Stated FL vs Actual

As both a long-time photographer and teacher, I strongly support use of the Angle Of View right on the lens when it's a unique mount/sensor combination. It's so much easier for students to understand. And we all can "think," or intuit, 45 deg or 5 degrees when we're viewing a subject and considering a lens selection to shoot it.
The problem is angle of view changes with sensor size, but focal length doesn't.
This is the PERCEPTION, but to say that angle of view changes with sensor size is misleading. Please re-read my post. A given focal length ALWAYS projects the same angle of view in the optical design for ANY photographic lens. The only relationship the sensor size has is how much of that projected angle of view falls on that sensor's size and/or aspect ratio, and how much is lost in the camera's light box. Without emphasizing this basic concept, understanding why your statement is PERCEPTION only becomes difficult.
It is nowhere near that simple. A 50mm lens on 8X10 film would be a fisheye, but that same focal length would be a short telephoto on m4/3. What angle of view do you print on the lens? A Sigma 10-20mm wide angle zoom for APS-C can cover a full frame image circle from 15-20mm. What angle of view do you print on that lens? Many lenses can cover an image circle larger than their native format. Do you just print the angle of view for the native format, ot the largest possible angle of view? If you take the latter, your 50mm f1.4 will likely have a different angle of view than a 50mm f1.8. If you take the former, you also need to clearly label the intended frame size and aspect ratio on every lens. Do you label horizontal angle of view, vertical angle of view, and/or diagonal angle of view?

Labeling any lens for angle of view requires a whole set of ground rules to be established and it also reqires every manufacturer follow the same rules.
AGAIN, reading my original statement makes it very simple:

"the manufacturers also inscribe the angles of coverage FOR THE FORMAT the lens was designed".
And which format would that be? The absolute max image circle which is likely larger than 35mm full frame? What do you label the 50mm f1.8 STM which is one of the most recommended lenses for the M system? What would Sigma, Tamron, and Tokina put on their lenses that use the same design for both Nikon 1.5X crop and Canon 1.6X crop? What about the lenses that use the same design, but different mount and are sold for m4/3 2X crop, Nikon 1.5X crop, Canon 1.6X crop, and full frame?
This effects the vastly greatest number of users. Your arguments have some merit only for the tiny number of people like us who adapt lenses to different formats, yet still may be suspect to some degree. People who use two different matching camera/lens formats simultaneously would be relieved of confusion the most with inscribed angles. But one of your arguments does intrigue me. Please explain the physics that would result in a different f-stop for the same focal length projecting a different circle of coverage.
Many lenses cover an image circle that is larger than their native format. Do you label AOV based on the absolute max image circle, or do you label it based on a specific frame size?
Does the value of pi or the calculation of square roots change in some way in going from one f-stop to another? If you were talking about focal distance, I can more easily see your point, as a lens' focal length is only "correct" at a single focal distance and changing that focal distance can change the projected angle of view slightly (which is why a 400mm lens may only be 389mm at infinity but 400mm at MFD).
In the days of 8mm film projectors, when the movie ended and white light only was being projected, everyone would make rabbit head shadows on the screen with their fingers. Turns out so many years later that this bit of fun with two hands at the same time held equal distance (focal length) from their eyes becomes the perfect example for teaching this basic concept. 75% of students immediately have this moment of understanding (I love teaching when that happens), and then immediately start sharing it with those who don't. Think about it and you may be able to figure out the fun.
Angle of view also changes with aspect ratio. A 50mm f1.8 lens is always a 50mm f1.8 lens regardless of the size of sensor behind the lens or the aspect ratio.
What's more, when we're studying Ansel Adams' prints or maybe even using a large-format view camera, we wouldn't have to guess what focal length was used if we were told the AOV. It sets up understanding of perspective in the results. In other words, AOV would make us as independent of actual focal length (which occurs inside where we can't see it) as we are from the physical size of the aperture by using the single f-stop number, instead of two factors (aperture physical size and focal length).

