Where does the difference start to show?

What you say is completely true and the point it matters depends on a couple things. First and foremost, your standards. It really depends on your standards of IQ, how much noise you can be happy with, DR, ect. Or, how sharp do you want your photos to be. If you use heavy NR, you can fix noise issues at the cost of detail.

The other major factor is what glass you will buy. For example, at one point i was comparing MFT with Pentax apsc. So i looked at the glass i was willing to buy for each, within my budget. One comparison was the walk around lens, for Pentax it was the 35mm f2.4DA, for MFT it was the Panasonic 25mm f1.7.

So the funny thing was, even though the Pentax would have a larger sensor, the Panasonic lens was a full stop faster, which would negate most sensor IQ differences, as well as DOF differences. I would start with the glass, do mock buying sprees and look at what you would buy for each format.

Once you normalize based on equivalence, you can better judge if there even will be a difference. I found that for my budget, going larger didn't really offer much more IQ but i would lose certain features that MFT would otherwise offer (IBIS, ect).
The equivalence is valid for evaluating noise levels or dof. It isn't to predict the perceived quality of a picture or if it is pleasing to the eyes or not.

Most MF lenses are f/2.8, f/4 or slower. Still people prefer the MF rendering to FF or APSC rendering even counting that thanks to f/1.4 an APSC body does as much shallow dof and low light gathering as an MF system.

Another example if that people will not always shot wide open with their f/1.7 or f/2.4 lens. They shot at f/8, even for portraiture where the standard is not candid but more studio shots where f/8 is much more likely to be used than f/1.4.

Shallow dof is only usefull when you can't manage to get together an interresting foreground and background. Even if that mean that background is an uniform color;

If shallow dof was all, people should just all buy used 5D + f/1.2 or f/0.95 lenses. But this is just a very specialized, one trick pony thing.

Some poster here compare various camera and ask you to look at 100% crop. But that another completely irrelevant comparison in most cases. If you do not do a wall sized print of the image and go to stare at it from near distance you'll not see the added sharpness of MF.

But you can see a the difference in overall image rendering looking at it in full HD (2MP!) or less. To me this is more how optics render and how fine tonal graduations are reproduced in a pleasing way than any dof or sharpness measure.
 
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Hi Grumpy,

thanks for the help.

BTW the hippo is 2.2 MB

Someone one told me that I would need at least a MB for 8x10 so I usually save files at that size, so that if I needed to print in the future I would have enough to work with. Should I really be working at 2MB to be safe? Remember I seldom print, and never above 8x10.

So If I am reading this correctly I can get a really good 8x10 with this 2.2 MB file, and an OK 10x12?

And when shooting with my old cameras, I should think ahead if I think there is a chance I will heavily crop or blow up a print, and move up to high quality from medium quality, which I use mostly so I can deal with smaller file sizes? Sin though it be, I never shoot in RAW.

My 30D is 8MP, 5D 12MP, and 50D 15MP.

Thanks for the help

whvick
The 300ppi is a standard for Fine Art Printing of digital images in a museum/gallery setting - so viewed from a couple of feet or so. With "only" 2.2 MB it would look fantastic printed at that resolution on a 4x6; but that is tiny.

Nothing should stop you printing this larger -- much larger - ideally the PPI should not be less than 170 PPI - so that would give you 10x8 (more or less) and still a good print from viewing at a couple of feet.

You can of course print this image as large as you want - but in doing it would best be viewed further and further away with each larger size.

So - if your son wants a large poster - say A1 (thats 31.1" x 23.4") sized printed on fujiflex or similar high glossy and vibrant paper - then you would ideally enlarge the image to 9330 x 7020 and then sharpen the image before saving.

Printing onto Canvas, rather than paper, hides the use of lower than ideal resolutions and can be a nice present.

Hope that helps ---

BTW its a nice shot (better than my first attempts with much more expensive gear). If I may suggest you discuss how big your son wants it printed and pick a medium that would display it best at that size.

