Sigma SD9 vs Canon 10D - Does anyone have both?

T. Charlton

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I keep hearing people talk about the Sigma SD9 and wanted to know if there are compelling reasons to buy one over a 10D. I just don't want to kick myself a few weeks from now for not doing my homework. They seem to be about the same price so I thought I would see what the group has to say. Does anyone have both and care to share?
--
T. Charlton
 
They both have a lot of pluses and minuses along with all of the other cameras out.

The bottom line is the SD9 is super sharp and the 10D is super soft, so it depends on what you are looking for.

The subject has been done to death, so do a search with SD9 10D in the topic search line on all forums and you will get a lot of information.
I keep hearing people talk about the Sigma SD9 and wanted to know
if there are compelling reasons to buy one over a 10D. I just don't
want to kick myself a few weeks from now for not doing my homework.
They seem to be about the same price so I thought I would see what
the group has to say. Does anyone have both and care to share?
--
T. Charlton
 
I didn't mean to beat a dead horse and I did do a search and read some. I see there is a beeter thread with Shutter who seems to be doing exactly what I wanted to see. A real world comparision between the SD9 and the 10D.
I keep hearing people talk about the Sigma SD9 and wanted to know
if there are compelling reasons to buy one over a 10D. I just don't
want to kick myself a few weeks from now for not doing my homework.
They seem to be about the same price so I thought I would see what
the group has to say. Does anyone have both and care to share?
--
T. Charlton
--
T. Charlton
 
Hi T,

Give me a few days and I'll try to do some more deliberate comparisons and share some impressions. Just not quite ready yet.

Thanks,

Jim
I keep hearing people talk about the Sigma SD9 and wanted to know
if there are compelling reasons to buy one over a 10D. I just don't
want to kick myself a few weeks from now for not doing my homework.
They seem to be about the same price so I thought I would see what
the group has to say. Does anyone have both and care to share?
--
T. Charlton
--
T. Charlton
--
Jim Fuglestad

Skill in photography is acquired by practice and not by purchase. -Percy W. Harris
Our existence is determined by the truths we tell.
Why simply live and let live? Live and help live.
http://www.pbase.com/jfuglestad/galleries
 
THANK YOU!!! I have been wanting to see this by someone who really knows what they are doing. Both cameras are amazing in their own right but so different that it makes it hard to decide which way to go. I love the realistic photo of the boys face. I will look forward to that review.

Mr. T
Give me a few days and I'll try to do some more deliberate
comparisons and share some impressions. Just not quite ready yet.

Thanks,

Jim
I keep hearing people talk about the Sigma SD9 and wanted to know
if there are compelling reasons to buy one over a 10D. I just don't
want to kick myself a few weeks from now for not doing my homework.
They seem to be about the same price so I thought I would see what
the group has to say. Does anyone have both and care to share?
--
T. Charlton
--
T. Charlton
--
Jim Fuglestad
Skill in photography is acquired by practice and not by purchase.
-Percy W. Harris
Our existence is determined by the truths we tell.
Why simply live and let live? Live and help live.
http://www.pbase.com/jfuglestad/galleries
--
T. Charlton
 
Its really tough to compare the two since they are so different, but I have some time to kill so here goes. I have used the 10D for about 4 months and used a SD9 for about 3 weeks.

These are just general observations and dont get into super specifics like flash sync etc. Also take them with a grain of salt. These are good points and bad points as they affected me.

I would say generally

10D pluses
The 10D body is built better. Sturdier.

The 10D has a super battery good for about 500 shots. I have never run one down. The SD9 has a two battery system, but its not really a problem.
There are a lot more lenses available for the 10D including a few with IS.

The 10D has very useable high isos. 800 is about like the SD9 200 as far as noise, but you can underexpose the SD9 quite a bit and pull it up in processing so its almost like a higher iso.
Low noise.
Colors are good.
Its got jpeg if you ever want to take a few snapshots without the raw hassles.
Its got a mirror lock up
It can meter through a manual lens

Ir sensitive if you are into that, but the IR sensitivity is not as good as a Sony 717.

10D minuses,

Its slowwwww on startup and wakeup, about 2 sec. This was a real pisser for me. I felt like I was shooting my E20 again, that by the way took sharper pictures. (My 717 is super fast start and wakeup and blows my 10D away.)

