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Man arrested for taking photos of cheerleaders pt. II

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REBlue said:
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/59411168

I came into the discussion too late to get in a comment on this topic due to it having reached the maximum number of comments, so I have opted to go with an addendum. I hope that does not violate any rules.

Like many others in the thread, I can appreciate the concerns of the cheerleaders and their families about the situation. On the other hand, I am bothered by the implications of the arrest. Many in this topic talked about child pornography in this situation, and this particularly bothered me. If his actions are viewed as child pornography, then isn't it the organizers of the competition that are producing child pornography? The man arrested did not dress/undress the cheerleaders, did not direct their actions or in any way control what the cheerleaders did or how they did it. One poster suggested that the photos may violate the federal laws on pornography as a "visual depiction of sexually explicit conduct involving a minor". I would have to question whether a cheerleading routine, albeit many are highly sexualized, could be described as "sexually explicit conduct." Even so, would that not be the problem of the coach who choreographed the routine and chose the uniforms? Presumably whatever body parts he concentrated on were clothed to the extent that the organizers and the cheerleaders' parents deemed appropriate to the situation. How has he produced child pornography? He recorded an event, he did not create or control it.

This also is not like the situations where people plant cameras in locker rooms or dressing rooms, or position cameras under women's clothing in public places. From all appearances, the man had a legal right to be where he was at and to take photos; at least the article does not suggest anything to the contrary on either point. There could scarcely be an expectation of privacy in performing in a venue open to the public. Even those cases that have dealt with things like the subway creepers who try to shoot upskirt photos have tied their rulings to the concept that the victims had an expectation of privacy that their undergarments and genital areas would remain unexposed. Can that really be said for most cheerleading outfits and activities?

Without seeing the actual photographs, it is hard to say whether what the man did was improper, but still not necessarily illegal. In our troubled and somewhat paranoid world today, the enjoyment of our mutual hobby/profession of photography is being beset on all sides by more restrictions. In the post 9/11 and Oklahoma City world, we can no longer photograph government buildings and other "sensitive" locations. Some countries are essentially banning street photography, and I'm not talking about the Bruce Gildin kind of street photography (a whole other issue). So I agree that this is indeed a slippery slope we are venturing onto. While I may not necessarily like what this guy did, I think that him being convicted of some offense, especially a sex related offense would be a very troubling precedent.
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Zulia Era said:
REBlue said:
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/59411168

I came into the discussion too late to get in a comment on this topic due to it having reached the maximum number of comments, so I have opted to go with an addendum. I hope that does not violate any rules.

Like many others in the thread, I can appreciate the concerns of the cheerleaders and their families about the situation. On the other hand, I am bothered by the implications of the arrest. Many in this topic talked about child pornography in this situation, and this particularly bothered me. If his actions are viewed as child pornography, then isn't it the organizers of the competition that are producing child pornography? The man arrested did not dress/undress the cheerleaders, did not direct their actions or in any way control what the cheerleaders did or how they did it. One poster suggested that the photos may violate the federal laws on pornography as a "visual depiction of sexually explicit conduct involving a minor". I would have to question whether a cheerleading routine, albeit many are highly sexualized, could be described as "sexually explicit conduct." Even so, would that not be the problem of the coach who choreographed the routine and chose the uniforms? Presumably whatever body parts he concentrated on were clothed to the extent that the organizers and the cheerleaders' parents deemed appropriate to the situation. How has he produced child pornography? He recorded an event, he did not create or control it.

This also is not like the situations where people plant cameras in locker rooms or dressing rooms, or position cameras under women's clothing in public places. From all appearances, the man had a legal right to be where he was at and to take photos; at least the article does not suggest anything to the contrary on either point. There could scarcely be an expectation of privacy in performing in a venue open to the public. Even those cases that have dealt with things like the subway creepers who try to shoot upskirt photos have tied their rulings to the concept that the victims had an expectation of privacy that their undergarments and genital areas would remain unexposed. Can that really be said for most cheerleading outfits and activities?

