Need photography advice. Want to upgrade from crop sensor to full frame. What should be my next step

I've had my beloved 600D for more than 3 years now.

Lenes:

• Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 IS II
• Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 STM
• Canon EF-S 55-250 mm f/4-5,6 IS
• Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L II USM

Recently I bought the 24-70 2.8 L, with having an upgrade to full frame in future in mind. Now, the lens is already performing very good on my 600D. Due to the crop sensor I can't go wide with this lens and that annoys me at times. I don't know why, but I have developed a thing in my mind that I need to go wide. I dont hate this focal length, it becomes a really nice telephoto lens. I've taken some grate portraits with it.

Before I go any further, a little background and what I want to achieve from this:

I do not have any commercial experience in Photography. I have been doing it mostly as a hobby. Mainly street photography. But I am considering to start a photography "business". I plan to start small, like taking portraits and photographing small events for not a lot of money. If I see that I like it - quiet sure that I'll like it as I'm not very happy with my job - I'll assist some good photographer and build my portfolio in event and wedding photography. And then finally sart my own wedding / event / corporate photography business on the side and then if things work out, go full time. (I know, I am wording it naively simple).

So for event event / wedding photography, I think my 600D can not handel it, it least not if I want to deliver optimal quality. I feel frustrated in low light conditions. After ISO 800 image practically looses it's high quality. Therefore I think I should upgrade to a Full-Frame body a long with some good lens and flash plus some other accessories.

I am willing to invest about 5000-6000 euros. And obviously want to make this money back from my photography earnings

Regarding the full frame camera, what would be the most logical and practical choice for me? Canon 6D or 5D Mark III? What I have learned till now is for wedding photography 5D M III is the standard (at least for canon). But I haven't heard bad about 6D either, specially the higher ISO performance.

My heart says 5D Mark III, it's more like, "I want it". It also seems like a decent option for the long run. But on the other hand, if I go for 6D I'll save 1000 euros on the body straight ahead. And after a year or so - if I'm making money out of photography - upgrade to 5D Mark III, as the price would be lower because of 5D M IV.

I would also like to invest in some good lens, like 70-200 2.8 L. Or 85mm 1.2 L. I am sounding like a canon fan boy right now, but It's more because I think that "I need the best quality".

What lens should be my next purchase if I go full frame? You can add your favorites as well. I've seen that there are some good Sigma lenses out there.

My research on flashes is limited, so I don't know how much should I should invest in them. Was thinking of getting some decent Yongnuo flash. Are the worth it? Specially in the beginning.

I know there are a lot of questions, but I have an positive impression of this subreddit.

I thank you in advance for your answers.

With not enough experience hold your money in your pocket.

What ever you spend should get a planned ROI otherwise you business model will never work.

So be able to take the pictures before you go on a spending spree.

Also have a look on how you are going to market yourself (portfolio/website), proximity in which you want to work, fees and what you're actually going to deliver (prints, framed or not, negatives etc.).

Being able to take the pictures is only half of what it takes to make a living out of it.

Just don't buy anything overnight.

Hope this helps.

Without enough experience I sold my T5i and bought the Canon 6D. My life has been filled with making decisions with out enough experience and they turned out just fine. If you are not living paycheck by paycheck, buying a quality FF camera has limited financial risk. You may not get the exact amount you paid for it if you find it was not the right choice, or you want to move up again, but your loss will be limited as a percent of the total purchase price.

I bought the 6D because I decided to move from landscape and wildlife photography to studio / headshot / portrait photography. I know zero about wedding photography and have no desire to find out so can't help you from that perspective.

When buying expensive objects I do a risk assessment in advance of the purchase to determine what the size of the loss would be if I had to sell the object 90 days later. This is my risk factor. This influences what I ultimately purchase. Said simply it comes down to risk versus reward. You want to make gains, you have to put something at risk.

If you are thinking of exploring doing photography for others and don't want to lose your shirt if it fails, buying used will help, as long as you are prepared to test items for problems as soon as possible and have some kind of returns policy. Then if you need to sell used items later, you won't need to take more than a 10-20% hit on them after auction fees if you chose well.