Super super soft images. Too bad it does not have a removable AA filter. Detail that is lost can not be regained no matter how much you sharpen. My $640 sony 717 take pictures that carry almost as much detail as my 10D. I could not believe it !

Very sensitive to blowouts and over exposed skys. This camera definatly needs more dynamic range. You really have to use grad nd filters or use a polarizer and watch the histogram very carefully to get a good outdoor exposure on a bright day.
(those are the 10D big ones that are killing me)

There seem to be some quality control issues with focus and exposure, but my camera focuses right on.

L lenses cost a small fortune. Major bucks. Maybe like 3-4g or more to shoot from 16mm - 500mm.

Raw software is just okay, so plan on spending another $100 on capture one. Also while I am thinking about it I have not had very good luck sharpening 10D images without producing sharpen halos, so you need to invest in a sharpen program like nik (expensive) or develope a good routine yourself. Mind you 10D images are okay out of the camera for small prints
No spot meter (what were they thinking)

SD9 pluses

Number one has to be super super sharp images. I would say in enlargement terms comapred to a bayer sensor with a AA filter its equal to about a 8 or 9mp sensor, but not up to the 1ds. I have done big crop enlargements and the detail carries very well if you can get past the stair stepping. Unless you want to spend $5000-7000 on a camera body you are not going to find a sharper dslr body. You will never have to use USM on these files, unless they are out of focus.

Great raw converter. One of the best. Funny it is very similar to capture one pro.
Its fast all around. A lot faster than the 10D.
Nice body with simple menus.
I found the focus to be acceptable.

Cheaper lenses. You can buy a 50-500 and a 15-30, (both great) and you have just almost covered the entire shooting range I mentioned above (if you can handle the 50-500 weight. its big)
Its got a mirror lock up
It can meter through a manual lens, kindof ?

SD9 minuses
Low iso, but like I said above shoot -ev........

Noisy camera, but personally I would rather have the noise and more detail. Beside you will never see it in a small print.

Halos around reflections. This was the one that really got me and some cameras seem to be worse than others. Mine made blue halos, others make gray halos. Who knows what causes that. It seems like they should be albe to fix this with software.

This camera like the 10D is also very sensitive to blowouts and over exposed skys and light areas. This camera definatly needs more head room. It is about the same as the 10D. You have to spot meter the lightest area and lock then bring up the dark areas in photo pro. Also a Grad nd or polarizer helps too on bright days.
(those are the big ones for the SD9)
Not really a minus but you have to use EX lenses.

Colors are slightly flat, but thats not a big deal and is easy to correct with photo pro.

1.7x crop is a killer if you like super WA like me, but I dont even like a 1.5x crop. For telephoto work its great.

No jpeg, but that did not bother me since I have a 5mp P&S and I shoot my dslrs in raw all the time any way.
Not IR sensitive.
No flash (not a biggie)

Also there are a lot more pluses and minuses for both the 10D and SD9. Scour Steves, image review and DP for the reviews. I usually read every review pros and cons I can get my hands on. As far as which camera to buy, thats a good question. Honestly both cameras have their merits.

The 10D in low light on iso 800 and a 28-135IS lens is great and you can shoot down to 1/15 hand held and still get a good picture. My main complaint is the images are so soft you really have to work them hard. They are just plain fuzzy, but you would never get anyone from the canon forum to admit it.

The SD9 is not so great in low light, but when the light is good the sharpness excels every camera out except for the 14n and the 1ds. Some of the SD9 test portraits are awsome.

Personally I would like to have them both. Its just to bad the SD9 does not make a canon mount camera.

See if you can get your hands on both of them and try them out. With about 20-30 picture each. You can download photo pro for the SD9 and capture one has a 30 day trial period.

I hope this helps.
 
You will probably be happy with either. A telling tale is that no one that I know of has bought an SD9 and then switched to Canon (or Nikon or Fuji). But we have probably 6 - 12 on this forum that have gone the other way. And have generally felt theirs was a wise choice after shooting both. However, our camera is not for the faint-of-heart as the astounding images have caused heart-fluttering to several and heart-failure to another (although this is a third source unconfirmed rumor).

