Interesting Article about mirrorless State and m43

Good article. I actually agree with most of what the author says. I think the sweet spot for portability and performance now really is aps-c. It's just a shame no company is doing it right. X-trans and lack of stabilization are two big blows against Fuji. Sony seems to be ignoring their aps-c emount lens portfolio, in addition to battery issues, ergonomic issues, overheating issues, UI issues, etc. Samsung's NX1 was actually great but they bit the dust. I'm not going to switch to Canon since I have no lenses. That really only leaves me picking between continually supporting MFT or going to a full frame Sony system. If prices keep going up, performance stagnates, and issues being left unresolved by Olympus/Panasonic I might consider switching.
Which was Thom's conclusion, if you notice. First choice for him was Sony A7 series, followed by µ4/3.

One issue that I feel he ignores is that while the µ4/3 low-light glass is bulky relative to the rest of the system, it does give you access to lower ISO and/or faster shutter speeds in the same light.

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Archer in Boulder
God loves the noise just as much as the signal.
 
Fake news.
Why? Just because you don't agree with him? Maybe he said something about your favorite camera format you didn't like (BTW he uses m43 gear)?
This man predicted Olympus was out of the camera business 5 times in the last 5 years.
He came REALLY close to being right.
For the wrong reasons, though. Olympus nearly exited because of the corruption scandal, not because of the state of their camera division.
 
Good article. I actually agree with most of what the author says. I think the sweet spot for portability and performance now really is aps-c. It's just a shame no company is doing it right. X-trans and lack of stabilization are two big blows against Fuji. Sony seems to be ignoring their aps-c emount lens portfolio, in addition to battery issues, ergonomic issues, overheating issues, UI issues, etc. Samsung's NX1 was actually great but they bit the dust. I'm not going to switch to Canon since I have no lenses. That really only leaves me picking between continually supporting MFT or going to a full frame Sony system. If prices keep going up, performance stagnates, and issues being left unresolved by Olympus/Panasonic I might consider switching.
Which was Thom's conclusion, if you notice. First choice for him was Sony A7 series, followed by µ4/3.
Neither of which he particularly likes, though, the former for its 'ugh, Sony' bodies, the latter for the sensor simply not being capable enough (ultimately limited by size) for his routine needs.

Hardly ringing endorsements.

And even lower ratings for Canon M, Fuji and Sony E, in order.
One issue that I feel he ignores is that while the µ4/3 low-light glass is bulky relative to the rest of the system, it does give you access to lower ISO and/or faster shutter speeds in the same light.
Probably ignores it because it make no difference to him routinely hitting the system's limits.
 
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Olympus EM5, EM5mk2 my toys.
http://www.dpreview.com/galleries/9412035244
past toys. k100d, k10d,k7,fz5,fz150,500uz,canon G9, Olympus xz1
Funny thing about that image is one camera has a sensor/film area that is 4 times the size of the other! Kind of makes you wonder if we are moving forward or not.
One is also mostly full of air while the other is full of technology allowing you to take pictures with AF, through a viewfinder loaded with info, at different ISOs with better results, with IS, with the ability to connect to devices, the ability to tweak colour and output on the fly...

I dunno, maybe we are moving backwards... oh... wait...
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Jonathan
Yes there is more tech in the Oly. I guess I'm just wanting a FF digital camera the size of the Pentax. I see no reason it couldn't be done, except they might not be able to add every wizzbang feature possible to it. Modern camera design isn't really about making something that is usable, but making something that when its spec list is put up against its competition has all the 'necessary' boxes checked. I wish manufacturers would worry more about how a camera does what it does than worry about its spec list.

--
Jonathan
 


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Olympus EM5, EM5mk2 my toys.
http://www.dpreview.com/galleries/9412035244
past toys. k100d, k10d,k7,fz5,fz150,500uz,canon G9, Olympus xz1
Funny thing about that image is one camera has a sensor/film area that is 4 times the size of the other! Kind of makes you wonder if we are moving forward or not.
One is also mostly full of air while the other is full of technology allowing you to take pictures with AF, through a viewfinder loaded with info, at different ISOs with better results, with IS, with the ability to connect to devices, the ability to tweak colour and output on the fly...