Why originators of the units in the 19th century simplified one factor and not the other has always baffled me.
Because film sizes and aspect ratios weren't standardized back in the 19th century either.
Trying to teach students the effects of crop factor and what lens to buy based on their sensor size can so puzzle them that they get scared of the technology and learn less. Of course, once you "get it" it's obvious, but not as easy and long-lasting as it could be.

So I applaud opening this subject.
If you really want to scare people, start talking about angles of view. Geometry scares the crap out of most people.
When people are not willing to work with basic concepts to make their work or hobbies or passions or life more enjoyable, that scares the crap out of most teachers. And angle of view is REALLY a basic concept that doesn't even require saying the word geometry. It usually takes just a little bit of knowledge to make life a lot less scary.
Angle of view is really only a basic concept when discussing lenses from fisheye to very short telephoto. Once you get above 200mm on full frame, your angle of view is down in the single digits and is really difficult to visualize. Actually, anything other than 45 or 90 degrees is difficult for a large number of people to visualize. Unless of course if they took geometry.
Not necessarily. Leica told us a century ago that a 46° angle of view (the first lens designed for 35mm film had a 50mm focal length) was very easy for people to discern, as that was perceived to be the angle we are paying general attention to. We also know that it is fairly easy for us to pay attention to more detail by progressively cutting that angle in half. We are using about a 23° (~100mm focal length on 35mm film) angle of view when looking at a person from a short distance and 12° (~200mm) angle when having a conversation. The concept of continuing to cut the angle paid attention to in half, 6° at ~400mm, 3° at ~800mm becomes easy to perceive visually without any need for even simple arithmetic, no geometry required. Even with all the science, photography is a VISUAL art of perceiving light and space. Angles of view become easy.

What will be interesting to see is how the Smartphone camera case evolves. People are accustomed to having their ~4mm lenses on their 1/2.5 or 1/2.3 sensors, though they probably don't know any of those specifications. If they want a different angle of view, they use an app. But more and more auxiliary lens solutions are appearing. Will the OEMs start telling them the focal lengths of these auxiliary lenses? Tell them the nebulous 4X, 8X, etc. factor? Or just let them realize they are now getting a different angle of view.
Mast smartphones are already marketing their cameras using the 35mm equivalent focal length.
Angle of view isn't a REALLY basic concep. It is just a different concept. Equivalent focal lengths are also a lot easier to calculate in your head than equivalent angles of view. 50mm X 1.6 is a lot easier to figure in your head than 46.8 degrees / 1.6.
--
Visit my VisionLight website:
http://edwardmichaellach.zenfolio.com/
Newest images and announcements:
http://edwardmichaellach.zenfolio.com/p833842176
All images sorted by camera in date order:
http://edwardmichaellach.zenfolio.com/f585961546
Tutorials and Articles on Photography and Camera Reviews:
http://edwardmichaellach.zenfolio.com/blog
Supporting Nature through Images at Teatown:
http://edwardmichaellach.zenfolio.com/f266095218
 
Angle of view is purely a calculation based on the focal length of a lens and a linear dimension for the image frame. You can calculate an angle of view for the horizontal, vertical, or diagonal of your frame. Angle of view cannot be defined without knowing the focal length of the lens and your frame size. A 50mm prime would need to be labeled "46.8 degrees on 36mm X 24mm frame"

Quick!!! If I hand you a Sigma lens labeled "62 degrees on 24mm X 16mm frame", what is the AOV on a Canon crop body? Now, what is it on a m4/3 camera?
 
Angle of view is purely a calculation based on the focal length of a lens and a linear dimension for the image frame.
And field distortion and off optical axis angle. A T&S lens can have a different field of view going centre to top or centre to bottom. Read my previous post, AFOV is surprisingly complicated.
 
I don't know why Canon doesn't put the actual focal length when taking into account the crop factor. I think it confuses consumers.
You do know the focal length is an actual length in the lens's optical system, it has nothing to do withe the sensor size. Canon even writes the focal lengths of lenses in compact cameras in what they actually are, regardless of sensor size (1" or 1/2.3").

