Does no one still use AI and AIS lenses?

To my suggestion, member paulski66 was kind enough to start a poll:

"Are you still using Nikkor AI/AIS lenses?"

link:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/59418273

Captain Hook said:

Doug Greenberg said:

...

But I guess it's only me who still uses these non-CPU lenses.

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Please don't cry.

Your are not alone!

I still use these guys (or girls?) on my D800E:

200mm + 105mm + 135mm A(i)-S.

Great material. High quality. Exceptional value for money.

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Jes these are mint con-dish. ;-) Nice glass!

smithim said:

labalaba said:

smithim said:

Now that Nikon has decided to update the D100/200/300 line after all, with the D500, the D7xxx line is no longer the 'flagship' DX model, and henceforth will be designed more like successors to the D90 line. The D7xxx line, as we had come to know it, is gone.

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The main reason that people seem to be upset is that the D7000-D7200 range had this capability. As you say, if we regard these as outliers, simply due to Nikon not having a D300s replacement ready, then AI/AIS capability would apparently belong to the pro models.

However, the D750 isn't a pro model, buthas AI/AIS indexing - so on this basis we'd expect its replacement to lose the facility as well.

It simply seems unreasonable to me that any Nikon body over £1k should be missing this facility.

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I'm just explaining, not defending. I like Ais compatibility also, I have a number of those lenses.

Midwest said:

Doug Greenberg said:

Nikon has supposedly prided itself on the fact that almost all lenses produced over the pasty fifty years or more are still usable on modern camera bodies. This in contrast with Canon, which rendered all of its older lenses obsolete when it introduced the EF lens mount in 1987.

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Wow, half the people on this forum were not even born when Canon took that step, which in retrospect left them in a good position today.

Contemporary relevance is limited. Like saying 'In 1968 Chevrolet changed the Powerglide transmission in such a way that you could no longer push start the car, which you could previously.'

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Well, good point, but it's one of those "you had to be there" things. Nikon has felt pressure all along regarding this issue of trying to cram features into the original mount vs. doing what Canon did. People felt strongly then--as now--that protecting the usability of older lenses was an important thing. There was lots of discussion by Nikon pundits and in user forums about whether the mount issue would ultimately be Nikon 's Achilles hell.

Actually, however, Nikon ended up being able to accomplish the engineering feat of including multiple functions, including VR, within the structure of the original mount. If, in fact, they decided now or years from now to start over again, I wonder what the tipping point issue/function would be?

Doug Greenberg, Berkeley, CA

Are you sure about D7500 losing the non-CPU metering? I have now read elsewhere that Ai/Ais lenses are supported in M mode only. So long as that does not mean stop-down metering, that's no problem, I usually shoot in M mode with Auto-ISO anyway.

That very much chimes with my experience. I moved from an FM2n, FM2, FE2 to a D200 when it came out as it was capable of using AI lenses. I've still got them all (except a real dog I traded in) but they are little used. There is a mythology around these lenses that they are fantastic lenses but they are not and AF is a huge boon, even if like me you choose a focus point and use the back button most of the time. VR works and works well. My 60mm Micro is better than my 55mm 2.8 AIS was, my 35-70 2.8 AF-D is better than my 35mm 2.8 AI. There are one or two that stand out. Your 75-150 series E, my 200 f2.8 AI are really good lenses. My 24mm 2.8 is OK, but modern lenses are better.

However I do resent Nikon's inability to maintain backward compatibility as new lenses and bodies appear. The AF-P and AF-E at least seem to have traded compatibility to get more features, the D7500 simply seems cheese paring. Nikon needs to rationalise the D3X00 ,5X00 and 7X00 ranges. With the D500 it probably doesn't need all four DX series and it needs to fit DX mirrorless in somewhere too. It probably needs this plus D4X00 and D6X00 and the D500.

labalaba said:

Are you sure about D7500 losing the non-CPU metering? I have now read elsewhere that Ai/Ais lenses are supported in M mode only. So long as that does not mean stop-down metering, that's no problem, I usually shoot in M mode with Auto-ISO anyway.

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If there's no index link on the lens, to tell the camera what aperture the lens is actually set to, then surely the only way that it can work is to stop the lens down....

