie sensor will....well..... we'll see :-)
But it's when you get into poor lighting that things start to get
dicey.
yep it's that 'better' pixels .vs. 'more' pixels thingy again.
Let's just say 6M better pixels are more than 8M pixels...
hehe
--

Ulysses
 
Like a bunch of others, I am going to buy a 300D even if I still
believe that the F828 in most aspects is a camera that would suit
me better.

The only reason why I will buy the 300D and not the F828 is it
superior image quality at higher ISO. Sony made a big mistake in
optimising its new sensor to support the highest number of pixels
possible instead of keeping the same number of pixel and improving
is ISO capability.

That said if Sony come back in a year or two with a F838 with 4/5
Mpix and good image quality even at 1600 ISO, there will be a 300D
on second-hand market.

As far I am concerned Sony got it right with the CF support and the
3:2 format- too bad for the sensor-
Yann
--
Amazing what we can do with just three crayons, red green and blue!
http://yourbattlecreek.com/dave/
 
Maybe onscreen this will make a bigger difference.

But a print from an ISO 100 (and maybe even ISO 200) shot from an F717 or F828 isn't going to reveal much difference in the shadows than a 300D or 10D. At least in most cases (heheh... gotta leave myself some wiggle room there). :-)
Unfortunately shadows exist where good light exists also and the
300D will excel here revealing very clean pixels with great dynamic
range.... the F828 with its teenie sensor will....well..... we'll
see :-)
--

Ulysses
 
...at one to one on the screen you might see it, but when properly reduced to a normal viewing size, say 500 or 600 pixels on a side...you just can't tell the darn things apart very easily.

And thats comparing the 10D to the 717....Canon didn't improve anything, but its possible the Sony is much improved.

dave
But a print from an ISO 100 (and maybe even ISO 200) shot from an
F717 or F828 isn't going to reveal much difference in the shadows
than a 300D or 10D. At least in most cases (heheh... gotta leave
myself some wiggle room there). :-)
Unfortunately shadows exist where good light exists also and the
300D will excel here revealing very clean pixels with great dynamic
range.... the F828 with its teenie sensor will....well..... we'll
see :-)
--

Ulysses
--
Amazing what we can do with just three crayons, red green and blue!
http://yourbattlecreek.com/dave/
 
that 300D image can take a hellalot more image tweaking in
PS or during RAW conversion especially with regards to sharpening
plus it will allow much better super-sized prints- not that I'm
personally into those myself as they... uh....er... scare me the heck
out of me (!) lol
David A. Melges wrote:
...at one to one on the screen you might see it, but when properly
reduced to a normal viewing size, say 500 or 600 pixels on a
side...you just can't tell the darn things apart very easily.

And thats comparing the 10D to the 717....Canon didn't improve
anything, but its possible the Sony is much improved.

dave
But a print from an ISO 100 (and maybe even ISO 200) shot from an
F717 or F828 isn't going to reveal much difference in the shadows
than a 300D or 10D. At least in most cases (heheh... gotta leave
myself some wiggle room there). :-)
Unfortunately shadows exist where good light exists also and the
300D will excel here revealing very clean pixels with great dynamic
range.... the F828 with its teenie sensor will....well..... we'll
see :-)
--

Ulysses
--
Amazing what we can do with just three crayons, red green and blue!
http://yourbattlecreek.com/dave/
 
At least in good light, I think we'll see the F828 perform quite
well in comparison to a camera with a qualitatively better set of
of pixels. Good light is a great equalizer for the small sensor.
Unfortunately shadows exist where good light exists also and the
300D will excel here revealing very clean pixels with great dynamic
range.... the F828 with its teenie sensor will....well..... we'll
see :-)
Frank,

Haven't you read how Sony has designed the CCD to mimic the human eye's own response to photons thus producing a linear correlation between shadow noise and our perception of shadows. Large CMOS sensors can't even come close to matching this aspect of visualization.
But it's when you get into poor lighting that things start to get
dicey.
yep it's that 'better' pixels .vs. 'more' pixels thingy again.
Let's just say 6M better pixels are more than 8M pixels...
hehe
--

Ulysses
--
TurboTed

(It's easier just being insane than acting insane)
 
...at one to one on the screen you might see it, but when properly
reduced to a normal viewing size, say 500 or 600 pixels on a
side...you just can't tell the darn things apart very easily.
500 to 600 pixels is normal for you??? No way, man. Not for me. :-)

When I refer to onscreen viewing, I usually mean viewing at 100%, which is where you might see the differences.
And thats comparing the 10D to the 717....Canon didn't improve
anything, but its possible the Sony is much improved.
It's very possible. I'm expecting V1-like performance in this aspect.