They might also have an equivalent to 35mm in their press release but, otherwise the focal length is simply what is written on the lens.
 
Angle of view is purely a calculation based on the focal length of a lens and a linear dimension for the image frame.
And field distortion and off optical axis angle. A T&S lens can have a different field of view going centre to top or centre to bottom. Read my previous post, AFOV is surprisingly complicated.
Angle of view calculations are also only relevant for a lens focused at infinity.
--
I regularly work with ionizing radiation. That probably explains a lot about the post you just read.
 
As both a long-time photographer and teacher, I strongly support use of the Angle Of View right on the lens when it's a unique mount/sensor combination. It's so much easier for students to understand. And we all can "think," or intuit, 45 deg or 5 degrees when we're viewing a subject and considering a lens selection to shoot it.
The problem is angle of view changes with sensor size, but focal length doesn't.
This is the PERCEPTION, but to say that angle of view changes with sensor size is misleading. Please re-read my post. A given focal length ALWAYS projects the same angle of view in the optical design for ANY photographic lens. The only relationship the sensor size has is how much of that projected angle of view falls on that sensor's size and/or aspect ratio, and how much is lost in the camera's light box. Without emphasizing this basic concept, understanding why your statement is PERCEPTION only becomes difficult.
It is nowhere near that simple. A 50mm lens on 8X10 film would be a fisheye, but that same focal length would be a short telephoto on m4/3. What angle of view do you print on the lens? A Sigma 10-20mm wide angle zoom for APS-C can cover a full frame image circle from 15-20mm. What angle of view do you print on that lens? Many lenses can cover an image circle larger than their native format. Do you just print the angle of view for the native format, ot the largest possible angle of view? If you take the latter, your 50mm f1.4 will likely have a different angle of view than a 50mm f1.8. If you take the former, you also need to clearly label the intended frame size and aspect ratio on every lens. Do you label horizontal angle of view, vertical angle of view, and/or diagonal angle of view?

Labeling any lens for angle of view requires a whole set of ground rules to be established and it also reqires every manufacturer follow the same rules.
AGAIN, reading my original statement makes it very simple:

"the manufacturers also inscribe the angles of coverage FOR THE FORMAT the lens was designed".

This effects the vastly greatest number of users. Your arguments have some merit only for the tiny number of people like us who adapt lenses to different formats, yet still may be suspect to some degree. People who use two different matching camera/lens formats simultaneously would be relieved of confusion the most with inscribed angles. But one of your arguments does intrigue me. Please explain the physics that would result in a different f-stop for the same focal length projecting a different circle of coverage. Does the value of pi or the calculation of square roots change in some way in going from one f-stop to another? If you were talking about focal distance, I can more easily see your point, as a lens' focal length is only "correct" at a single focal distance and changing that focal distance can change the projected angle of view slightly (which is why a 400mm lens may only be 389mm at infinity but 400mm at MFD).
In the days of 8mm film projectors, when the movie ended and white light only was being projected, everyone would make rabbit head shadows on the screen with their fingers. Turns out so many years later that this bit of fun with two hands at the same time held equal distance (focal length) from their eyes becomes the perfect example for teaching this basic concept. 75% of students immediately have this moment of understanding (I love teaching when that happens), and then immediately start sharing it with those who don't. Think about it and you may be able to figure out the fun.
Angle of view also changes with aspect ratio. A 50mm f1.8 lens is always a 50mm f1.8 lens regardless of the size of sensor behind the lens or the aspect ratio.
What's more, when we're studying Ansel Adams' prints or maybe even using a large-format view camera, we wouldn't have to guess what focal length was used if we were told the AOV. It sets up understanding of perspective in the results. In other words, AOV would make us as independent of actual focal length (which occurs inside where we can't see it) as we are from the physical size of the aperture by using the single f-stop number, instead of two factors (aperture physical size and focal length).