I would only have an issue when I use the Nikon PB6 bellows, which is primarily for slide duping straight on to an FX body using the 60mm macro D.

Maybe as many as 98% buying at this specification point do not have bellows or old lenses, and might not even have heard of them or know that they exist.

For the likely target marking removing this feature is irrelevant.

Those who want decades of backward compatibility are likely to know this body is not for them, just as the D3400 is not ideal for those with screwdriver AF lenses.

I do not "understand" why so many posters are reluctant to accept this camera is good for maybe 98% of photographers and not good for maybe the 2% of photographers who use what can be fairly described as specialist "old technology" lenses and accessories that have not seen development for around 30 years.

I guess we have to go through all the reasons yet again. First, this model is purported to be an "upgrade" from the previous one, yet it removes features that have become justifiably associated with higher-level cameras. This has every appearance of marketing/bean counter-inspired pettiy crippling aimed at protecting sales of the D500. Significantly (to me, anyway), the D7500 still includes frilly features like "facial recognition," which I truly believe we all could do without. Forgive us for questioning NIkon's priorities.

Second, Nikon has LONG purported to distinguish itself by the fact that it has maintained the same basic mount since 1959, which allows the use of legacy lenses even on the newest models. Over the years, debate has erupted on more than one occasion within Nikon forums regarding whether Nikon would have been (would still be?) better off emulating Canon, which made a radical, total shift in its mount structure in 1987. I think most of us agree that if it were truly necessary to terminate the F mount in order to accommodate highly beneficial new features, we would understand. But so far, this has not been the case. In fact, Nikon acknowledged the extensiveness of customer attachment to legacy lenses and photographic tradition generally when it came out with the Df camera. That model is a bit long of tooth already, but hey, it has only been three and a half years.

There are, in fact, still many, MANY AI/AIS lenses out there and millions of users of those lenses. The notion that these lenses are so old and marginal that dropping support for them is virtually meaningless is just plain wrong. Perhaps if we had this conversation in another twenty, even ten years, perceptions might change. But right now, the non-CPU setting option makes it totally reasonable for people to continue to use those older lenses. I think even for younger photographers, manual focusing is not generally considered rocket science.

Finally--once the initial shock of this gelding of the D7500 wore off, I came to realize that overall, Nikon does NOT seem to be abandoning support for legacy lenses. The AI indexing tab feature remains part of all other higher-level DSLR bodies, and I suspect it will continue to be included for quite a while to come. This realization, however, leads to the conclusion that removing the non-CPU lens support from the D7500 was, as I mentioned earlier, just a petty marketing decision. As such, I do not respect Nikon for this move.

Doug Greenberg, Berkeley, California

Hi, Doug:

As often as possible. This weekend, it is the Nikkor-O 35/2 which is no slouch. Use AFS lenses when needed but otherwise, pack a couple of the MF Nikkors.

I am not an old school MF lens user. It started when I stumbled across the MF Nikkor thread at FredMiranda (now up to 6K pages) and was amazed by the images produced with these lenses, on bodies ranging from the D40 to D810 & FF Sony.

Always look forward to using these lenses. Their build quality, looks & feel are superb. Have a few in pristine condition and have not been disappointed by their performance. They can easily be adapted on multiple platforms which is more than can be said for their AFS counterparts.

Not sure what Nikon's thinking is with the D7500. The company does continue to manufacture MF AIs lenses to this day and one would think they would like to sell a few. In addition, MF lenses are popular with the video crowd so it is puzzling that the D7500 marketed for its 4K video capabilities would be crippled in the use of these lenses. Hope it is not a trend.

Regards,

Serge

I have a D7100 and a D750, bought when I sold my D700. I never use my older MF lens on my DX, I prefer them on FX.

I have contemplated getting my 105 chipped, and now I suppose I will. It really is the sensible thing to do for a lens I really like.

How many do tou have? Get them chipped and your not at the mercy of Nikon for compatibility.

sandy b said:

I have a D7100 and a D750, bought when I sold my D700. I never use my older MF lens on my DX, I prefer them on FX.

I have contemplated getting my 105 chipped, and now I suppose I will. It really is the sensible thing to do for a lens I really like.

