Shooting in monochrome vs. making it B/W in SW

One important difference is that when shooting B/W with a camera, you see the image in the viewfinder in B/W, which can be very helpful. The best way is to shoot jpeg+raw. That way you have a B/W photo as made by the camera, and a colour RAW for any further post-processing.
I have to say that this is one of my favorite things about shooting with an EVF. Seeing the world in black & white at the time of capture makes you rethink your composition. I will shoot RAW+JPEG and if I like the JPEG then great. If not, then I will play around with the RAW in Nik Silver Efex Pro.

Sean
 
As I mentioned in my PM, I was able to dredge up the original ORF file from this image as well as the OOC .jpg and of course the final tweaked .jpg which I posted.

I have sent all three of these to you for your review and so that you may try your hand at duplicating the OOC .jpg as shot with the Pen F using Mono Profile2 and Film Grain off.

I hope you can come up with the "recipe"......

Sincerely,

Gary
 
One important difference is that when shooting B/W with a camera, you see the image in the viewfinder in B/W, which can be very helpful. The best way is to shoot jpeg+raw. That way you have a B/W photo as made by the camera, and a colour RAW for any further post-processing.
My camera Viewfinder can be set to Monochrome and shoot in color.
 
But the PEN F produce at the moment best monotone photos you can get out of the camera. Winning Fuji and even Leica. And to reproduce the Olympus styles is very difficult or nearly impossible as they have something totally own kind magic happening in the body that many has tried to re-do from the raw file in post process. So even if you have all the post processing capabilities, somethings are just too difficult or impossible.
I don't know about that.
And after all, PEN F was designed exactly to the photography on the site, not while sitting on computer for hour or two to tweak one photo.
If it takes you 1-2 hrs to tweak a single photo to get a similar result to the PEN-F's monochrome then you're doing something very, very wrong. I actually tried doing that several months ago and found that I could get extremely close to a PEN-F's result in about 5-10 minutes for my first attempt using the Silver Efex plugin (free) with Lightroom.
First of all, when you are doing art gallery you don't spend 5-10min to process one photo.

Secondly, when you are doing art, you don't have a sample to what you want to turn your photo.

Thirdly, your attempt is close, but not the same and not as good looking. Maybe if you would have put a hour more you would get there, instead rushing out.
The magic is that you stand on the site and you just scroll few knobs and dials, adjust some curves, choose color filtering and you see how all that changes the photo on the site.
Personally, I prefer to do that later on. When I'm shooting, I find it enough to concentrate on focus, composition, and the right exposure. I like having the flexibility of adjusting contrast, tonal curves and colour sensitivity afterwards, when I have more time.
That is the key, you are faster and more efficient on the site when you see what you get and you just see what you get. So it is win-win situation to use EVF with live filter. You spend less time when you see the photo in B/W with contrast, tonal curves instead color and no requirement to imagine how it would work nor time to spend in front of computer "What did I see in this?".

And when you anyways can't reproduce the work you get in camera (as in your example) then you can always just shoot JPEG+raw and twiddle the raw as much you want if you are not happy at all to the JPEG.
But how many would want to go through all their photographs with a new style?
It's not a matter of going through *all* my old photos with a new style. I've got back to *some* older ones when it occurs to me that a new technique or technology would improve it.
So why to shoot ALL with raw, when you just want *some* to be re-tweaked?

JPEG and image editors in last few years has allowed far more JPEG editing latitude than previously was possible even with the raw. That is the thing that has changed a radically. And the reasons to shoot raw is less and less there if you just can get the shot exposure nailed without clipping the main details.

The idea "I do it in the post then" is same as DSLR shooters who need to chimp the screen after each new shot that did they get it. And then spend more time in most shots front of computer than shooting more keepers as they can't see it right away does photo work or not.
 
And after all, PEN F was designed exactly to the photography on the site, not while sitting on computer for hour or two to tweak one photo.
If it takes you 1-2 hrs to tweak a single photo to get a similar result to the PEN-F's monochrome then you're doing something very, very wrong. I actually tried doing that several months ago and found that I could get extremely close to a PEN-F's result in about 5-10 minutes for my first attempt using the Silver Efex plugin (free) with Lightroom.
First of all, when you are doing art gallery you don't spend 5-10min to process one photo.
That's irrelevant. I'm making a comparison between the PEN-F results and getting similar output in post.
Secondly, when you are doing art, you don't have a sample to what you want to turn your photo.