Why originators of the units in the 19th century simplified one factor and not the other has always baffled me.
Because film sizes and aspect ratios weren't standardized back in the 19th century either.
Trying to teach students the effects of crop factor and what lens to buy based on their sensor size can so puzzle them that they get scared of the technology and learn less. Of course, once you "get it" it's obvious, but not as easy and long-lasting as it could be.

So I applaud opening this subject.
If you really want to scare people, start talking about angles of view. Geometry scares the crap out of most people.
When people are not willing to work with basic concepts to make their work or hobbies or passions or life more enjoyable, that scares the crap out of most teachers. And angle of view is REALLY a basic concept that doesn't even require saying the word geometry. It usually takes just a little bit of knowledge to make life a lot less scary.
Angle of view is really only a basic concept when discussing lenses from fisheye to very short telephoto. Once you get above 200mm on full frame, your angle of view is down in the single digits and is really difficult to visualize. Actually, anything other than 45 or 90 degrees is difficult for a large number of people to visualize. Unless of course if they took geometry.
Not necessarily. Leica told us a century ago that a 46° angle of view (the first lens designed for 35mm film had a 50mm focal length) was very easy for people to discern, as that was perceived to be the angle we are paying general attention to. We also know that it is fairly easy for us to pay attention to more detail by progressively cutting that angle in half. We are using about a 23° (~100mm focal length on 35mm film) angle of view when looking at a person from a short distance and 12° (~200mm) angle when having a conversation. The concept of continuing to cut the angle paid attention to in half, 6° at ~400mm, 3° at ~800mm becomes easy to perceive visually without any need for even simple arithmetic, no geometry required. Even with all the science, photography is a VISUAL art of perceiving light and space. Angles of view become easy.
Cutting the angle in half from a 400mm lens to an 800mm lens is easy to calculate, but impossible to visualize. I can easily hold my arms out at a 45 degree included angle and roughly represent a scene. The change from 3 to 6 to 12 is impossible to estimate.
What will be interesting to see is how the Smartphone camera case evolves. People are accustomed to having their ~4mm lenses on their 1/2.5 or 1/2.3 sensors, though they probably don't know any of those specifications. If they want a different angle of view, they use an app. But more and more auxiliary lens solutions are appearing. Will the OEMs start telling them the focal lengths of these auxiliary lenses? Tell them the nebulous 4X, 8X, etc. factor? Or just let them realize they are now getting a different angle of view.
Angle of view isn't a REALLY basic concep. It is just a different concept. Equivalent focal lengths are also a lot easier to calculate in your head than equivalent angles of view. 50mm X 1.6 is a lot easier to figure in your head than 46.8 degrees / 1.6.
--
Visit my VisionLight website:
http://edwardmichaellach.zenfolio.com/
Newest images and announcements:
http://edwardmichaellach.zenfolio.com/p833842176
All images sorted by camera in date order:
http://edwardmichaellach.zenfolio.com/f585961546
Tutorials and Articles on Photography and Camera Reviews:
http://edwardmichaellach.zenfolio.com/blog
Supporting Nature through Images at Teatown:
http://edwardmichaellach.zenfolio.com/f266095218
 
Angle of view is purely a calculation based on the focal length of a lens and a linear dimension for the image frame. You can calculate an angle of view for the horizontal, vertical, or diagonal of your frame. Angle of view cannot be defined without knowing the focal length of the lens and your frame size. A 50mm prime would need to be labeled "46.8 degrees on 36mm X 24mm frame"

Quick!!! If I hand you a Sigma lens labeled "62 degrees on 24mm X 16mm frame", what is the AOV on a Canon crop body? Now, what is it on a m4/3 camera?
You said before that there would have to be standards. Your arguments also seem to imply that Angle of View would replace focal lengths. To the first statement, I agree and state ONCE AGAIN that the angle of view would be inscribed for THE FORMAT THE LENS WAS DESIGNED FOR, a standard. And the standard field of view used for a lens design is now and will remain across the diagonal, negating any concern about the format of the sensor. And at no time did I offer that a lens' focal length would not be inscribed. That is a value that remains very germane to not only precise photographic endeavors, but creative ones as well. I offer a relevant aid that fosters a sense of visual comprehension of what multiple lenses of the same focal length will produce when mounted in front of the sensor size they were designed for, especially when the multiple formats are used side by side (I often use three different formats for the same shoot, using the optimal properties of each to get the job done).