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Surely both of those cameras work properly with your lens, so why bother having it chipped? And if you prefer them on FX, which current FX body doesn't support non-cpu lenses?

Doug Greenberg said:

Maybe not that many of us still own and use AI and AIS lenses, but the context here is that Nikon has supposedly prided itself on the fact that almost all lenses produced over the pasty fifty years or more are still usable on modern camera bodies. This in contrast with Canon, which rendered all of its older lenses obsolete when it introduced the EF lens mount in 1987.

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What Nikon has done with the introduction of the D7500 doesn't compare to Canon abandoning their manual focus mount in 1987. You can still mount legacy Nikkors on a D7500.

As a loyal Canon SLR shooter since the late 60's I had acquired a large collection of FL/FD/FDn lenses and Canon orphaned them all when they introduced the auto-focus EF mount. I was so hurt I refused to embrace AF and then digital for almost 20 years. During that time Canon's action wasn't forgotten and was a significant factor in my decision to go with Nikon when I went digital in 2006.

I have since added some AI lenses that I use occasionally and now see my DX upgrade path ending with the D7200.

The big disruption in Nikon's legacy lens support is yet to come with the inevitable introduction of a mainstream mirrorless product line.

• John

Doug Greenberg said:

I guess we have to go through all the reasons yet again. First, this model is purported to be an "upgrade" from the previous one,

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Really? Purported by whom? The Nikon press release doesn't call it an upgrade. The DPR articles on the camera don't seem to either. It is just a new camera model.

Member said:

yet it removes features that have become justifiably associated with higher-level cameras.

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Nikon giveth and Nikon taketh away.

Is a camera that has had one or more features downgraded automatically not an upgrade regardless of how many features have been improved? I think if one wants to decide whether a specific camera constitutes an upgrade from another camera, one should look at the balance between improvements and diminishments.

Here's a partial list of each:

Diminishments

• Single card slot
• No Ai tab
• No battery grip contacts
• Removed NFC (NFC didn't work with Apple)
• Loss of ~3MP
• Loss of ~1/3 stop PDR below ISO 400
• 3 Dot Per Pixel LCD instead of 4 DPP
• Lower battery life rating (because of HD video?)

Improvements

• Faster processor -> better JPEG processing
• ~90 times as many metering pixels -> better tracking, better metering, better face detection, face detection in viewfinder shooting.
• Highlight weighted metering
• Group AF
• 33% faster stills framerate
• ~2.8 times buffer depth
• 4K video
• Expanded Lo ISO 50
• 1 stop higher max native ISO
• 4 stops higher max expanded ISO
• ~ 1/6 stop PDR improvement at ISO 400 and up
• ~ 1/3 stop better noise performance at ISO 25600
• slightly larger sensor (0.1mm taller)
• Digital IS for HD video
• Tilting LCD
• Touchscreen
• Quiet continuous drive mode
• Twice as many self-timer speeds
• improved, compatible battery
• Auto AF fine-tuning
• Flicker detection
• 4K timelapse
• Bluetooth / SnapBridge
• Improved weather sealing
• ~5% lighter
• Slightly smaller
• Better grip
• Better ISO button placement

I think most objective people would say that, on balance, this is an upgrade,. People who only shoot landscapes with old manual focus lenses in good light will probably disagree. IMO, those people are better off buying a D610. Simialrly, some sport shooters might not have seen a D800 as an upgrade over a D700.

Member said:

This has every appearance of marketing/bean counter-inspired pettiy crippling aimed at protecting sales of the D500.

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Sure. The removal of pro features was to clearly distinguish the enthusiast level D7x00 line from the prosumer D5x0 line. Before the introduction of the D500, there was no need to make such a distinction, and no place other than the D7x00 line to park pro features like dual slots, and battery grips.

IMO, the decision to remove the Ai tab was an error or inconsistency, in that it is more of an enthusiast feature than a pro feature.

Member said:

Significantly (to me, anyway), the D7500 still includes frilly features like "facial recognition," which I truly believe we all could do without.

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You can just turn that off. It also includes scene modes. You don't have to use them. It is perfectly reasonable to include both features on enthusiast cameras, which are, after all, consumer models.