I dunno, maybe we are moving backwards... oh... wait...
--
Jonathan
Yes there is more tech in the Oly. I guess I'm just wanting a FF digital camera the size of the Pentax. I see no reason it couldn't be done, except they might not be able to add every wizzbang feature possible to it. Modern camera design isn't really about making something that is usable, but making something that when its spec list is put up against its competition has all the 'necessary' boxes checked. I wish manufacturers would worry more about how a camera does what it does than worry about its spec list.
Would be nice. But even Leica can't do it. I do use a lot of those bells and whistles though.
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Jonathan
 


--
Olympus EM5, EM5mk2 my toys.
http://www.dpreview.com/galleries/9412035244
past toys. k100d, k10d,k7,fz5,fz150,500uz,canon G9, Olympus xz1
Funny thing about that image is one camera has a sensor/film area that is 4 times the size of the other! Kind of makes you wonder if we are moving forward or not.
One is also mostly full of air while the other is full of technology allowing you to take pictures with AF, through a viewfinder loaded with info, at different ISOs with better results, with IS, with the ability to connect to devices, the ability to tweak colour and output on the fly...

I dunno, maybe we are moving backwards... oh... wait...
--
Jonathan
Yes there is more tech in the Oly. I guess I'm just wanting a FF digital camera the size of the Pentax. I see no reason it couldn't be done, except they might not be able to add every wizzbang feature possible to it. Modern camera design isn't really about making something that is usable, but making something that when its spec list is put up against its competition has all the 'necessary' boxes checked. I wish manufacturers would worry more about how a camera does what it does than worry about its spec list.
Would be nice. But even Leica can't do it. I do use a lot of those bells and whistles though.
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Jonathan
I was thinking about Leica cameras as I wrote that. I've never held a digital Leica, but they have to be the closest digital camera to the Pentax in the pic even though they aren't a SLR. Sadly beyond the reach of most mortals. I have often wondered why nobody has developed a digital M or screw mount camera besides Leica. Only attempt was the Epson RD1.

The more I think about the two cameras, the more I scratch my head. Mirrorless is supposed to make cameras smaller. The Pentax has a mirrorbox and much larger imaging area. Even the lens on the Pentax is about the same size as the one on the Oly and is actually faster. Just seems backwards from what you would expect.

The EM10 II actually is one of the m43 cameras I like. If only Oly had put a decent grip on it I'd be whipping out my CC right now.

I am probably in the minority, but I rarely use scene modes, could care less if my camera shoots 10 fps, rarely uses video, etc. etc. etc. Guess i'm just a dinosaur.

--
Jonathan
 


--
Olympus EM5, EM5mk2 my toys.
http://www.dpreview.com/galleries/9412035244
past toys. k100d, k10d,k7,fz5,fz150,500uz,canon G9, Olympus xz1
Funny thing about that image is one camera has a sensor/film area that is 4 times the size of the other! Kind of makes you wonder if we are moving forward or not.
One is also mostly full of air while the other is full of technology allowing you to take pictures with AF, through a viewfinder loaded with info, at different ISOs with better results, with IS, with the ability to connect to devices, the ability to tweak colour and output on the fly...