I offer only a possible solution to make photography a little easier for the vast majority of people who do not "discuss" on DPR. A possible solution that when people who do not "discuss" here are presented with usually ask why it is not done that way. Some people here imply that is isn't a good idea with arguments of how an image would be presented after the fact of being take., That is immaterial. Presentations after the fact are decisions made regardless of which focal length/angle of view lens was chosen to begin with (people crop in post, don't they). Stated angle of view of a lens for the format it was designed for may just help them get that final crop IN CAMERA before the fact, requiring less post, by choosing the right lens in the first place (except for all the experts here of course). And some people are just threatened by change. Sorry, although I can understand that, I have no help for it.
 
Angle of view is purely a calculation based on the focal length of a lens and a linear dimension for the image frame.
And field distortion and off optical axis angle. A T&S lens can have a different field of view going centre to top or centre to bottom. Read my previous post, AFOV is surprisingly complicated.
Angle of view calculations are also only relevant for a lens focused at infinity.
Again, close but not entirely true, and I've discussed this earlier. The focal length of a lens is generally determined at two focal distances, MFD and Infinity. I have a 400mm Canon lens that has a focal length of 400mm at MFD and 389mm at infinity. The angle of view differs slightly at both points, but both are relevant. A 50mm lens will often be 52mm at MFD and 50mm at infinity. OEMs can choose either point when marketing their lenses. Now you may counter that this negates the accuracy of my angle of view option, but no more than the different focal lengths across the focal distances.
 
Angle of view is purely a calculation based on the focal length of a lens and a linear dimension for the image frame. You can calculate an angle of view for the horizontal, vertical, or diagonal of your frame. Angle of view cannot be defined without knowing the focal length of the lens and your frame size. A 50mm prime would need to be labeled "46.8 degrees on 36mm X 24mm frame"

Quick!!! If I hand you a Sigma lens labeled "62 degrees on 24mm X 16mm frame", what is the AOV on a Canon crop body? Now, what is it on a m4/3 camera?
 

Attachments

  • 4a02b81c745041639cf2ec6fe5a08ae8.jpg.png
    4a02b81c745041639cf2ec6fe5a08ae8.jpg.png
    89.8 KB · Views: 0
Cutting the angle in half from a 400mm lens to an 800mm lens is easy to calculate, but impossible to visualize. I can easily hold my arms out at a 45 degree included angle and roughly represent a scene. The change from 3 to 6 to 12 is impossible to estimate.
"Impossible" is a very disturbing word to hear from someone who is practicing a visual art. I do have another exercise I do in class to allow even beginners to visualize the view with longer and longer telephoto lenses with no tools available other than their hands. They don't seem to have a problem with it.

We do have to think about science in a digital world. I teach "The Art and Science of Digital Nature Photography" and stress how results can be expanded by learning and applying both. But I also stress even more how being creative in your approach can produce images that people will want to see. Impossible is a word we never consider.

 
Just keep in mind that the blue lens element is not a precise placement, but is indicative only that a lens is in the path of the photons. Except of course if the lens only has a single element, which is unlikely to be a post 19th century photographic lens.

