5DS: is every Canon's recommended lens good enough?

Good enough for what?

In fact, just about every Canon lens will perform better on a 5DS/DSr than on any previous Canon body. If a 70-200/4L IS is the best choice for your needs because of weight, then it will only be exceeded by the latest 70-200/2.8L IS II, which is much heavier.

It makes no sense to set performance standards for one lens according to the capabilities of an entirely different lens. Every lens represents some compromises on the part of both the lens designer and the photographer who chooses it.

my question seemed very clear to me, but maybe I need to express it in a better/clearer way.

Good enough in terms of resolving power when you put it in front of a 50mpx sensor.

It is not me but Canon itself who has produced - never happened before as far as I know - a list of recommended lenses to use with these cameras. So when you write ''In fact, just about every Canon lens will perform better on a 5DS/DSr than on any previous Canon body'' I doubt it, since a 50mpx sensor will expose the limits/drawbacks of a lens which could stay hidden in front of a 20mpx sensor.

I am not talking about "performance standards" between different lenses, I am talking about lens/sensor adequateness.

The question is almost meaningless, as is Canon's lens recommendation which should be considered markeing hype. If you want the best from your 50MP sensor then you should only consider 35L II and 300 f2.3 IS II. Corners of zooms wide open will never be as good as the best primes and 50MP will show up flaws in the 24-70II, 70-200II, 16-35III and 11-24 (despite their being probably the best collection of pro zooms on the market). Same goes for most older primes, don't even think of using them wide open!

Of course for any given print size the 50MP sensor will record more detail than a 20 or 30MP sensor, even when used with relatively poor lenses and for most this will be the more important point. Printed at the same size you lose nothing and for the vast majority of lenses you'll be able to print larger with extra detail but in some cases exposing some weakness in corner/edge performance when you print/post large enough to demonstrate the improved centre/mid field resolution.

To get the most out of the extra resolution be ready to use the best quality lenses which cover the FL you need, optimal apertures, a steady tripod and PP a bit more to remove edge/corner CA which is not noticeable at 20MP.

gariktal said:

Hello,

in a few days I will finally own a Canon 5DS and I would like to hear from 5DS and 5DS R owners which lenses - according to their experience - do they indeed recommend.

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I recommend getting the lens(es) which most suit your budget and shooting style. That statement seems as though I'm ignoring the point of your post (the list of lenses Canon recommends), but in actuality, I'm addressing it directly.

gariktal said:

More precisely: I guess everybody knows the list of Canon lenses that Canon recommends for this camera and I am even happy to already own a couple of them - 50mm f2.5 macro and 24mm f2.8 IS - but I wonder, but : is it real that an old lens like the 50mm f2.5 is good enough for a 50mpx sensor?

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Every lens ever created is good enough for a 50mp sensor.

gariktal said:

The first lens I will buy is a 70-200, for weight reasons I am inclined towards the 70-200 f4 L IS and again I wonder: is it good enough for the 50mpx sensor? In the past I have owned the non IS version and it was wonderful, so I am not discussing the overall quality of the lens, I want only the advice of people who have used/tested this lens on their 5DS.

Thank you!

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Here's the deal... Every lens ever created will resolve more detail on a 50mp sensor than it would, for instance, on a 20mp sensor. That's just how lenses and pixel-dense sensors work. Will it be noticeable? Usually, yes, depending on your output. Here's a "for instance"...

One of Canon's worst currently available prime lenses is the 50mm f/1.4. Here's DxO's take on how it resolves on a 6D vs a 5Dsr...



Notice that the sharpness improves from 15 P-Mpix to 22 P-Mpix? Ignoring all of the controversy around DxO for a second, let's dive in just a tad to their data. First, a statement copied directly from their website:

gariktal said:

Sharpness is expressed in PMpix and is typically between 50% and 100% of the sensor pixel count, Differences below 1 P-MPix are usually not noticeable.

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So, on a 20mp sensor, the 50/1.4 is capable of resolving around 75% of the sensor. On the 5Dsr, it's capable of resolving around 44% of the sensor. So, clearly there's a decline in the results and it's pretty drastic in this case. HOWEVER, notice the last part of that quote - "differences below 1 P- are usually not noticeable". A difference of 7 P-MPix in these two sensor + lens combinations where a difference of more than 1 is probably noticeable. Another way to look at it is that the 5Dsr resolves almost 50% more detail. Let's all agree that 50% more detail is noticeable, shall we?