Yongnuo & Nissin can help you start out in flash cheap, you just need to read the reviews. Off the top of my head things like YN568 II, YN600, Di866 II and a wireless trigger like YN-E3 or Di700a system would get you started. Then you'll need lighting gear like stands etc for portraits.

You absolutely need a backup camera if you are going to attempt work for money. You'll have to ask yourself if you can really do the same sort of thing with your APS-C camera if necessary or whether you should find an older Canon FF for backup.

I'm not really fussed about the difference between the 5D III and 6D for non-sport events, I think you just need a second FF.

Zayn123 said:

... So for event event / wedding photography, I think my 600D can not [handle] it, it least not if I want to deliver optimal quality.

Click to expand...

Make sure, first, that it's not your lighting, technique, or post-processing. Because those matter more than crop or full frame imnsho.

Zayn123 said:

I feel frustrated in low light conditions. After ISO 800 image practically [loses] it's high quality. Therefore I think I should upgrade to a Full-Frame body along with some good lens and flash plus some other accessories.

Click to expand...

Just me? Do the flash thing first. That's probably going to get more expensive than you can possibly imagine by the time you're done getting modifiers and/or studio strobes. Entering the lighting world is very much like getting your first dSLR--you'll find you'll want a lot more stuff than you imagined with your first purchase.

Zayn123 said:

My research on flashes is limited, so I don't know how much should I should invest in them.

Click to expand...

Bwah-ha-ha-ha!

Look at it this way. You start with one $100 flash, and a $40 trigger. Great. You have a key light. Now you want a fill. That's another flash (+trigger, stand, swivel, modifier). Now you need a hair light. A background light. Maybe two strip lights. A reflector. A background. A background stand, a bag to put it all in. Not to mention all the batteries.

Now add a studio strobe and realize all your stands/modifiers are too small...

Just me? Prepare to spend like a mofo; I say have at least a $500 to start with, and prepare to spend a whole lot more if you decide you need "the best". Profoto B1s are roughly $2100 apiece.

Zayn123 said:

Was thinking of getting some decent Yongnuo flash. Are the worth it? Specially in the beginning.

Click to expand...

No. Not any more, now that Godox has an integrated system with upgrade paths Yongnuo users can only dream about. If you want to start super-cheap and small, go with a TT600/TT685 and X1T-C transmitter. If you want to start out with gear you can use on pro shoots, but stick with tiny underpowered speedlights, then get a V850II or V860II (if you need TTL for on-camera event shooting) which have the equivalent of an external battery pack built-in. If you want something bigger, consider the new AD200 or older AD360II bare bulb flashes. Studio strobe, the AD600 is battery-powered, TTL/HSS, and easily converted into a pack'n'head (for boom use this rocks), or an outlet-powered studio strobe.

Flash power is like max. aperture on a lens. The more you have, the more you can do, but the more expensive and bigger/heavier the gear gets.

kli said:

Zayn123 said:

... So for event event / wedding photography, I think my 600D can not [handle] it, it least not if I want to deliver optimal quality.

Click to expand...

Make sure, first, that it's not your lighting, technique, or post-processing. Because those matter more than crop or full frame imnsho.

kli said:

I feel frustrated in low light conditions. After ISO 800 image practically [loses] it's high quality. Therefore I think I should upgrade to a Full-Frame body along with some good lens and flash plus some other accessories.

Click to expand...

Just me? Do the flash thing first. That's probably going to get more expensive than you can possibly imagine by the time you're done getting modifiers and/or studio strobes. Entering the lighting world is very much like getting your first dSLR--you'll find you'll want a lot more stuff than you imagined with your first purchase.

kli said:

My research on flashes is limited, so I don't know how much should I should invest in them.

Click to expand...

Bwah-ha-ha-ha!

Look at it this way. You start with one $100 flash, and a $40 trigger. Great. You have a key light. Now you want a fill. That's another flash (+trigger, stand, swivel, modifier). Now you need a hair light. A background light. Maybe two strip lights. A reflector. A background. A background stand, a bag to put it all in. Not to mention all the batteries.