Rick
--

.......Feel The Power.........Sigma.....SD9..........

http://www.lightreflection.com
http://www.silveroaksranch.com
http://www.pbase.com/rickdecker
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9/user_home
 
10D isn't sharp? That's news to alot of people. Research the sharpness issues and you'll see why the camera was designed that way. There is no problem getting tack sharp photos.
I keep hearing people talk about the Sigma SD9 and wanted to know
if there are compelling reasons to buy one over a 10D. I just don't
want to kick myself a few weeks from now for not doing my homework.
They seem to be about the same price so I thought I would see what
the group has to say. Does anyone have both and care to share?
--
T. Charlton
 
T, I am doing the same homework as you do. In fact, I have done a little research including asking friends who own 10Ds or SD9 to send the images they shot to me.

Well, I believe what I saw. SD9 is razor sharp! Details is superb. Thats number one criteria on my list. Since I am doing lots of studio setup kind of shot, the so called shortcommings aren't really big problems. Like "limited" ISOs and poor perfomance on low light.

I own two EOS cameras including an EOS/1V and few lenses. Realizing my choice would force me to invest extra on the lenses had me rethinking about my decision but I have to admit SD9 is like 70 and 10D is 30 now.

You can download the sample images from both sides and let your eyes be the judge. If you want to see other samples feel free to email me.

SD9 = http://www.sigmaphoto.com/html/Cameras_sd9_dpr.htm
= http://www.sd9.org

10D = http://www.canon.co.jp/Imaging/EOS10D

Cheers!
  • steve -
http://www.stevechong.com
 
Dear live,

I have no experience with the Canon 10D, and I am uninterested in initiating any flame wars on comparative sharpness. Your posting record shows that you are interested in seeing data. I am currently conducting a set of resolution tests with the SD9. I have been using the SD9 with a microscope, and with some of the best optics available. In one of the tests, I used an ideal specimen, a diatom frustule, under excellent (arguably ideal) conditions. As an experienced microscopist, I can assure you that the SD9 has exceeded my expectations, and outperformed what I had been able to produce with this object on fine grain T-max film, under identical conditions of exposure and magnification.

One of my resolution test images is located at the URL below:

http://www.pbase.com/image/20556998

The image is best viewed at its original size. The presented image has not been processed beyond manipulations of saturation, contrast and brightness. The image has not been sharpened in any way.

Steve

http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9/steve_wolniak

- - -
10D isn't sharp? That's news to alot of people. Research the
sharpness issues and you'll see why the camera was designed that
way. There is no problem getting tack sharp photos.
 
My $640 sony 717 take pictures that carry almost as
much detail as my 10D. I could not believe it !
I can't believe it either. My F717 images are not anywhere near the same ballpark as my SD-9.
Number one has to be super super sharp images. I would say in
enlargement terms comapred to a bayer sensor with a AA filter its
equal to about a 8 or 9mp sensor, but not up to the 1ds.
It depends. If you are talking B&W resolution then all the Bayer interpolations guesses are right and the 1Ds wins hands down. If you are talking color resolution, it takes 3 sensors (avg) to form a color pixel and accuracy is up for grabs, and artifacts are prevailant with the Bayer. In color the 1Ds has a much smaller edge, as it translates to a 3.67MP full color sensor vs the SD-9's 3.49MP.
See if you can get your hands on both of them and try them out.
With about 20-30 picture each. You can download photo pro for the
SD9 and capture one has a 30 day trial period.
I personally don't think 20-30 is enough SD-9 experience to form a valuable impression. The camera has some hidden quirks and an equal number of buried treasures.
 
http://sigmaphoto.com/Images/sd9samples/IMG05380.jpg
http://sigmaphoto.com/Images/sd9samples/IMG05228.jpg
https://secure1.canon.jp/Imaging/EOS10D/downloads/lobster.jpg

Safe to say that's roughly max sharpness available given an effectively unlimited budget. No comparison IMO.
I keep hearing people talk about the Sigma SD9 and wanted to know
if there are compelling reasons to buy one over a 10D. I just don't
want to kick myself a few weeks from now for not doing my homework.
They seem to be about the same price so I thought I would see what
the group has to say. Does anyone have both and care to share?
--
T. Charlton
 
I keep hearing people talk about the Sigma SD9 and wanted to know
if there are compelling reasons to buy one over a 10D. I just don't
want to kick myself a few weeks from now for not doing my homework.
They seem to be about the same price so I thought I would see what
the group has to say. Does anyone have both and care to share?
Don't have both but I think the decision is simple...

10D = much better images under medium to poor conditions
SD-9 = much better images under medium to exc conditions

...its that simple, you have to pick.
 