I dunno, maybe we are moving backwards... oh... wait...
--
Jonathan
Yes there is more tech in the Oly. I guess I'm just wanting a FF digital camera the size of the Pentax. I see no reason it couldn't be done, except they might not be able to add every wizzbang feature possible to it. Modern camera design isn't really about making something that is usable, but making something that when its spec list is put up against its competition has all the 'necessary' boxes checked. I wish manufacturers would worry more about how a camera does what it does than worry about its spec list.
Would be nice. But even Leica can't do it. I do use a lot of those bells and whistles though.
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Jonathan
I was thinking about Leica cameras as I wrote that. I've never held a digital Leica, but they have to be the closest digital camera to the Pentax in the pic even though they aren't a SLR. Sadly beyond the reach of most mortals. I have often wondered why nobody has developed a digital M or screw mount camera besides Leica. Only attempt was the Epson RD1.
I wouldn't mind an OM made to use OM lenses as a special release... I mean all the parts exist and they can use the body to guage the market.
The more I think about the two cameras, the more I scratch my head. Mirrorless is supposed to make cameras smaller. The Pentax has a mirrorbox and much larger imaging area. Even the lens on the Pentax is about the same size as the one on the Oly and is actually faster. Just seems backwards from what you would expect.
Well a simple cut-away shows these bodies are chock full of electronics, and most of the "features" just sit on the electronics taking up very little space. The rest seems to be there to make the product function.
The EM10 II actually is one of the m43 cameras I like. If only Oly had put a decent grip on it I'd be whipping out my CC right now.
Can you buy a few different grips?
I am probably in the minority, but I rarely use scene modes, could care less if my camera shoots 10 fps, rarely uses video, etc. etc. etc. Guess i'm just a dinosaur.
I don't often use the high frame rates, but some features I love are the ability to use black and white and colour, adjust the tone curve as I see fit, and I actually use the WiFi a lot when I travel to copy files to my phone while I rest from walking for a quick snapseed edit and I then email them to family.

I am actually just digging deeper into video... It is its own challenge and quite a lot of fun!
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Jonathan
 
This was sent to Thom who confronted me in a personal message regarding said Olympus issues. I sent this back. I hope it strikes a chord with more than just him. I see it so much here on Dpreview.

'In all fairness, you(Thom) know what your talking about. It's more a personality flaw that is your issue. Your ego wants to shine so bad it takes your intellect to places where it has to creep back very slowly from stepping on the bombs you laid.'
 


--
Olympus EM5, EM5mk2 my toys.
http://www.dpreview.com/galleries/9412035244
past toys. k100d, k10d,k7,fz5,fz150,500uz,canon G9, Olympus xz1
Funny thing about that image is one camera has a sensor/film area that is 4 times the size of the other! Kind of makes you wonder if we are moving forward or not.

--
Jonathan
funny thing also is the omd blows the FF film pentax away for image quality :-) moving forward has nothing to do with sensor size. maybe I should have added a super 8 video camera in the image :-)

cheers don

--
Olympus EM5, EM5mk2 my toys.
past toys. k100d, k10d,k7,fz5,fz150,500uz,canon G9, Olympus xz1
 


--
Olympus EM5, EM5mk2 my toys.
http://www.dpreview.com/galleries/9412035244
past toys. k100d, k10d,k7,fz5,fz150,500uz,canon G9, Olympus xz1
Funny thing about that image is one camera has a sensor/film area that is 4 times the size of the other! Kind of makes you wonder if we are moving forward or not.

--
Jonathan
funny thing also is the omd blows the FF film pentax away for image quality :-) moving forward has nothing to do with sensor size. maybe I should have added a super 8 video camera in the image :-)

cheers don

--
Olympus EM5, EM5mk2 my toys.
http://www.dpreview.com/galleries/9412035244
past toys. k100d, k10d,k7,fz5,fz150,500uz,canon G9, Olympus xz1
I was really referring to camera size. Camera with 4 times bigger sensor is same size. Seemed kind of ironic to me.

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Jonathan
 
It has no sensor at all, and the empty hole is two times bigger, crop factor 2, not 4. In height the crop is only 1.85.

Since it's just an empty box (you should actually be asking why the empty K1000 box is so much bigger) the only size to compare is the lens. And if you put the comparable 20/1.7 or 25/1.8 prime on the Oly, the Pentax arrangement will look twice the size. Surprise.

And the answer to the question I raised about the K1000 is human scale. I have extensive personal experience with the camera on the left in the photo, and my hands would be a touch smaller than average male, and the camera really needs to be a bit bigger for best handling as part of a lens system. The same no doubt applies to the ME.