But here's another look which is more illuminating, IMO.



This is the "field map" for sharpness and is what I typically look at on DxO when comparing lenses. You'll notice that there is more area of green on the 5Dsr than the 6D and less area of dark orange/red. You'll also notice that the more solid yellow area is further from the center of the frame.

So yeah, better sharpness performance on the 5Dsr.

But you may say "that's a lens that Canon recommends for the 5Ds and 5Dsr". Fair enough... Here's the 35mm f/2 (not the recommended IS version)...



Same exact story here. P-MPix from 16 on the 6D to 23 on the 5Dsr. And the sharpness field map...



It's a similar story. More area of green, more intense green, yellow is closer to the periphery of the frame, and there's less orange/red.

You'll see this for literally every lens out there. The greater the pixel density, the more it will resolve, even with less impressive lenses. I've seen and used the line "all of your lenses will get an upgrade" with the 5Ds and 5Dsr.

Let's look at one more situation. Let's look at a GREAT lens. Here's the EF 35mm f/1.4L II - a lens I'd never thought I'd use much (I typically shoot between 50-135mm) but have ABSOLUTELY fallen in love with, especially on the 5Ds.



You'll notice a 20 P-MPix jump from the 6D to the 5Dsr.

Here's the field map...



Same story as before. More green, and more intense green.

Going back to DxO's on ...

gariktal said:

Sharpness is expressed in PMpix and is typically between 50% and 100% of the sensor pixel count

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So there's a difference of 30mp in the sensor pixel count and if this were a perfect lens, we'd expect 30 P-MPix more in the "sharpness score". But there's "only" a difference of 20 P-MPix - because it's NOT a perfect lens. Another way to see it is that the lens resolves at 85% of the sensor resolution on the 6D and 74% of the sensor resolution on the 5Dsr.

I'd like to come full circle to my initial statement in this reply...

"I recommend getting the lens(es) which most suit your budget and shooting style."

Hopefully that recommendation makes more sense now as I've (hopefully) illustrated that ALL lenses will get an upgrade due to the extra resolution of the 5Ds and 5Dsr - AND that the upgrade should be noticeable to a degree, even with less impressive lenses (sharper in the center and the area of less sharpness is moved further towards the periphery of the frame).

Thanks for that, Jonathan. It's one of the best arguments and explanations for the notion that larger sensor size increases the image quality of any lens.

gariktal said:

my question seemed very clear to me, but maybe I need to express it in a better/clearer way.

Good enough in terms of resolving power when you put it in front of a 50mpx sensor.

It is not me but Canon itself who has produced - never happened before as far as I know - a list of recommended lenses to use with these cameras. So when you write ''In fact, just about every Canon lens will perform better on a 5DS/DSr than on any previous Canon body'' I doubt it, since a 50mpx sensor will expose the limits/drawbacks of a lens which could stay hidden in front of a 20mpx sensor.

I am not talking about "performance standards" between different lenses, I am talking about lens/sensor adequateness.

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Given what you are saying I would consider L glass first since they are of better specifications. In other words don't shoot yourself in the foot buying a 5DS for the resolution and then not go L in order to save money or weight.

Also look here,

https://www.dxomark.com/best-lenses-under-13000-dollars

gariktal said:

my question seemed very clear to me, but maybe I need to express it in a better/clearer way.

Good enough in terms of resolving power when you put it in front of a 50mpx sensor.

It is not me but Canon itself who has produced - never happened before as far as I know - a list of recommended lenses to use with these cameras. So when you write ''In fact, just about every Canon lens will perform better on a 5DS/DSr than on any previous Canon body'' I doubt it, since a 50mpx sensor will expose the limits/drawbacks of a lens which could stay hidden in front of a 20mpx sensor.

I am not talking about "performance standards" between different lenses, I am talking about lens/sensor adequateness.

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Your question seemed perfectly clear to me too.

Seems to me that one could reasonably interpret the fact that Canon has a list of lenses they recommend for this camera, implies that for lenses not on the list, the 50mpx sensor will, as you put it, "expose limits/drawbacks of a lens which could stay hidden in front of a 20mpx sensor". So, you'd like to hear from owners of this camera which lenses they would recommend according to their experience. I don't know how you could be more clear!