--
Visit my VisionLight website:
http://edwardmichaellach.zenfolio.com/
Newest images and announcements:
http://edwardmichaellach.zenfolio.com/p833842176
All images sorted by camera in date order:
http://edwardmichaellach.zenfolio.com/f585961546
Tutorials and Articles on Photography and Camera Reviews:
http://edwardmichaellach.zenfolio.com/blog
Supporting Nature through Images at Teatown:
http://edwardmichaellach.zenfolio.com/f266095218
 
Last edited:
Cutting the angle in half from a 400mm lens to an 800mm lens is easy to calculate, but impossible to visualize. I can easily hold my arms out at a 45 degree included angle and roughly represent a scene. The change from 3 to 6 to 12 is impossible to estimate.
"Impossible" is a very disturbing word to hear from someone who is practicing a visual art. I do have another exercise I do in class to allow even beginners to visualize the view with longer and longer telephoto lenses with no tools available other than their hands. They don't seem to have a problem with it.
Using an angle of 3 or 6 degrees?
We do have to think about science in a digital world. I teach "The Art and Science of Digital Nature Photography" and stress how results can be expanded by learning and applying both. But I also stress even more how being creative in your approach can produce images that people will want to see. Impossible is a word we never consider.

--
Visit my VisionLight website:
http://edwardmichaellach.zenfolio.com/
Newest images and announcements:
http://edwardmichaellach.zenfolio.com/p833842176
All images sorted by camera in date order:
http://edwardmichaellach.zenfolio.com/f585961546
Tutorials and Articles on Photography and Camera Reviews:
http://edwardmichaellach.zenfolio.com/blog
Supporting Nature through Images at Teatown:
http://edwardmichaellach.zenfolio.com/f266095218
 
Angle of view is purely a calculation based on the focal length of a lens and a linear dimension for the image frame. You can calculate an angle of view for the horizontal, vertical, or diagonal of your frame. Angle of view cannot be defined without knowing the focal length of the lens and your frame size. A 50mm prime would need to be labeled "46.8 degrees on 36mm X 24mm frame"

Quick!!! If I hand you a Sigma lens labeled "62 degrees on 24mm X 16mm frame", what is the AOV on a Canon crop body? Now, what is it on a m4/3 camera?
You said before that there would have to be standards. Your arguments also seem to imply that Angle of View would replace focal lengths. To the first statement, I agree and state ONCE AGAIN that the angle of view would be inscribed for THE FORMAT THE LENS WAS DESIGNED FOR, a standard. And the standard field of view used for a lens design is now and will remain across the diagonal, negating any concern about the format of the sensor. And at no time did I offer that a lens' focal length would not be inscribed. That is a value that remains very germane to not only precise photographic endeavors, but creative ones as well. I offer a relevant aid that fosters a sense of visual comprehension of what multiple lenses of the same focal length will produce when mounted in front of the sensor size they were designed for, especially when the multiple formats are used side by side (I often use three different formats for the same shoot, using the optimal properties of each to get the job done).
Great, you picked the diagonal angle of view. Now I need to tilt my body at 33.7 degrees while also holding my arms out at 46.8 degrees to visualize the scene. And how do you handle labeling lenses from third party manufacturers where the optical design stays constant and only the mount changes? AOV also goes out the window when you are using a camera with in-body crop modes.
I offer only a possible solution to make photography a little easier for the vast majority of people who do not "discuss" on DPR. A possible solution that when people who do not "discuss" here are presented with usually ask why it is not done that way. Some people here imply that is isn't a good idea with arguments of how an image would be presented after the fact of being take., That is immaterial. Presentations after the fact are decisions made regardless of which focal length/angle of view lens was chosen to begin with (people crop in post, don't they). Stated angle of view of a lens for the format it was designed for may just help them get that final crop IN CAMERA before the fact, requiring less post, by choosing the right lens in the first place (except for all the experts here of course). And some people are just threatened by change. Sorry, although I can understand that, I have no help for it.
People don't think in angles anymore than they think in focal lengths. No one walks up to a scene, holds out their arms to frame the scene, and then estimates the angle to be 13.8 degrees to pick the right lens. Using AOV to define the differences between two lenses is a decent comparison, but AOV is fairly nebulous outside the 45-90 degree range. The "vast majority" just buy a camera with a kit lens. From there, any additional lens purchases are situational. I.e. need to get closer, back against a wall, etc.