Without seeing the actual photographs, it is hard to say whether what the man did was improper, but still not necessarily illegal. In our troubled and somewhat paranoid world today, the enjoyment of our mutual hobby/profession of photography is being beset on all sides by more restrictions. In the post 9/11 and Oklahoma City world, we can no longer photograph government buildings and other "sensitive" locations. Some countries are essentially banning street photography, and I'm not talking about the Bruce Gildin kind of street photography (a whole other issue). So I agree that this is indeed a slippery slope we are venturing onto. While I may not necessarily like what this guy did, I think that him being convicted of some offense, especially a sex related offense would be a very troubling precedent.
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TN Args said:
Michael Fryd said:
...
But you are correct in that the police don't always get it right. Sometimes they do arrest and charge the wrong guy. That's why we have the courts and trials.
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Much, much too late. As I pointed out to you earlier in this thread.
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It sounds like your issue is with the US legal system in general, and not with this particular situation. A lot of your issues are the same for any crime. It can be a real problem when the wrong person is charged. That's why the police and prosecutors work very hard to minimize that.

For serious crimes, the police, the prosecutor, and a grand jury all need to be convinced that there is probable cause to believe the person is guilty. If any of the three don't agree, the person won't be tried.

But you are correct in that our system isn't perfect. I don't know of any perfect legal systems.

 
TN Args said:
Brad Bohland said:
....I end up doing research, looking up articles, searching for photos, and if I find something of value I might share it on the thread....

When I looked for cheerleader photography I was surprised that some of it was as good as the sports pics I have in my favorites folder, so I shared a few for anyone who might be interested.

b569c2c211d640f68adcebe76043fbaf.jpg
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I would prefer that you give credit where it is due, please.
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It's not always available, and I would prefer it if the photographer would tag her pic so it's not on me.
 
So much random speculation and straw man arguments.

Come on 150!
 
open carry. google
open carry. google

edit: for you non westerners. "guns" can be a slang term for biceps. "gun control" is also a controversial topic in the USA about fire arms. Jokes are less funny when explained
 
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when is that article from? 1955?

or where..............Qatar? spelliing?
 
TN Args said:
Brev00 said:
We really do need to get a few women to join this website.
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Sure: then he would be hung, drawn and quartered here and now, just in case. That's your only possible motivation that I can think of, for making that suggestion.
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I have no idea what you mean. Who would be hung, drawn and quartered? If a woman is hanging, drawing, and quartering someone, why would she do that?

I am sometimes simply stunned by how others take my words, in this case, just 13 of them. I found it quite obvious that only men were responding with their thoughts to this situation. Certain of the responses seemed overtly sexist to me. Perhaps such remarks would have been left unstated if there were women participating in the conversation. I would appreciate hearing what women would say about this and would not expect any one opinion from a diverse group of women.

That was my motivation. I think this thread and this entire site would benefit from more female participation. There is likely nothing we can do about it but this thread does not help in my opinion.
 
think he was the one photographing the cheerleaders? Perhaps photoshopping them?
 
While he could well have his case thrown out of court or win on appeal, I think it is telling that he was arrested in a town near Dollywood in eastern Tennessee. High percentage of very conservative religious fundamentalists live there. Thus, it wouldn't surprise me if he is charged and, if so, that a jury would convict him.
 
MichaelKJ said:
While he could well have his case thrown out of court or win on appeal,
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More likely the prosecutor will reduce charges to some nondescript public nuissane misdemeanor and it will all go away. "Everybody wins". Prosecutor gets conviction, law enforcement pat themselves on back for a job well done, "photographer" breathes a sigh of relief avoiding more significant charges, and community feels "safe" because they were protected. It is comical in these small towns........if media outlets wanted to leave the enclaves they report from they would be shocked
MichaelKJ said:
I think it is telling that he was arrested in a town near Dollywood in eastern Tennessee. High percentage of very conservative religious fundamentalists live there. Thus, it wouldn't surprise me if he is charged
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Would surprise me
MichaelKJ said:
and, if so, that a jury would convict him.
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This wouldn't
 
Michael Fryd said:
Many people incorrectly assume that if the minor is clothed, in public, and engaged in a perfectly legal activity, then any photos can't be child porn.
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That depends on state law.

The federal law says that, at worst, it was a privacy violation, and in order for that to have occurred there has to be nudity or an undergarment.
 
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golfhov said:
So much random speculation and straw man arguments.

Come on 150!
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As the author of this Part II, I feel that there was a legitimate purpose in furthering discussion of the original point of this topic. The fact that several people who posted here indicated that they have rethought their positions/opinions on some of the issues surrounding the core question makes me think that this was worthwhile. I will readily admit that it has become somewhat useless now with the pointless postings of the cheerleader photos and the total veering off track with the "alternative facts" creation of facts regarding what happened and the senseless attacks on the motivation of the police and the disparagement of the community. But then again, you cannot expect to have a serious discussion on a public forum and not have input from those who have no meaningful contribution to make to that discussion.
 
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