It depends. If you are talking B&W resolution then all the Bayer
interpolations guesses are right and the 1Ds wins hands down. If
you are talking color resolution, it takes 3 sensors (avg) to form
a color pixel and accuracy is up for grabs, and artifacts are
prevailant with the Bayer. In color the 1Ds has a much smaller
edge, as it translates to a 3.67MP full color sensor vs the SD-9's
3.49MP.
Not to start a pixel war, but according to the test res charts the 1DS can resolve a lot more lpi than the SD9, 1700 - 2000 lpi is looking prety strong, which translates into more detail. The SD9 is definatly better than a kodak 6mp pro camera or a 1dx, but not up to a 11mp 1ds. Thats is why I feel its around an 8-9mp equiv. For a $1000 3.5 mp camera it is really amazing. Gees you could buy 7 bodies for 1 1ds body. Could you imagine a 5-6mp foven chip, Wow. That would really shake things up. As far as color I dont care if its interpolated or not as long as it looks good in print. Also the SD9 portrait was closer so it should have a bit of an edge.

Really all this does not mean a whole lot unless you are doing big enlargements. The SD9 file was enlarged to the 1ds size with GF.

Check these images. I just noticed that it looks like these photos were taken on the same day. Hmmm.

SD9 - resized to 1ds res with GF, really amazing that this is a 3.5mp file. Blows me away.



1DS - Notice the finer detail and better clarity.


See if you can get your hands on both of them and try them out.
With about 20-30 picture each. You can download photo pro for the
SD9 and capture one has a 30 day trial period.
I personally don't think 20-30 is enough SD-9 experience to form a
valuable impression. The camera has some hidden quirks and an
equal number of buried treasures.
You are right there, but I dont think a camera store is going to let you rip off 200 shots. It would probably be best to rent each for a day of serious shooting.
 
Erik,

Oh...I did not realize that. I had left the diatom images at 0 and I had assumed that no sharpening had been added. I will not make that mistake again.

Steve
 
So Erik, when the software is set at 0 sharpen it actually is doing
some sharening to the image?
I'll quote from the SPP v1.1 release notes again:
10. The "Auto" and "Default" processing modes leave sharpness at the default "0" setting, but users have found that a much better general-purpose result is obtained by adding more sharpening, so in v1.1 the "0" has been redefined. To avoid adding much noise due to extra sharpening, the sharpening algorithm has been improved. The default sharpness is now approximately equivalent to Photoshop's "unsharp mask" filter with radius 1, amount 100%, and a small threshold, applied to luminance channel only (the previous default in v1.0 was approximately like 50% and zero threshold). Sharpness settings below -1 blur the image.
Given that below -1 blurs, I'm making the assumption that -1 means no sharpening. Note that Phil's SD9 samples (using v1.0) used settings of +0.3 to +1.0, so they are probably pretty close to the new v1.1 default.

--
Erik
 
Oh...I did not realize that. I had left the diatom images at 0 and
I had assumed that no sharpening had been added. I will not make
that mistake again.
If you'd said "no additional sharpening" or "default sharpening" I would not have quibbled. Advocating that the SD9 + SPP makes getting the right amount of sharpening very easy is a still a strong advantage.

Probably one of the biggest problens with the 10D/D100 class of cameras is the almost voodoo like rituals needed to apply the "right" amount of sharpening (e.g., set the camera this way, process RAW with this tool and these parameters, then open in Photoshop and use this plugin with these other parameters, except for when it's a blue moon ...). Y'all need to adopt the old Mac slogan of "it just works."

--
Erik
 
Erik,

I have no problems with your concern over proper word usage; precision in communication is a dying art. I had made an assumption about SPP 1.1 that was incorrect. The Pbase images and underlying text will be corrected shortly.

While you were responding to my message, I was comparing the diatom image set at default sharpening (0.0) with an identical image set at no-apparently-added-sharpening (-1.0). As I compared the images side by side in the mac program Image Preview, they looked pretty much the same on a big flat screen monitor. I then began to enlarge them repeatedly, and an interesting difference appeared in the details of the images. The 0.0 image became pixelated and noisy at a lower enlargement factor than the -1.0 image (sorry for the odd grammar here). In other words, the default sharpening setting is affecting things that appear when the image is pushed to its limits. The limits are lower at the default setting of 0.0 than they are at -1.0. In retrospect, that is not surprising.

I will post the -1.0 image at Pbase, next to the 0.0 original. The explanations beneath each image will point out the differences.

Steve
 

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