And of course take larger and larger lenses and high spec cameras the next time you go on safari. ;=}}
 
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My lesson is simple -- if your images are going to be used at 2-3 feet print no larger than the native size of your unenlarged image should give at say 200 ppi - most people sit within 2-3 feet of their monitors and are closer to their devices - a 10 x 8 sized (6.4mp) image at 200 dpi is considered large enough for most fine art shown on the internet.

Otherwise, yes enlarge and print larger and stand much further away.

Courtesy of The PrintSpace.co.uk

472a141a647146dda0d6f954d501358f.jpg.png

Quality by image size:

61a8ac8c010a4726bc2d38348b613cee.jpg.png

9457aac483de4826ab63f51b06ada5c6.jpg.png

12f4068778ac441bbcf936baff6a459e.jpg.png

b60399f85e01440382c7bf6f40ab49b6.jpg.png
Helpful.

so would this hippo from my son's mission trip to Africa blow up good? taken with old 40D and EF 70-210.

e69c599fbc2347a99e127e9174a85de1.jpg

thanks

whvick
Hi Grumpy,

thanks for the help.

BTW the hippo is 2.2 MB

Someone one told me that I would need at least a MB for 8x10 so I usually save files at that size, so that if I needed to print in the future I would have enough to work with. Should I really be working at 2MB to be safe? Remember I seldom print, and never above 8x10.

So If I am reading this correctly I can get a really good 8x10 with this 2.2 MB file, and an OK 10x12?

And when shooting with my old cameras, I should think ahead if I think there is a chance I will heavily crop or blow up a print, and move up to high quality from medium quality, which I use mostly so I can deal with smaller file sizes? Sin though it be, I never shoot in RAW.

My 30D is 8MP, 5D 12MP, and 50D 15MP.

Thanks for the help

whvick
What these ideal print size thing miss is that they think that people will always stare at the thing from near distance regardless. The problem of the hyppo is that it isn't that detailed be it for a 8x10" print or a 30x40" print as anyway you'll not look at it from the same distance.

To get the most out of it, I'll ask a professionnal photo studio to print it for you. They know their job and they know how to make high quality print even from quite small photos.

But the most importants aspect of the photo you want to print are not its resolution or even its perfection. Otherwise you'd buy a perfect hypo photo from stock photography database in full rez. The resolution of the photo is a secondary aspect here.

Still even if the photo is 2.2MB, it is not sharp by any means at 100%. Maybe there 0.5MP worth of details in it, not much more. This is too small for high quality even at 8x10"
 
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BTW its a nice shot (better than my first attempts with much more expensive gear). If I may suggest you discuss how big your son wants it printed and pick a medium that would display it best at that size.

And of course take larger and larger lenses and high spec cameras the next time you go on safari. ;=}}
As it was a mission trip, I expected him to use the camera for basic photography of his work with the people. Instead he was too busy working each day to take many photos. However, they did have an afternoon free and took this river safari . Apparently the river was just small enough for him to get close enough at 210mm to bring back pictures of all sorts of wildlife. He has 100 keepers that most of us would be proud of. I am glad the old camera and lens did a good job on his once in a lifetime trip. The lens was an old EF 70-210 constant f4 push-pull....not a bad lens in its day.

thanks

whvick
 
What these ideal print size thing miss is that they think that people will always stare at the thing from near distance regardless. The problem of the hyppo is that it isn't that detailed be it for a 8x10" print or a 30x40" print as anyway you'll not look at it from the same distance.

To get the most out of it, I'll ask a professionnal photo studio to print it for you. They know their job and they know how to make high quality print even from quite small photos.

But the most importants aspect of the photo you want to print are not its resolution or even its perfection. Otherwise you'd buy a perfect hypo photo from stock photography database in full rez. The resolution of the photo is a secondary aspect here.

Still even if the photo is 2.2MB, it is not sharp by any means at 100%. Maybe there 0.5MP worth of details in it, not much more. This is too small for high quality even at 8x10"
Thanks for the info.