Canon developed that list of recommended lenses for some reason. Marketing hype? Who knows...maybe! Does every lens "actually" perform better on a 50mpx sensor as other responders claim? Hard to say....maybe! I would bet there are some lenses that just are not up to the task though (ie can't fully resolve at 50mpx, etc...). Are these the lenses that didn't make the list? Hard to say...maybe!

Outstanding, Jonathan. Thank you.

jeff hladun said:

Thanks for that, Jonathan. It's one of the best arguments and explanations for the notion that larger sensor size increases the image quality of any lens.

--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/12191517@N05/

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You're welcome, Jeff. I'm glad you found it useful. Just to be clear though, this was an explanation for pixel density, not sensor size. I'm guessing you knew and understood that, but probably just used incorrect terminology. The sensors are the same size, it's just that the pixels on the 5Ds/r sensor are smaller, and therefore more numerous. It's kind of like asking how many anchovies can fit in a can. If they're big, it's only a few. If they're small, then many more. The can size itself, never changes.

Discussing differences from sensor size is much more difficult, in my opinion, because then you have to start making assumptions and/or including variables.

gmcooper said:

Outstanding, Jonathan. Thank you.

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You're very welcome!

For high-pixel cameras, primes are much sharper than zoom. Besides those primes mentioned by others, you could consider Sigma Art prime lenses. They are very sharp and relative affordable. EF 70-200L/4.0 IS is relative light and small but somewhat outdated, 3-stop 'IS' that also generates some noises. CR said Canon will update this 70-200L/4.0 IS before its bigger brother 70-200L/2.8 IS II. Canon relative new WA and UWA zoom are very sharp such as 24-70L/2.8 II, 16-35L/2.8 III (16-35L/4.0 IS is also very good) and 11-24L/4.0.

Jonathan Brady said:

Doug_PS said:

Canon developed that list of recommended lenses for some reason. Marketing hype?

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That would be my very best guess. I'll guess that it's 99% marketing and 1% altruism. Canon is in the business of selling stuff. A list like this helps. Some small part of them probably wants people to know, altruistically, what it takes to extract the most from the 5Ds/r to maximize that happiness with their choice.

Jonathan Brady said:

Who knows...maybe! Does every lens "actually" perform better on a 50mpx sensor as other responders claim? Hard to say....maybe! I would bet there are some lenses that just are not up to the task though (ie can't fully resolve at 50mpx, etc...).

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"Can't fully resolve at 50mpx, etc..." Statements like that demonstrate either an incorrect usage of language within our community (I've read statements like that numerous times) or a misunderstanding of the issue at large.

There aren't ANY Lenses which resolve at 50mp. Literally none. If you look at DxO's article then you'll see that the very best lens they tested for their article about the best lenses in terms of sharpness was the Carl Zeiss Apo Planar T* Otus 85mm f/1.4 ZE which has a sharpness score of 41. If you go through all of the lenses they've tested, the BEST score was the EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II which received a sharpness score of 45.* Even the new Sigma 85mm Art lens "only" has a sharpness score of 40.

*going from memory, I didn't look at every single lens they've tested

So, there aren't ANY lenses which "fully resolve" the 50mp sensors from Canon.

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Good point you make with respect to the my statement (ie "Can't fully resolve at 50mpx, etc..). Here is an article from Roger Cicala that supports your point.

I thought I would share a little more info since a handful of people seemed to find my last post helpful.

If you are looking for the maximum impact on your images from gear, I find it helpful to compare:

• camera 1 + lens 1
• camera 2 + lens 2

Such a comparison can really illustrate the value of upgrading both components of a system. Be careful though, doing so can get REALLY expensive! And to save someone (or many someones) the time, I'll go ahead and say it (read this in a pedantic voice, please) "it's not the gear, it's the photographer". Now that this incredibly annoying, obvious, and useless observation has been acknowledged (we're looking at options for one photographer, NOT comparing photographers), let's get geeky

Let's say that a person is currently shooting with a Canon APSC camera and a kit lens. They find that most often, they're shooting at about 22mm on the kit lens, but they want better IQ. So, they seek out a comparison between

1. their current camera plus a 24mm prime lens
2. a 6D plus a 35mm budget prime lens (to get roughly the same angle of view)
3. a 5Dsr plus the very best 35mm prime lens.

The current setup is a 70D (20mp sensor - which is roughly the same number of pixels as the 6D, conveniently) plus the 18-55 IS STM kit lens. The options are to get the 24mm EF-S pancake lens or the 24mm f/2.8 IS lens. The overview comparison looks like this...