As for people cropping after the fact, it is completely unrelated to AOV. Either they did a crap job framing the scene(usually with a zoom), or they were too cheap to buy a long enough lens.

Some already complain about the long name on some lenses. A "Tamron SP AF 17-50mm f/2.8 XR Di II LD Aspherical [IF] 76.2 degrees to 29.9 degrees on 22.3 X 14.9mm" just rolls off the tongue. While we're at it, why don't we print T stops on a lens too. Even better, print the physical aperture size in millimeters as that will also make it easier for the newbies to comprehend. Might as well also add the nodal point info. That will be the end of pancake lenses as there won't be enough surface area for all of the info

Of all of the things a new photographer struggles with, AOV is the least of their worries. Printing the AOV on a lens will do nothing to ease the learning curve and really only needlessly complicates things. Especially since the vast majority of lenses are used on multiple different formats and the format sizes are always in flux.
--
Visit my VisionLight website:
http://edwardmichaellach.zenfolio.com/
Newest images and announcements:
http://edwardmichaellach.zenfolio.com/p833842176
All images sorted by camera in date order:
http://edwardmichaellach.zenfolio.com/f585961546
Tutorials and Articles on Photography and Camera Reviews:
http://edwardmichaellach.zenfolio.com/blog
Supporting Nature through Images at Teatown:
http://edwardmichaellach.zenfolio.com/f266095218
 
You are obviously not a teacher who deals with these issues on a regular basis. And you obviously have a closed mind and just keep fighting a possibility, yet do not offer any possibilities of your own. The status quo is a poor excuse for development, so don't even try that. Sorry, but I have no help for you for such a closed mind. We're done.
 
You are obviously not a teacher who deals with these issues on a regular basis. And you obviously have a closed mind and just keep fighting a possibility, yet do not offer any possibilities of your own. The status quo is a poor excuse for development, so don't even try that. Sorry, but I have no help for you for such a closed mind. We're done.
I have asked you several different questions throughout our back and forth and you have refused to respond to any of them. You have yet to provide a rational counter argument to any of the flaws in your methodology outside of some anecdotal evidence that your students supposedly "get it". If you were the great teacher that you claim to be, you should be able to clearly articulate the merits of your methodology. Instead, you shut down and accuse me of being closed minded. How ironic.
--
Visit my VisionLight website:
http://edwardmichaellach.zenfolio.com/
Newest images and announcements:
http://edwardmichaellach.zenfolio.com/p833842176
All images sorted by camera in date order:
http://edwardmichaellach.zenfolio.com/f585961546
Tutorials and Articles on Photography and Camera Reviews:
http://edwardmichaellach.zenfolio.com/blog
Supporting Nature through Images at Teatown:
http://edwardmichaellach.zenfolio.com/f266095218
 
The irony is that you troll these boards looking for an argument and when people decide to move on, away from your inanity, you complain.

You should see a doctor, or buy a dog.
 
The irony is that you troll these boards looking for an argument and when people decide to move on, away from your inanity, you complain.

You should see a doctor, or buy a dog.
maybe i should get a dog ...and some others as nnowak seems to have the most likes

and may i ask how your post adds anything meaningful to this discussion

if someone cannot grasp the concept of FL and crop factors when its primary school math then there is a serious problem with the teacher or the pupil has special needs

any way like nnowak say how the hell will you fit say 24-70mm in AOV for APS-c and FF on a lense and if you did 99% of the population would not have the faintest ider what it meant
--
It's not the camera...
--
My 5D IS a MK1 classic

There is no argument for FF vs APS-c (or m43) with shallow DOF..as it's a law of physics and a very subjective personal thing if you want to make use of the shallow DOF only FF can offer

You are joking ....i have a sony nex ...i think the designers was an anti photographer sadist ...the only way to make it more less enjoyable to use would be to superglue a drawing pin to the shutter button...pin up
...
 