Thirdly, your attempt is close, but not the same and not as good looking. Maybe if you would have put a hour more you would get there, instead rushing out.
You're grasping at straws, now. It's close enough that if I made a dozen PEN-F-like monochrome images vs the PEN-F originals, you wouldn't be able to tell which is which. In fact, if you think you're so good at identifying PEN-F mono images, we could solicit raw and jpeg samples from PEN-F users and set up a test for you. And I guarantee I wouldn't have to spend an hour on each one.
The magic is that you stand on the site and you just scroll few knobs and dials, adjust some curves, choose color filtering and you see how all that changes the photo on the site.
Personally, I prefer to do that later on. When I'm shooting, I find it enough to concentrate on focus, composition, and the right exposure. I like having the flexibility of adjusting contrast, tonal curves and colour sensitivity afterwards, when I have more time.
That is the key, you are faster and more efficient on the site when you see what you get and you just see what you get. So it is win-win situation to use EVF with live filter. You spend less time when you see the photo in B/W with contrast, tonal curves instead color and no requirement to imagine how it would work nor time to spend in front of computer "What did I see in this?".
The flipside to that is that you are using time you could be shooting on site to make those adjustments when you could just as easily deal with them later. As for not knowing, later on, what you saw in the scene, that's unlikely unless you've got a terrible memory. Thousands if not millions of photographers have worked on their images in the darkroom days, if not weeks or months, after shooting the image, and haven't turned out great results.
And when you anyways can't reproduce the work you get in camera (as in your example) then you can always just shoot JPEG+raw and twiddle the raw as much you want if you are not happy at all to the JPEG.
But how many would want to go through all their photographs with a new style?
It's not a matter of going through *all* my old photos with a new style. I've got back to *some* older ones when it occurs to me that a new technique or technology would improve it.
So why to shoot ALL with raw, when you just want *some* to be re-tweaked?
Because it's easy, and it gives me more options.
JPEG and image editors in last few years has allowed far more JPEG editing latitude than previously was possible even with the raw. That is the thing that has changed a radically.
How have JPEG editors expanded their latitude? JPEG files are still limited to 8-bit depth.
And the reasons to shoot raw is less and less there if you just can get the shot exposure nailed without clipping the main details.
We're talking about monochrome conversion here. Having a full colour raw file lets me do the b&w conversion at my leisure.
The idea "I do it in the post then" is same as DSLR shooters who need to chimp the screen after each new shot that did they get it.
Actually, the process you describe in using the PEN-F sounds more like someone who is chimping the screen while they're on site.
And then spend more time in most shots front of computer than shooting more keepers as they can't see it right away does photo work or not.
Again, what you're saying doesn't make sense. I don't spend any time adjusting colour sensitivity, grain, or tonal curves when I'm out shooting. I spend my time shooting. For stuff that I can do in post, with more control, I leave for later.
 
One welcome addition that I spotted on darktable (free raw processor, I run it on Linux, possibly your raw processor has something similar) is the "passthrough" option for demosaicing which I guess stops considering the layout of the sensor, so for any pic captured in raw you get to transform to monochrome and gain a bit of resolution. Try pixel peeping, it works.
 
JPEG and image editors in last few years has allowed far more JPEG editing latitude than previously was possible even with the raw. That is the thing that has changed a radically.
What changes in "JPEG and image editors" in recent years has increased JPEG editing "latitude" to exceed what was previously possible with editing at the raw stage? Which of those changes only apply at the JPEG editing level such that raws don't also benefit from the change and maintain their greater editing latitude?
And the reasons to shoot raw is less and less there if you just can get the shot exposure nailed without clipping the main details.
Why would any serious B&W photographer (with the exception of street photographers going for a Daido Moriyama look) intentionally sacrifice dynamic range and tonality by shooting JPEG only when conditions and equipment allow for raw shooting?
 