Member said:

Forgive us for questioning NIkon's priorities.

Second, Nikon has LONG purported to distinguish itself by the fact that it has maintained the same basic mount since 1959, which allows the use of legacy lenses even on the newest models.

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No. Legacy lenses do not work on consumer DX models and haven't since the D40. Legacy lens compatabilitly has only been a feature of the top level DX line and FX bodies. The interegnum between the D300 and D500 produced an anomaly: the D7x00 lien was both a consumer line and the top DX line. As such, until the advent of the D500, the D7x00 line got pro features it otherwise would not have had.

Member said:

...

There are, in fact, still many, MANY AI/AIS lenses out there and millions of users of those lenses. The notion that these lenses are so old and marginal that dropping support for them is virtually meaningless is just plain wrong. Perhaps if we had this conversation in another twenty, even ten years, perceptions might change. But right now, the non-CPU setting option makes it totally reasonable for people to continue to use those older lenses. I think even for younger photographers, manual focusing is not generally considered rocket science.

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A lot of the Ai lenses that continue to be used are used in order to save money, They are rarely employed for improved IQ. This is part of the reason I think it is an error to remove the Ai tab. Requiring purchase of a $750 more expensive body to save money on lenses doesn't make a lot of sense.

Member said:

Finally--once the initial shock of this gelding of the D7500 wore off, I came to realize that overall, Nikon does NOT seem to be abandoning support for legacy lenses.

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They are leaving it right where it has always been: in the top DX camera, and in FX cameras.

Member said:

The AI indexing tab feature remains part of all other higher-level DSLR bodies, and I suspect it will continue to be included for quite a while to come.

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It will be interesting to see if the D610's replacement body retains it. If not, it might be a sign that its removal from the D7500 is more than a matter of model line differentiation,

Member said:

This realization, however, leads to the conclusion that removing the non-CPU lens support from the D7500 was, as I mentioned earlier, just a petty marketing decision. As such, I do not respect Nikon for this move.

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I don't understand why you call it "petty". Clear product line differentiation seems like good marketing to me. Remember that marketing is done for the advantage of the seller, not the buyer. I Just happen to think this one feature is misplaced on the wrong side of the line between the two models.

Agree with horses for courses as a general principle. However, this thread seems to be about those of us for whom the missing aperture feeler is a deal-breaker -- as it is for me.

I tried for a while a D3200 as a light walk-around camera. The missing screw-drive was not the problem. I have other bodies to drive AF lenses. The missing AF/ON button was not the problem. I programmed the AEL button to do focussing with AFS lenses. Rather, the inability to meter exposure and to use aperture priority auto-exposure with my excellent AI(S) lenses was the reason I gave it up. Spot metering the scene through the viewfinder is a technique I learned long time ago and find indispensable -- I set my function button to do spot metering. This trick will not work with AI lenses without aperture feeler.

But that will certainly obsolete old lens even more, and maybe new lens. Then let's see what everyone has to say.

Come to the dark side... Mirrorless. Every kind of metering, focus peaking, magnified live view, IBIS, 4K video, ... I use only AI and AIS primes and they haven't been this much fun to use ever before.

--
Mark

smithim said:

sandy b said:

I have a D7100 and a D750, bought when I sold my D700. I never use my older MF lens on my DX, I prefer them on FX.

I have contemplated getting my 105 chipped, and now I suppose I will. It really is the sensible thing to do for a lens I really like.

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Surely both of those cameras work properly with your lens, so why bother having it chipped? And if you prefer them on FX, which current FX body doesn't support non-cpu lenses?

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With more than one AI/AIS lens one has to remember to swap lens settings for every lens change if lenses are not chipped. Also the custom chips that I have installed in my AI/AIS lenses (with original Nikon contact blocks) provides the camera body with information about the exit pupil of the lens giving more accurate exposure.





--
Atigun valley, a place north in Alaska

sandy b said:

How many do you have? Get them chipped and your not at the mercy of Nikon for compatibility.

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Due to exposure errors, chipping is not really viable for most pre AI-s lenses. And given the fragility I've experienced with Dandelion chips, you're trading being at the mercy of Nikon for being at the mercy of that device.