White Balance with Landscapes

cpharm86

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I don't shoot a lot of landscape shots but when I do I use Lightroom as my main editing software. I'm just curious what WB temperature you use most of the time or you just use what looks personally appealing to the photograph?

I took a recent series of landscapes and was editing them using auto, as shot and Daylight WB settings.

Just looking for suggestions. There is not much difference in WB between the "As Shot WB" and the "Daylight WB". The first photo was "Auto WB" showing 7500K

Here are the 3 shots.

Thank you




Auto WB 7500K










As Shot 5400K




Daylight 5500 K
 
I don't shoot a lot of landscape shots but when I do I use Lightroom as my main editing software. I'm just curious what WB temperature you use most of the time or you just use what looks personally appealing to the photograph?
Temperature changes during the course of the day. It can change with the location. A forest for example with light filters by leaves will be different then a open meadow.

You need to ask yourself are you doing "art" or are you doing documentary?

Art needs to work for you and your vision

Daylight is a bit of a myth. IIRC the standard for daylight was set in Washington,DC . I think summer around noon. The odds your "daylight" matches perfectly the standard "daylight" is pretty low.
 
I'm just curious what WB temperature you use most of the time or you just use what looks personally appealing to the photograph?
The latter. I stay away from auto adjustments of all kinds and rarely pay any attention to numbers like color temperature. Train your eye to see subtle differences in color, luminance, contrast, etc., and you won't have to rely on numbers or auto settings -- and I think you'll produce more pleasing photos.

My edit below of your Auto WB version consisted of a few tweaks in ACR (temp, exposure and blacks, plus some adjustments in the color panel to bring out the green grass a little better), and a curves adjustment in Photoshop (gentle S-curve).



eee48e4c1fc5474496a123b3d90b7881.jpg



17b25a27597d4c7992c73999a98f12b6.jpg
 
I usually stick with AWB and tweak to taste in post processing. I've measured "daylight" scenes with a color temperature meter and it can vary from a warm 3200 degrees Kelvin (tungsten) sunset to 20,000 degrees Kelvin (open shade illuminated by a pure blue sky.)
 
I'm just curious what WB temperature you use most of the time or you just use what looks personally appealing to the photograph?
The latter. I stay away from auto adjustments of all kinds and rarely pay any attention to numbers like color temperature. Train your eye to see subtle differences in color, luminance, contrast, etc., and you won't have to rely on numbers or auto settings -- and I think you'll produce more pleasing photos.

My edit below of your Auto WB version consisted of a few tweaks in ACR (temp, exposure and blacks, plus some adjustments in the color panel to bring out the green grass a little better), and a curves adjustment in Photoshop (gentle S-curve).

eee48e4c1fc5474496a123b3d90b7881.jpg

17b25a27597d4c7992c73999a98f12b6.jpg
Thank you Sabrina, good advice.
 
At a recent photo club meeting, some professionals critiqued photographs submitted by members, and the pro who critiqued mine (what I thought was the world's most beautiful landscape taken last year in Glacier National Park) said, "Obviously it's too blue." Well, it wasn't obvious to me, but after he warmed up the white balance a bit I realized that it was too blue. The sandstone in my photo was grey instead of tan. Oops. Similar experience when someone pointed out that in a picture of the family sitting under a tree everyone had a greenish tint. Oops. I hadn't noticed that until it was pointed out, at which point it was perfectly obvious. I'm a newbie and just learning the trade, but what I'm learning is that my brain is doing some weird white balance auto-corrections behind the scenes (it apparently knows my relations aren't green) and thwarting my ability to notice circumstances where the camera's white balance is producing colors don't match reality.

So, the question for me, if I apply these lessons to your photos, would be in which of the photos does the green of the grass, for example, match the actual color? Did the grass have a noticeable yellowish tinge as in photo 1? Similarly, was the bimini of the boat tanish or greyish? I'd be happy if I can learn to take my brain's auto-corrections out of the loop and, as pointed out above, see the scene in front of me, see the photographic rendition of it, and objectively compare the two.