• 70D + 18-55 kit lens gets a sharpness score of 9 (but keep in mind that's an amalgamation of various focal lengths and apertures with a prime lens, it's only one focal length).
• 70D + 24mm f/2.8 STM pancake lens gets a sharpness score of 12
• 70D + 24mm f/2.8 IS USM lens gets a sharpness score of 13

But what about the field map? There are two scenarios to present.

open performance of each lens at 24mm...



Notice that wide open on the kit lens means an aperture of f/4 whereas wide open on the primes is an aperture of f/2.8. Even though the primes are a stop faster at 24mm, those lenses are still sharper than the kit lens at f/4.

The next scenario is all lenses at the same aperture. The lowest common denominator is f/4 as the kit lens doesn't open up wider than that. So here they all are at f/4...



Clearly, both primes are outperforming the kit lens. The best performance is from the 70D + 24mm f/2.8 IS USM lens so we'll use that as the comparator against the 2 full frame possibilities. I'm going to compare:

1. 70D + 24mm f/2.8 IS USM
2. 6D + 35mm f/2
3. 5Dsr + 35mm f/1.4L II

we'll check the overview...



We see sharpness scores of 13, 16, and 37 respectively. Note there are differences in other parameters as well but for the sake of brevity, I'll ignore those. Also keep in mind that the first 2 comparisons have the same (rough) number of megapixels (20), so there's no advantage of pixels there, that only comes in with the last comparison with the 5Dsr.

Let's check out the field maps... We're going to look at two field maps. The first will be performance wide open.



Check THAT out! The 70D + 24mm f/2.8 IS lens is outperforming the 6D + 35mm f/2 (which is an OLD lens, btw - this is NOT the modern "IS" version of the lens) when looking at sharpness across the frame. HOWEVER, this is NOT an apples-to-apples comparison of sharpness. Why? Because the images produced will NOT be equal. There will be less DOF in the 6D image (and the 5Dsr image). We have to account for what the crop factor does to DOF. So if we want to compare (as best as possible) equal images, we need to look at what the 6D + 35mm f/2 and the 5Dsr + 35mm f/1.4L II look like when stopped down to an aperture which will give (approximately) the same DOF as the 70D + 24mm f/2.8 IS when shot at f/2.8.

The Canon crop factor is 1.6x and the wide open aperture of the lens is f/2.8. So, 2.8 x 1.6 is 4.5 (4.48 actually but 4.5 is the closest aperture). Unfortunately, DxO did not test the 35mm lenses at f/4.5 but they did at f/4 and f/5.6. I'll handicap the 35mm lenses and share the results at f/4 (because lenses get sharper as you stop them down [for a while, anyway] so f/5.6 shows better sharpness than f/4).

Here are the results of the 70D + 24mm f/2.8 IS at f/2.8 (equivalent DOF as FF + f/4.5 at roughly 35mm) and the two FF comparators at f/4.



NOW we see that the 6D and 70D are more similar in performance but that the 6D + 35mm f/2 actually pulls ahead in sharpness. The 5Dsr + 35mm f/1.4L II are even FURTHER ahead.

And here's the last comparison I'll share.



What you're looking at here is the same comparison as above EXCEPT that I reverted the 5Dsr back to f/1.4. Notice that the sharpness performance from the 5Dsr + 35mm f/1.4L II is SUPERIOR to the 70D + 24mm f/2.8 IS wide open AND to the 6D + 35mm f/2 STOPPED DOWN to f/4!!!! In fact, there is NO tested aperture on the 35mm f/2 when mounted on the 6D which has better sharpness than the 5Dsr + 35mm f/1.4L II when shot wide open.

To say it more plainly, the 5Dsr + 35mm f/1.4L II is sharper at f/1.4 than the 6D + 35mm f/2 at f/2, f/2.8, f/4, f/5.6, f/8, f/11, or f/22. That's just NUTS!

One can sit on DxO all day long making comparisons like this, adjusting for sensor size and the effect on aperture, etc. But the resounding message at the end of the day is that IN GENERAL (especially with modern lenses from the last 4-5 years), the best results in terms of image quality will come from the very best L glass and the highest pixel density FF sensors you can afford.

ok... my curiosity got the best of me and I also made this comparison...