He will probably never print it, nor the other 99 keepers he got from that afternoon river safari. Probably will just look at them on his laptop from time to time. He may project them at times for sermons or talks on missions, but again the quality will not be as important as the subject.

thanks

whvick
 
It's correct that what would be considered excellent quality is opinion. Maybe if you had a panel of 20 "experts" you could get some kind of consensus. I would like to add that the lens can be a limiting factor. The best print quality is determined by using the best lens available and the lowest ISO.

--
Tom
Look at the picture, not the pixels
------------
Misuse of the ability to do 100% pixel peeping is the bane of digital photography.
Absolutely! Lens quality, low ISO, and the camera's sensor tech, or type of film, etc., all affect the end result.

--
Teila K. Day
http://teiladay.com
And for old guys like me tripods or IS come in handy!
 
I was just looking at sample galleries. I looked at some beautiful pictures from the Hasselblad x1D which I assume is MF. They were very nice. Then I looked at some FF...very nice again....then I looked at APSC...also very nice.

Bottom line was that on my dinky 19" screen, I could not tell the difference.

Since I will also assume that most of us look at pictures on phones, tablets and laptops, we are not getting the real picture of the quality from the larger formats.

The place that my 5D outshines my 30D is portraits, where it is easier to get shallow DOF. That is the one place that I can see the advantage of FF in my old cameras.

So my question is where does the difference really start to show? Is it a 30" screen with high resolution? And how much computer does it take to handle a 50MP picture?

Is it an 8x10 or 11x16 or poster size print? I won second place in the county fair with an 8x10 from an iPhone, and it really looked good!

Put this in practical terms for me.

30 years ago I was tempted to get into MF, but never did. I must admit that when I see these new MF cameras, I do pipe-dream about them, even though they are thousands of dollars above my budget and skill level.

Thanks for your answers. Please, remember to keep it simple.

thanks

whvick
Thanks for all the input. I was vague on purpose...maybe too much so.

My take away is that the difference in equipment starts to show when we need to crop or really blow things up big. And that may not be important if the viewing distance is considered.

So for me I cannot justify a good MF regardless of the GAS, however many pros can justify it and may need it. Moving to FF really helped my portraits, but again I think that has more to do with DOF than image quality for my purposes.

And for you guys who cannot really justify it, but do have GAS and MONEY...go for it. It is all good fun.

thanks

whvick
 
Ain't this a can of worms?

... Arguably, the D810 at ISO64 will equal or beat the Hasselblad x1D for light gathered and image quality.
Let's cut to the bottom line. The D810 ins't going to "beat" the Hasselblad, Fuji GFX or Pentax 645Z in any practical image quality test generally speaking. It just isn't going to happen, irrespective of selected iso. I think most would be hard pressed when it comes to image quality, to opt to shoot a client with a D810 or 5Dsr over a camera with Sony's current (and aging) 33x44 MF sensor.

enlarge to see detail. D810 (a great camera of course) isn't in the same league, even using 64 iso.
enlarge to see detail. D810 (a great camera of course) isn't in the same league, even using 64 iso.

enlarge to see detail. D810 (a great camera of course) isn't in the same league at 6400 iso.
enlarge to see detail. D810 (a great camera of course) isn't in the same league at 6400 iso.

enlarge to see detail. D810 (a great camera of course) does not share the same detail even at its 64 iso. This is not to disparage the awesome Nikon D800 series. The camera is wonderfully competent at virtually every turn. But trying to compare it in real practice to a MF sensor, especially at the higher isos, it just can't match the larger sensors. :)
enlarge to see detail. D810 (a great camera of course) does not share the same detail even at its 64 iso. This is not to disparage the awesome Nikon D800 series. The camera is wonderfully competent at virtually every turn. But trying to compare it in real practice to a MF sensor, especially at the higher isos, it just can't match the larger sensors. :)
The Canon 5DS with an 85 1.2 lens should also look better than the x1D in the right circumstances.
I wish people would stop referring to the faster lenses when making a real-world and practical comparison to medium format. The bottom line is that I'm not going to shoot my 85 f/1.2 wide open when I need a certain amount of quality. It just isn't going to happen.

I'll stop down to f/2 or so which puts me right back into MF territory, albeit with less resolution.