Last edited:
Angle of view is purely a calculation based on the focal length of a lens and a linear dimension for the image frame.
And field distortion and off optical axis angle. A T&S lens can have a different field of view going centre to top or centre to bottom. Read my previous post, AFOV is surprisingly complicated.
Angle of view calculations are also only relevant for a lens focused at infinity.
Again, close but not entirely true, and I've discussed this earlier. The focal length of a lens is generally determined at two focal distances, MFD and Infinity. I have a 400mm Canon lens that has a focal length of 400mm
Is it? How did you calculate that it is actually 400mm.
at MFD and 389mm at infinity.
Oh sure. And how exactly did you calculate that it is 389 at infinity? How did you determine the front and back nodal point?
The angle of view differs slightly at both points, but both are relevant. A 50mm lens will often be 52mm at MFD and 50mm at infinity. OEMs can choose either point when marketing their lenses. Now you may counter that this negates the accuracy of my angle of view option, but no more than the different focal lengths across the focal distances.
--
I regularly work with ionizing radiation. That probably explains a lot about the post you just read.
--
Visit my VisionLight website:
http://edwardmichaellach.zenfolio.com/
Newest images and announcements:
http://edwardmichaellach.zenfolio.com/p833842176
All images sorted by camera in date order:
http://edwardmichaellach.zenfolio.com/f585961546
Tutorials and Articles on Photography and Camera Reviews:
http://edwardmichaellach.zenfolio.com/blog
Supporting Nature through Images at Teatown:
http://edwardmichaellach.zenfolio.com/f266095218
 
The comment was meant to be personal. But you butted, so okay.

The camera companies took the easy way. In a previous post I used the P&S dilemma - how do you explain a lens that is 7mm-21mm without using the equivalent 35mm-105mm.

Photography has always been complicated. Sean McHugh at Cambridge in Color has done a very good job explaining modern digital techniques while this site sells cameras and host forums that do little to help the general public understanding.

Sure, log on, ask a question, people will help. But the tutorial aspect never fleshed out.

I also mentioned (before) that when Canon developed the EF-S line for the xxD and Rebel lines they had an opportunity to acknowledge the crop factor but they didn't and that's what happens when marketing wins.

If you use full frame lenses on a crop then that's on you.

So buy a dog, see a doctor, or accept the world as it is. The camera companies will continue to quote equivalent FL when it helps sales, and actual FL when it helps sales. You're not going to change it.

Fat chance the sales team running this site would even try.
--
It's not the camera...
 
Angle of view calculations are also only relevant for a lens focused at infinity.
Again, close but not entirely true, and I've discussed this earlier. The focal length of a lens is generally determined at two focal distances, MFD and Infinity. I have a 400mm Canon lens that has a focal length of 400mm at MFD
Is it? How did you calculate that it is actually 400mm.
and 389mm at infinity.
Oh sure. And how exactly did you calculate that it is 389 at infinity? How did you determine the front and back nodal point?
Since you have the knowledge to ask these questions, the answer should be obvious. And even though the lack of respect in your statements "Is it?" and "Oh sure" makes you sound like a troll (though your prior post above asking if I had two accounts also lacked respect, so you probably are nothing more than a troll), I will have the courtesy to give you that obvious answer.

If you have an associate, friend or family member whose business has the appropriate equipment, or you can afford to pay for it, you can find out anything you want to know about your particular copy of a lens. Then anything you read online about another copy of the same lens becomes nothing more than information about only the copy tested.

--
Visit my VisionLight website:
http://edwardmichaellach.zenfolio.com/
Newest images and announcements:
http://edwardmichaellach.zenfolio.com/p833842176
All images sorted by camera in date order:
http://edwardmichaellach.zenfolio.com/f585961546
Tutorials and Articles on Photography and Camera Reviews:
http://edwardmichaellach.zenfolio.com/blog
Supporting Nature through Images at Teatown:
http://edwardmichaellach.zenfolio.com/f266095218
 
Last edited:

Keyboard shortcuts

Back
Top