1. 6D + 35mm f/2
2. 5D Mark IV + 35mm f/2 IS (note that this is the "IS" version)
3. 5Dsr + 35mm f/1.4L II

This works out probably like you expect. The more you spend, the better the results.

Here's the field map. Keep in mind that the first two are at f/2 and the last is at f/1.4...



You could also look at any of these 3 cameras with all 3 lenses (ie, 6D + 35 f/2, 6D + 35 f/2 IS, 6D + 35 f/1.4L II) or any of the 3 lenses with all 3 bodies (ie, the 35mm f/1.4L II on the 6D, 5D Mark IV and 5Dsr).

I hope that this, too, was helpful.

Doug_PS said:

Good point you make with respect to the my statement (ie "Can't fully resolve at 50mpx, etc..). Here is an article from Roger Cicala that supports your point.

https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2015/06/canon-5ds-and-5ds-r-initial-resolution-tests/

Click to expand...

if there were a gear-geek hall of fame, I believe Roger would be in the first class of inductees. And I say that with ALL THE RESPECT IN THE WORLD, and plenty of admiration as well

gariktal said:

Hello,

in a few days I will finally own a Canon 5DS and I would like to hear from 5DS and 5DS R owners which lenses - according to their experience - do they indeed recommend.

More precisely: I guess everybody knows the list of Canon lenses that Canon recommends for this camera and I am even happy to already own a couple of them - 50mm f2.5 macro and 24mm f2.8 IS - but I wonder, but : is it real that an old lens like the 50mm f2.5 is good enough for a 50mpx sensor?

The first lens I will buy is a 70-200, for weight reasons I am inclined towards the 70-200 f4 L IS and again I wonder: is it good enough for the 50mpx sensor? In the past I have owned the non IS version and it was wonderful, so I am not discussing the overall quality of the lens, I want only the advice of people who have used/tested this lens on their 5DS.

Thank you!

Click to expand...

Gariktal.

I used my 70-200 f/4 L IS on a friends 5DsR body. I also use that lens on my 5D Mark III's. Either body, this lens is agre at choice. As I have the 70-200 f/2.8 L IS Mark II as well, the older I get the more I lean on the smaller, lighter f/4 L IS. Great for strolling around town and for traveling to Europe for example where f/2.8 is not critical. For paid work I still have my f/4 L IS in the bag as another option or back up just in case. One of Canon's best lenses. They really nailed it with that lens. So much so that the f/2.8 L IS really had to hit it out of the park....and they did.

I whole heartedly recommend the smaller, lighter f/4 L IS.

I recommend:

1.) 11-24L

2.) 24-70 II

3.) 100-400L II (b/c 200mm isn't enough for all-purpose)

4.) 100L macro

gariktal said:

Hello,

in a few days I will finally own a Canon 5DS and I would like to hear from 5DS and 5DS R owners which lenses - according to their experience - do they indeed recommend.

More precisely: I guess everybody knows the list of Canon lenses that Canon recommends for this camera and I am even happy to already own a couple of them - 50mm f2.5 macro and 24mm f2.8 IS - but I wonder, but : is it real that an old lens like the 50mm f2.5 is good enough for a 50mpx sensor?

The first lens I will buy is a 70-200, for weight reasons I am inclined towards the 70-200 f4 L IS and again I wonder: is it good enough for the 50mpx sensor? In the past I have owned the non IS version and it was wonderful, so I am not discussing the overall quality of the lens, I want only the advice of people who have used/tested this lens on their 5DS.

Thank you!

Click to expand...

Jonathan Brady said:

You're welcome, Jeff. I'm glad you found it useful. Just to be clear though, this was an explanation for pixel density, not sensor size. I'm guessing you knew and understood that, but probably just used incorrect terminology. The sensors are the same size, it's just that the pixels on the 5Ds/r sensor are smaller, and therefore more numerous. It's kind of like asking how many anchovies can fit in a can. If they're big, it's only a few. If they're small, then many more. The can size itself, never changes.

Discussing differences from sensor size is much more difficult, in my opinion, because then you have to start making assumptions and/or including variables.

Click to expand...

I stand corrected!

Cheers,

(Where's that red-faced emoji?)

I am using the following lenses and have no complaints on my Canon 5DS:

Canon 24-105 F/4L IS USM

Canon 17-40mm F/4L USM

I haven't noticed any major issues in my photos. I have tried some non L lenses and the quality is less for sure. If you have that nice of a camera it would make sense to make sure and grab an L lens or equivalent.