There are times when I'd rather shoot a 200 f2, 85 f1.2, or 100 f2 on a Canon as opposed to using MF, but not typically so.

I agree with you though when it comes to the various parameters that the OP could be talking about but isn't being specific about... therefore I assume that the OP means "in general".

Best in photography to you and everyone!

--
Teila K. Day
http://teiladay.com
Thanks for the reply. I was vague on purpose as I was looking for simple answers.

Basically I am taking away from the thread answers that for most photography the difference between older camera and newer ones shows mostly if you need to crop a lot or print big or do more low light photography
that would be the wrong takeaway I think.
 
All that, but if I change to what I originally meant to say, "can" beat, I think things change. IE, not a lot of compelling reasons to switch to the mini-MF cameras just yet.
 
All that, but if I change to what I originally meant to say, "can" beat, I think things change. IE, not a lot of compelling reasons to switch to the mini-MF cameras just yet.
Not only that but as sensor size increases the practicality for general photography decreases because of Camera and Lens size limits (can you imagine how huge and heavy long telephoto lenses would be on MF cameras. It's why there are none). It's the reasons why Large Frame film cameras never went beyond specialized uses despite having the best IQ.
 
All that, but if I change to what I originally meant to say, "can" beat, I think things change. IE, not a lot of compelling reasons to switch to the mini-MF cameras just yet.
Not only that but as sensor size increases the practicality for general photography decreases because of Camera and Lens size limits (can you imagine how huge and heavy long telephoto lenses would be on MF cameras. It's why there are none). It's the reasons why Large Frame film cameras never went beyond specialized uses despite having the best IQ.
Yea, that's where we are now. I have high hopes for the Fuji - if/when they increase the sensor resolution to 70Mp or so, then the reasons get more compelling for high end work. But for now, the higher end 135 sensors are really doing the job.
 
All that, but if I change to what I originally meant to say, "can" beat, I think things change. IE, not a lot of compelling reasons to switch to the mini-MF cameras just yet.
For many people shooting to eat, there are certainly compelling reasons to shoot MF. Just the processing time savings alone is worth it in many shops. Think about the entire decision making process from a business perspective. Is saving $50-$75/wk worth of processing time if you're paying 2 people worth shooting with a larger sensor? How much does a bit more cropping room mean to you when you're fitting frames or your own frame/mats? Does excellent quality at 100 iso one moment and great performance at 12,800 iso mean anything to you when you sit down to edit files that are less muddy and more pliable in post? You can't just look at a few sample shots and make a business decision.. you have to think business, costs, ROI, and how much time and b.s. can be saved by using a new tool, etc..

I like to use a high speed scanner example.... is it worth $4,000 more, to buy a scanner with only a 1inch or so larger input tray that holds 500 sheets as opposed to 250, and scans each page 2 seconds quicker? The first time you find yourself trimming a 1,600 page document to fit into the tray, you'll come to a different understanding of ROI from a different angle.

How much money can you save by trimming off 50-60minutes per job on the scanning alone, and 60% or so of that time on the OCR. How much money does that add up to, etc..

Unfortunately, that's not the thought process that most people in a gear forum seem to use.
Not only that but as sensor size increases the practicality for general photography decreases because of Camera and Lens size limits (can you imagine how huge and heavy long telephoto lenses would be on MF cameras.
Hold a 400mm f/5.6 Pentax 645 lens. Then hold a slow 400mm lens from Canon. Notice anything? Weigh about the same? Technically the Canon weighs about 1/100th of a lb less. The weight of a "heavy" medium format Hasselblad 300mm lens weighs less than a Canon 300 f2.8.
It's why there are none). It's the reasons why Large Frame film cameras never went beyond specialized uses despite having the best IQ.
Because they weren't practical (time consuming, large and costly) is the only reason why people didn't and don't typically bother with large format film cameras. A 4x5 digital camera with a 300mp sensor in mirrorless trim for under $30k would be a game changer in many areas of photography.

The weight of most MF lenses (or MF camera/lens combos) aren't worth mentioning.