Skip
 
I totally agree. I have (unfortunately) just recently paid sufficient attention to WB and it makes a HUGE difference, pre and post-shot in PP. I use an old version of Photoshop Elements. Sometimes just letting it Autocorrect WB is appropriate, but sometimes it isn't. That's when I toggle between the typical settings or manually adjust.

Gary
 
At a recent photo club meeting, some professionals critiqued photographs submitted by members, and the pro who critiqued mine (what I thought was the world's most beautiful landscape taken last year in Glacier National Park) said, "Obviously it's too blue." Well, it wasn't obvious to me, but after he warmed up the white balance a bit I realized that it was too blue. The sandstone in my photo was grey instead of tan. Oops. Similar experience when someone pointed out that in a picture of the family sitting under a tree everyone had a greenish tint. Oops. I hadn't noticed that until it was pointed out, at which point it was perfectly obvious. I'm a newbie and just learning the trade, but what I'm learning is that my brain is doing some weird white balance auto-corrections behind the scenes (it apparently knows my relations aren't green) and thwarting my ability to notice circumstances where the camera's white balance is producing colors don't match reality.

So, the question for me, if I apply these lessons to your photos, would be in which of the photos does the green of the grass, for example, match the actual color? Did the grass have a noticeable yellowish tinge as in photo 1? Similarly, was the bimini of the boat tanish or greyish? I'd be happy if I can learn to take my brain's auto-corrections out of the loop and, as pointed out above, see the scene in front of me, see the photographic rendition of it, and objectively compare the two.

Skip
You can train your eye to see when a photo is too blue, as you learned at the photo club meeting. But remembering the "actual color" of the grass is a different kind of problem entirely. Many photographers think they remember a scene as it "really" was, but they don't understand how faulty their memory of color really is (and therefore why their "faithful" photographs are works of fiction).

Your memory of colors isn't as good as you think it is

Memory Of Color Shades: Why The Human Brain Struggles To Remember Color

Try it: Memories of color are surprisingly vague
 
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The Auto WB of Canon is pretty good, but has its flaws.

So, I always use Custom WB. Can be done in a few seconds with a WB lens-cap.

There are some exceptions, e.g when shooting at sunset you want to have those nicecolors. Then I use a Custom WB that I saved hours earlier

--
TheBlackGrouse
Active Outdoor Photographer
 
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I am also guilty of not paying attention to the actual colors when I edit. I just tend to make adjustments based on how I would like the photo to be.

To answer your question, I don't remember the color of the grass or boat. :-D I just attempted to try canned WB settings rather than custom settings.
 
I don't know much about WB lens-caps. I would think they might be good in some situations. If your subject is in the shade and you shoot in direct sunlight the WB will be off on your subject since the sun will hit the camera directly giving you about 5500k vs your subject in the shade around 7700K or so.
 
I don't know much about WB lens-caps. I would think they might be good in some situations. If your subject is in the shade and you shoot in direct sunlight the WB will be off on your subject since the sun will hit the camera directly giving you about 5500k vs your subject in the shade around 7700K or so.
Don't get hung up on finding the correct white balance. More often than not, it comes down to a choice between the correct white balance and the best (most aesthetically pleasing) photograph. You can't achieve the latter by chasing numbers. Forget the numbers. Train your eye.
 
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Agree Sabrina. It's easy to get hung up with numbers. I typically edit to my preference. Im open to critique when I obviously make some poor editing judgements or have a poor composed picture or lighting issues. Those are suggestions that are welcome and are good learning experiences.
 
I don't know much about WB lens-caps. I would think they might be good in some situations. If your subject is in the shade and you shoot in direct sunlight the WB will be off on your subject since the sun will hit the camera directly giving you about 5500k vs your subject in the shade around 7700K or so.
Agree, you can set Custom WB while standing in that shadow. In general, it is a lot of work to place grey cards near your subjects, especially if they are mountains or birds ;-)
 
The mistake most photographers make is to think of colour in terms of absolute values and "correct" colour. Both assumptions will lead to you mis-understanding colour and how it works.