--

Ulysses
 
I'm open to the possiblity and even hopeful that the F828 will perform beter than the V1 where noise is concerned.

And color may be the area where the F828 may indeed make a claim to fame for itself if the tech works, and IF Sony doesn't Disnify their colors again (maybe this is the difference between Standard and Real in the color menu).

Everyone is waiting to see.
Haven't you read how Sony has designed the CCD to mimic the human
eye's own response to photons thus producing a linear correlation
between shadow noise and our perception of shadows. Large CMOS
sensors can't even come close to matching this aspect of visualization.
--

Ulysses
 
Are we having fun yet? People all around justifying their purchases, planting their feet solidly into the hole they've dug, ever searching for the satisifaction of knowing THEIR camera will be the best.

(end rant)

---

(not meaning disrespect to the original poster)

Honestly, we see threads like this every day. I think we've gotten to the point where many people are drawing lines and then trying to persuade others that they have done the right thing. It's amazing how independant people like to be, but yet need others to affirm the choices they make!

Then again, as they always say: if you can't beat'em, join'em:

At this point, I'm pretty sure I'll be getting the 300d but I could change my mind. Just like with so many products that have come and gone, I'd like to have one with ALL of the features/qualities of both of these cameras! Wouldn't it have been nice to see a camera with the 828's lens and feature set but using a CMOS sensor with images that match the other DSLR's? Well even that wouldn't settle the debate, I'm sure...

SONY 828: I'd like to have the 828 for times when I wouldn't want to carry lenses, when I might want to shoot movies, and perhaps in the dark of the night! :-) SUMMARY: The 828 has a high quality, long, bright lens that would suit most photo ops with the convenience of not switching lenses. It has a great movie mode, focuses in the dark, has a versatile swivel LCD with live histogram, and improves upon the 717 in a plethora of ways! Obviously, the unknowns are mainly in image quality - how will the noise be and how good is the new color filter? DISCLAIMER: No, we don't know everything yet, including image quality so we just have to make educated guesses on some things for now.

CANON DIGITAL REBEL: I'd like to have the 300d for doing my photo shoots with clients, when going out on the town shooting photos, when going to events and places. SUMMARY: The 300d will offer superb image quality with low noise and usable high ISO. The interchangable lens system is a benefit to many as it adds a level of flexibility and quality not available on the 828 (with a cost, of course). It will have very fast Autofocus with the added ability to track subjects (yes, after the slight delay to switch to that mode). And although it lacks a Live histogram (duh) and a swivel LCD, a TTL optical viewfinder is actually preferred to many. DISCLAIMER: No, we don't know everything yet, including image quality so we just have to make educated guesses on some things for now.

WHAT IS THE FINAL ANSWER:

Ding, ding, there can be NO winner in this match!!! Just the style of camera alone will divide the group, not based on an objective quality that makes one better than the other, but on a subjective preference. And many of the other things I mentioned will divide the group further. It always comes down to which camera is better for YOU. It may be helpful for us to compare and contrast, to point things out, and to help others make their decision as well, but not when it means we get defensive about our own decision.

It is in our nature to persuade others to be just like ourselves. If I decide to buy the 300d, it will be in my nature to want everyone else to have one to and to share in the excitement that I'll certainly have. The same is true for someone who buys the 828 or any other camera that they are proud to own.

Travis
 
I see that most of your posts are on Canon forums but you've posted here to say negative things about a camera you've never even seen, held, or used.

Of course, that is your right and you are entitled to your option.

Besides, unless you have gotten a Production F828 in your hands and tested it I chose not to believe any of the things you are guessing or commenting on.

Just my not so humble option.

--
Canon T70, AE1, Rebel2000 G1, G2, G5
 
...I was trying to make. Whats really the value in one to one viewing? I do it all the time to evaluate the image quality, but its not an application of the image.

In prints up 16x20 and uses on the web, you are gonna be hard pressed to tell the difference between the 300 and the shots I take with the 828....and I'm not going to be shocked when the 828 are better some of the time.

dave
...at one to one on the screen you might see it, but when properly
reduced to a normal viewing size, say 500 or 600 pixels on a
side...you just can't tell the darn things apart very easily.
500 to 600 pixels is normal for you??? No way, man. Not for me. :-)

When I refer to onscreen viewing, I usually mean viewing at 100%,
which is where you might see the differences.
And thats comparing the 10D to the 717....Canon didn't improve
anything, but its possible the Sony is much improved.
It's very possible. I'm expecting V1-like performance in this aspect.

--

Ulysses
--
Amazing what we can do with just three crayons, red green and blue!
http://yourbattlecreek.com/dave/
 

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