Now add a studio strobe and realize all your stands/modifiers are too small...

Just me? Prepare to spend like a mofo; I say have at least a $500 to start with, and prepare to spend a whole lot more if you decide you need "the best". Profoto B1s are roughly $2100 apiece.

kli said:

Was thinking of getting some decent Yongnuo flash. Are the worth it? Specially in the beginning.

Click to expand...

No. Not any more, now that Godox has an integrated system with upgrade paths Yongnuo users can only dream about. If you want to start super-cheap and small, go with a TT600/TT685 and X1T-C transmitter. If you want to start out with gear you can use on pro shoots, but stick with tiny underpowered speedlights, then get a V850II or V860II (if you need TTL for on-camera event shooting) which have the equivalent of an external battery pack built-in. If you want something bigger, consider the new AD200 or older AD360II bare bulb flashes. Studio strobe, the AD600 is battery-powered, TTL/HSS, and easily converted into a pack'n'head (for boom use this rocks), or an outlet-powered studio strobe.

Flash power is like max. aperture on a lens. The more you have, the more you can do, but the more expensive and bigger/heavier the gear gets.

Click to expand...

This. I cannot rate this advice highly enough!

FF will help your image quality concerns but will never solve them. If you are at, say, ISO 1000 with your 600D a FF camera will only drop that to ISO 500...but, more importantly, at the same aperture & shutter speed combo. Since you were struggling to get enough light with the crop sensor camera, because you were already at ISO 1000, it meant that the camera had already dropped down to its lowest comfortable programmed shutter speed, at the aperture you selected, before cranking that ISO (assuming Av mode). Therefore the 1 stop improvement to FF can't adequately split to improve both ISO quality and action-stopping shutter speed at the same time to get you the true level of differences that you hope to achieve.

In other words: there's a reason that pros use flash and not strictly rely on ambient light during important indoor shoots.

Start your flash system and your experimentation in it. You will actual find out (after the expense! ) that it is extremely fun and enjoyable to learn how to use your new flash equipment. It is not rocket science and it reacts linearly to your whims and desires, making you feel like a hero as you tune it and get just what you want. Unlike ambient, it is yours to totally control and it is a wonderful thing!

And, like kli's fantastic post, IMHO start off with Godox. I am looking to switch over myself as Godox introduces models compatible with my system, from OEM flashes and separate triggers, so save yourself the extra steps and costs of what others like me had to do and go with a great modular system from the get-go.

kli said:

Zayn123 said:

... So for event event / wedding photography, I think my 600D can not [handle] it, it least not if I want to deliver optimal quality.

Click to expand...

Make sure, first, that it's not your lighting, technique, or post-processing. Because those matter more than crop or full frame imnsho.

kli said:

I feel frustrated in low light conditions. After ISO 800 image practically [loses] it's high quality. Therefore I think I should upgrade to a Full-Frame body along with some good lens and flash plus some other accessories.

Click to expand...

Just me? Do the flash thing first.

Click to expand...

As to the "do the flash thing first" that's a great idea. Here is a link to a great presentation on just how much you can do with speedlites:


While I recently bought studio monolights I am now going to bring my to two speedlites into the mix.

Some of the answers here come across as if you have to fill out an application form and have your talents assessed before you can purchase a FF camera..

When I purchased my FF camera, would my skills have passed this panel? Not a chance.

Did I earn my cold hard cash, and spend it as I wish? Damn right.

The question here is; do I want to take another stepping stone with a camera, or go straight to the end game? the 6D & 5D IV both do the same thing, just the latter does everything that little better, and it adds up. Now, as much as you can start doing plenty of bits of paid work on a 6D (car dealerships, estate agents were my bag), weddings may be a bit of a push. There's plenty of wedding photographers out there who use the 6D, but I'd be a little bit nervous around the 1 card slot. 1x corrupt card, and your reputation is shot.

Either camera will be great. I was happy as Larry with the 6D for a good 6 months before I started getting itchy and purchased the 5D IV - simply because I wanted to (and no, my skills still wouldn't pass the Canon FF assessment panel, but I don't care!).