:)
 
Hold a 400mm f/5.6 Pentax 645 lens. Then hold a slow 400mm lens from Canon. Notice anything? Weigh about the same? Technically the Canon weighs about 1/100th of a lb less. The weight of a "heavy" medium format Hasselblad 300mm lens weighs less than a Canon 300 f2.8.
The thing you are overlooking is the field of view difference between a MF sensor and a FF sensor. Think of APS vs FF. A 400mm lens on a MF camera will not get you as "close" as a 400mm lens on a FF camera so a longer, heavier much more expensive lens will be necessary. Are there any 600mm lenses available for the 645?
 
One poster mentioned the weight and size of a MF camera. There is not that much difference from APSC vs FF, but going MF gets heavy and big.

I love this old picture, and would like to see the prints from this camera!



c32ac6040ef1450fa665faa2127b012d.jpg

But I doubt even Ansel Adams could justify packing it around.

whvick
 
All that, but if I change to what I originally meant to say, "can" beat, I think things change. IE, not a lot of compelling reasons to switch to the mini-MF cameras just yet.
For many people shooting to eat, there are certainly compelling reasons to shoot MF.
I said mini-MF. I'm only commenting on that. You're taking it to mean all MF, I don't mean that. This new stuff - the Fuji and Hasselblad - not as impressive as they need to be just yet.
 
All that, but if I change to what I originally meant to say, "can" beat, I think things change. IE, not a lot of compelling reasons to switch to the mini-MF cameras just yet.
For many people shooting to eat, there are certainly compelling reasons to shoot MF.
I said mini-MF. I'm only commenting on that. You're taking it to mean all MF, I don't mean that. This new stuff - the Fuji and Hasselblad - not as impressive as they need to be just yet.
No, I'm taking it to mean MF period which includes (by definition) a 33x44 sensor. There is no such thing as "mini" MF. I'm not even going to go down that road of silliness. It's not compelling to you because either you don't have a need for MF, or probably haven't used digital MF a lot in your workflow to appreciate the advantages, etc..

--
Teila K. Day
http://teiladay.com
 
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Hold a 400mm f/5.6 Pentax 645 lens. Then hold a slow 400mm lens from Canon. Notice anything? Weigh about the same? Technically the Canon weighs about 1/100th of a lb less. The weight of a "heavy" medium format Hasselblad 300mm lens weighs less than a Canon 300 f2.8.
The thing you are overlooking is the field of view difference between a MF sensor and a FF sensor. Think of APS vs FF. A 400mm lens on a MF camera will not get you as "close" as a 400mm lens on a FF camera so a longer, heavier much more expensive lens will be necessary. Are there any 600mm lenses available for the 645?
No. Not overlooking that at all. I'm just being realistic, and the bottom line is that there isn't a notable demand for manufacturers at this moment to start cranking out longer MF focal lengths, since the longer focal lengths usually don't have anything to do with actual work... and since a substantial percentage of people shooting MF are doing so in the spirit of getting paid, most current MF shooters aren't worried about focal lengths that don't generally do not translate into getting paid or that has nothing to do with their personal work.

As MF becomes more accessible to the masses, that will change, just as using much higher ISO changed when CMOS became the go-to standard over CCD.Again, stop thinking "gear" and think business and what benefits people getting paid or running a shop may gain from current digital MF. What lenses are mostly needed for actual work when a MF kit is being used?

To answer you question...

 (web) The Pentax 645 600mm has been around for a while ;)
(web) The Pentax 645 600mm has been around for a while ;)



--
Teila K. Day
 
All that, but if I change to what I originally meant to say, "can" beat, I think things change. IE, not a lot of compelling reasons to switch to the mini-MF cameras just yet.
For many people shooting to eat, there are certainly compelling reasons to shoot MF.
I said mini-MF. I'm only commenting on that. You're taking it to mean all MF, I don't mean that. This new stuff - the Fuji and Hasselblad - not as impressive as they need to be just yet.
No, I'm taking it to mean MF period which includes (by definition) a 33x44 sensor. There is no such thing as "mini" MF.
The new sensors - that's what I'm calling mini-MF. They're barely larger than 135. As for "no such thing" - we'll see if it catches on. I think it's quite appropriate.
I'm not even going to go down that road of silliness. It's not compelling to you because either you don't have a need for MF, or probably haven't used digital MF a lot in your workflow to appreciate the advantages, etc..
There aren't enough advantages yet - I want the Fuji. But not yet. What advantages do you see right now? (Trick question...I know of some...)
 