One welcome addition that I spotted on darktable (free raw processor, I run it on Linux, possibly your raw processor has something similar) is the "passthrough" option for demosaicing which I guess stops considering the layout of the sensor, so for any pic captured in raw you get to transform to monochrome and gain a bit of resolution. Try pixel peeping, it works.
This method is designed to be used for real monochrome sensors without CFA (e.g. Leica Monochrome). In case of Bayer sensor or X-Trans you will still see the CFA pattern as a structure.
 
Thanks for all advice. I never imagined so much could lie behind a simple issue like this.
Especially the point about seeing B/W in the viewfinder struck me as important.

One thing I thought could come up, was that the camera itself optimizes the sensor for B/W in a way that post-processing could not compensate. I.e. that shooting in monochrome would capture the Raw data differently (in a way that was best for B/W).
 
Thanks for all advice. I never imagined so much could lie behind a simple issue like this.
Especially the point about seeing B/W in the viewfinder struck me as important.

One thing I thought could come up, was that the camera itself optimizes the sensor for B/W in a way that post-processing could not compensate. I.e. that shooting in monochrome would capture the Raw data differently (in a way that was best for B/W).
I don't know about that. As far as I know, raw is raw. Maybe the camera's metering system might underexpose a bit if it knows you're using a very contrasty B&W setting, to avoid blown highlights, but aside from that, I don't think there'd be much difference. This is all supposition, though.
 
Thanks for all advice. I never imagined so much could lie behind a simple issue like this.
Especially the point about seeing B/W in the viewfinder struck me as important.

One thing I thought could come up, was that the camera itself optimizes the sensor for B/W in a way that post-processing could not compensate. I.e. that shooting in monochrome would capture the Raw data differently (in a way that was best for B/W).
I don't know about that. As far as I know, raw is raw. Maybe the camera's metering system might underexpose a bit if it knows you're using a very contrasty B&W setting, to avoid blown highlights, but aside from that, I don't think there'd be much difference. This is all supposition, though.
Isn't that just how it works? The metering system uses the jpeg output to calculate exposure?
 
I could use some help. I have an E-M1 mk.II. I have set the file to record RAW and jpg. I then selected monochrome, so I can see the scene in B&W in the EVF but still should get a color RAW file. But both files are B&W. Can anyone explain what is going on? I have opened the files in both FastStone and Olympus Workspace, and get the same results.

Thanks

John
 
I could use some help. I have an E-M1 mk.II. I have set the file to record RAW and jpg. I then selected monochrome, so I can see the scene in B&W in the EVF but still should get a color RAW file. But both files are B&W. Can anyone explain what is going on? I have opened the files in both FastStone and Olympus Workspace, and get the same results.

Thanks

John
Presumably both those softwares are showing you the embedded jpg preview. I think that's what happens also in Lightroom, if I remember correctly. Can you not modify the settings after you have opened the image properly so that it shows the original colour?
 
I could use some help. I have an E-M1 mk.II. I have set the file to record RAW and jpg. I then selected monochrome, so I can see the scene in B&W in the EVF but still should get a color RAW file. But both files are B&W. Can anyone explain what is going on? I have opened the files in both FastStone and Olympus Workspace, and get the same results.

Thanks

John
RAW is RAW.... Color.

Shooting bw jpeg w/raw records a bw jpeg with a color raw.
 
I could use some help. I have an E-M1 mk.II. I have set the file to record RAW and jpg. I then selected monochrome, so I can see the scene in B&W in the EVF but still should get a color RAW file. But both files are B&W. Can anyone explain what is going on? I have opened the files in both FastStone and Olympus Workspace, and get the same results.

Thanks

John
Presumably both those softwares are showing you the embedded jpg preview. I think that's what happens also in Lightroom, if I remember correctly. Can you not modify the settings after you have opened the image properly so that it shows the original colour?
In workspace, there is a toggle to turn off the "color profile". It sounds counterintuitive when you're shooting in bw, but monochrome is considered a color profile.
 
When the JPG and ORF files are in the same folder, Workspace defaults to using the JPG settings (B&W) when you look at the RAW (I suppose that's the embedded JPG speaking). If you move the ORF file to another folder, Workspace should default to a color view.
 

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