Colour is not a property of light but how the eye "sees" different wavelengths of light, and the eye does not see in absolute values but only in relative values. It is only in comparison that we see a relative difference. For instance SkipRD only sees the colour cast when comparing the two images and not in the one image alone. Even when you learn to look at an image and can see that maybe it looks too blue it is mainly because you're comparing it to a memory of how you think it should look.

Perception and Memory

Sabrina is quite correct here. Many photographers talk of differing perceptions between people as though it's an excuse that allows them not to bother learning about colour, "your perception may be a little different to mine."

If you and I were to match colour swatches side by side, (assuming no defects in vision), and were then to compare our matched swatches side by side we would both agree that they were identical. It does not matter, (and impossible to prove), if my blue is your red what matters is that if I colour balance a photo in direct comparison to the original scene my version would look correct to you just as your version would look correct to me. They would be consistent. To all intensive purposes colour perception, (the way the eye physically sees colour), is assumed to be the same for everybody.

However if you and I were to match colour swatches by looking at a colour then immediately finding a match based on memory alone you would find that virtually none of matched swatches would be identical.

We do not perceive colour differently but our memory of what we think we just saw can vary tremendously.

Glancing and looking

There are two other processes at work and by far the least understood is the difference between glancing and looking, again I agree with Sabrina in that you have to train your eye to look rather than glance.

With the assumption that vision is absolute, and because the camera captures absolute values, comes the assumption that suddenly a print or image on a monitor can show absolute and real colour. But this is absolute nonsense, (that is the only absolute thing about it ;-) ).

What you see in your mind is not a direct connection to the eye but a construct of the brain. The eye is not a very good optical instrument, but it has amazing resolution and centre sharpness. What you see is really a result of your eye scanning the scene and your brain piecing it all together as a coherent whole. With the resolution of the eye this can take a small but measurable amount of time to process.

The thing is that if you just glance then you do not give the eye or brain time to scan and present you with a complete picture. In such cases what you think you see as absolute is in fact your memory filling in the gaps. As much as 90% of what you thought you just saw can be your brain presenting you with a view of what you expect to see. Do not underestimate your brain's ability to correct and alter what the eye sees so it fits in with your logical expectations.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing

Perhaps the most difficult thing to understand and believe is that once you create a framework and a logic to how you think things should be you then become effectively blind to anything beyond it.

I'll try and give an example to illustrate. You're in a gallery and making a technical copy of a Monet. Very cleverly you light the image so as not to get any specular reflections, you expose and capture the information perfectly. You then get it back to your monitor correct the WB and set your black and white points.

Hang on, is there an assumption in there? You're processing to the logic you understand and what you assume to be correct and in doing so have completely failed to look at and understand what you're photographing. Monet seldom used a black point, his omission of it was deliberate. How many of you would have thought to even look and check this and how many would just automatically follow a process they assume is correct? How does this lack of a black point affect the colour in the images? How would you know if you've never actually noticed it and never look for it? You're effectively blind to any process outside your own because you only see images in reference to the processes you understand, and with it you loose a wealth of information about how Monet understood and used colour.

The same with a real landscape, if you just process to what you assume to be correct then you fail to look and understand how colour really works and how you can vary yourapproach to produce different moods and effects.

Colour is relative and not absolute

An old trick? Optical illusion? No it is in fact a very good indication of how your eye actually sees colour. If we look at the image below which side looks more yellow?

d6c1081d1cf1498987f58279b7ec4a4b.jpg

They are in fact both exactly the same. Now to go one step further, by changing the luminosity of the yellow I get the following. Now open both up in separate tabs on your browser and flick between them. Which side changes the most?

5b719823fd37438ca4d3a9600b12d896.jpg

Again the second image has exactly the same yellow on both sides, so why does the yellow on the right appear to change more?