Hold a 400mm f/5.6 Pentax 645 lens. Then hold a slow 400mm lens from Canon. Notice anything? Weigh about the same? Technically the Canon weighs about 1/100th of a lb less. The weight of a "heavy" medium format Hasselblad 300mm lens weighs less than a Canon 300 f2.8.
The thing you are overlooking is the field of view difference between a MF sensor and a FF sensor. Think of APS vs FF. A 400mm lens on a MF camera will not get you as "close" as a 400mm lens on a FF camera so a longer, heavier much more expensive lens will be necessary. Are there any 600mm lenses available for the 645?
No. Not overlooking that at all. I'm just being realistic, and the bottom line is that there isn't a notable demand for manufacturers at this moment to start cranking out longer MF focal lengths, since the longer focal lengths usually don't have anything to do with actual work... and since a substantial percentage of people shooting MF are doing so in the spirit of getting paid, most current MF shooters aren't worried about focal lengths that don't generally do not translate into getting paid or that has nothing to do with their personal work.

As MF becomes more accessible to the masses, that will change, just as using much higher ISO changed when CMOS became the go-to standard over CCD.Again, stop thinking "gear" and think business and what benefits people getting paid or running a shop may gain from current digital MF. What lenses are mostly needed for actual work when a MF kit is being used?

To answer you question...

(web) The Pentax 645 600mm has been around for a while ;)
(web) The Pentax 645 600mm has been around for a while ;)

--
Teila K. Day
http://teiladay.com
So you just compared a Canon 400mm to a Pentax - not sure why and they you spring the 600mm on us which is massive. Specifically what are you trying to say? That min-MF is lighter than 135 full frame?
 
Hold a 400mm f/5.6 Pentax 645 lens. Then hold a slow 400mm lens from Canon. Notice anything? Weigh about the same? Technically the Canon weighs about 1/100th of a lb less. The weight of a "heavy" medium format Hasselblad 300mm lens weighs less than a Canon 300 f2.8.
The thing you are overlooking is the field of view difference between a MF sensor and a FF sensor. Think of APS vs FF. A 400mm lens on a MF camera will not get you as "close" as a 400mm lens on a FF camera so a longer, heavier much more expensive lens will be necessary. Are there any 600mm lenses available for the 645?
No. Not overlooking that at all. I'm just being realistic, and the bottom line is that there isn't a notable demand for manufacturers at this moment to start cranking out longer MF focal lengths, since the longer focal lengths usually don't have anything to do with actual work... and since a substantial percentage of people shooting MF are doing so in the spirit of getting paid, most current MF shooters aren't worried about focal lengths that don't generally do not translate into getting paid or that has nothing to do with their personal work.
Agreed
As MF becomes more accessible to the masses, that will change, just as using much higher ISO changed when CMOS became the go-to standard over CCD.Again, stop thinking "gear" and think business and what benefits people getting paid or running a shop may gain from current digital MF. What lenses are mostly needed for actual work when a MF kit is being used?
I believe it would have helped to have said "As MF level resolutions become more available on FF bodies, that will change ........" (46MP has been available for sometime now)
To answer you question...

(web) The Pentax 645 600mm has been around for a while ;)
(web) The Pentax 645 600mm has been around for a while ;)

--
Teila K. Day
http://teiladay.com
A surprisingly cheap 600mm a 2-4k for a MF lens -- but at 4800 g (169.3 oz.) plus the weight of the camera heavy as heck - not weather-sealed either I note. Clearly a 600mm f/5.6 on the Pentax 645 would have an equivalent effective focal length to a little over a 300mm on an FF body. So a long way from the needs of an action/wildlife photographer in most setups.
 
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