It does this because our perception of colour is largely relative. Though you'll never stop a bright yellow being yellow, how bright/dark or vibrant/dull it looks is largely influenced by the colour it is shown with and not it's absolute quality. Many think of colour as absolute in that if they want to make something more yellow then they add more yellow and turn up the saturation. They then completely fail to see that they have actually made it look a lot duller than before, (because they are effectively blind to anything beyond the process they assume to be correct).

If you want yellow darker then show it against white, lighter then show it against black, and if you want it more yellow then contrast it against blue.

The yellow on the right appears to change more because the interval between it and it's ground changes more. The yellow is no longer an absolute value or colour. It not only changes depending on the colours it's shown against but how much it appears to change is also dependant on the interval between the colours it's shown against. Even on the same image the same colour can look different. What is demonstrated here is that the appearance of colour does not have an absolute numerical value, that because we see it as different does not mean it has a different absolute value and that how colourful something looks depends on the way the different colours interact and not their absolute values.

So how does this affect WB?

Easy, the best WB is the balance of colours that gives you the best contrast or most colour, the point at which the variation of colour works best, (a colour cast adds the same hue to everything and so reduces variation, contrast and the appearance of colour). It is the one that's closer to what the eye expects to see so the eye does not correct it so much when viewers only glance, and because we do not all expect to see the same then you can vary it a little by making it slightly warmer or cooler. You could also increase the interval between the warmer and cooler colours to give more punch without reaching for the saturation slider. ;-)

Above all it's not the one that corresponds to a specific number or absolute value.

The far right is your original, the far left is a more real rendition for a mid-day sun. But a real rendition is normally quite un-rewarding. The middle is a slightly warmer touch. Now you may have thought at first that there was no difference between the far left and the middle, if you only glanced, but look a little closer...

3491e2863c00408da4c804b4e16cd940.jpg
 
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Wow, thank you for taking the time for this explanation. You did a nice job with the presentation. I read it this morning on an i-phone so had to read it again tonight on a nice monitor to get more of an understanding of your concepts.

Your last paragraph sums it up. Thank you again for taking the time to present this.
 
The far right is your original, the far left is a more real rendition for a mid-day sun. But a real rendition is normally quite un-rewarding. The middle is a slightly warmer touch. Now you may have thought at first that there was no difference between the far left and the middle, if you only glanced, but look a little closer...
An excellent explanation of how logical thought processes (including "rules" of all kinds) can confuse our perception of color (and a lot of other stuff). I've edited the middle section of your final image to underscore a point.

If we saw only the far-left edit applied to the whole image, I think most people would say it looked normal, realistic. If we saw only my center edit applied to the entire image, again I think most would say it looks normal or realistic. The pre-editing trick when looking at the image straight out of the camera is to be able to mentally envision all such outcomes, and then edit to achieve your vision. But that envisioning ability gets short-circuited when we start thinking in the logical terms of numbers or rules.

53398adec00d4992bc54faa71c140d3f.jpg

Betty Edwards made the same point in her book about drawing on the right side of the brain. When beginning students try to copy a drawing of a person, they usually make a mess of it. But if they turn the drawing upside down and copy it, they do much better.

Why? Because in the first case, they are unconsciously applying various rules stored in their brains about how a person "should" look, and then drawing according to those rules. The upside-down case works better because their learned rules don't apply to upside-down people. Or as Just Tim put it:
Perhaps the most difficult thing to understand and believe is that once you create a framework and a logic to how you think things should be you then become effectively blind to anything beyond it.
Grass should be green, skies should be blue, whites and blacks should be neutral, you should never shoot down on a person, the tops of heads should never be cropped off, subjects should be framed in accordance with the rule of thirds, etc., etc., etc. When we load our minds up with all these linguistic "shoulds," it's no wonder we don't see things as they are, or envision them as they might be.
 
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To the original poster

You "should" periodically clean your sensor. Some serious dust bunnies running around on there. ;-)

Look at the sky using the "loupe" in the gallery and you will see lots of little round darkish blobs in the sky. Easy to clone out but better to wet clean once in a while.
 
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