Which exposes it for what it actually is: an exercise in miniaturization. From the company that proceeded to produce the 110 SLR a few years later. Not an optimal SLR by any means, and as such it deserves comparison with the GM5 with 20/1.7. A comparison that will not end well for the ME.

Exercises in miniaturization melt the hearts of many enthusiasts (hence photos like the above), but that still doesn't make them optimal for any purpose other than transport. That is why it is so wrong to criticize the pro system m43 bodies for not being the size of a GM5 or even an EM5; to make them such a size would be poor design.
 
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Exercises in miniaturization melt the hearts of many enthusiasts (hence photos like the above), but that still doesn't make them optimal for any purpose other than transport.
Well, not, according to the famous Olympus camera designer Maitani, who "studied hands from all over the world".



il_fullxfull.722562865_rl71.jpg
 
Exercises in miniaturization melt the hearts of many enthusiasts (hence photos like the above), but that still doesn't make them optimal for any purpose other than transport.
Well, not, according to the famous Olympus camera designer Maitani, who "studied hands from all over the world".

il_fullxfull.722562865_rl71.jpg
Yes I have seen that before and it has zero credence today. Look at the shape of it! Pure marketing BS and shameless exploitation of tech staff for sales, even though there is nothing unusual in that.

The point is that time has proven how wrong that statement is. Right for the day, and against the competition of the day....

Something like the Canon T90 in the 80's showed progress and exposed the old boxes as second-rate.

The harsh light of hindsight has not been kind to the oldies, even though the warm glow of retro appeal tries to smooth it over in the eyes of retro-lovers. In the end the OM-1/2/10 were exactly the same as the ME: exercises in miniaturization, and their appeal and sales success would have been heavily dependent on that factor.

An advertisement like the above would not be spent on for no reason. It is actually a sure indicator that there were complaints about the handling. That's how it works.
 
or a GX850 in the other systems when all I need 50% of the time is a small but equally capable system.
 
And now you will surely find some credible explanation why all those thousands and thousands of pros, using rangefinder Leicas (film and digital), together with designers of those Leicas, are stupid, because they haven't realised by now that they in fact need larger cameras with big grips.
 
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Exercises in miniaturization melt the hearts of many enthusiasts (hence photos like the above), but that still doesn't make them optimal for any purpose other than transport.
Well, not, according to the famous Olympus camera designer Maitani, who "studied hands from all over the world".

il_fullxfull.722562865_rl71.jpg
Yes I have seen that before and it has zero credence today. Look at the shape of it! Pure marketing BS and shameless exploitation of tech staff for sales, even though there is nothing unusual in that.

The point is that time has proven how wrong that statement is. Right for the day, and against the competition of the day....

Something like the Canon T90 in the 80's showed progress and exposed the old boxes as second-rate.
Yes! I had a T90 and basically all modern cameras can trace their design back to that camera. Fantastic camera that made all other cameras of the day look like a Model T compared to a modern car.

The OM-1 was just another bar of soap style camera. Sorry, but nothing revolutionary about the design at all.
The harsh light of hindsight has not been kind to the oldies, even though the warm glow of retro appeal tries to smooth it over in the eyes of retro-lovers. In the end the OM-1/2/10 were exactly the same as the ME: exercises in miniaturization, and their appeal and sales success would have been heavily dependent on that factor.

An advertisement like the above would not be spent on for no reason. It is actually a sure indicator that there were complaints about the handling. That's how it works.
--
Jonathan
 
And now you will surely find some credible explanation why all those thousands and thousands of pros, using rangefinder Leicas (film and digital), together with designers of those Leicas, are stupid, because they haven't realised by now that they in fact need larger cameras with big grips.
Those people used those cameras because of the rangefinder viewing system, not because the bodies were ergonomic.
 
And now you will surely find some credible explanation why all those thousands and thousands of pros, using rangefinder Leicas (film and digital), together with designers of those Leicas, are stupid, because they haven't realised by now that they in fact need larger cameras with big grips.
Those people used those cameras because of the rangefinder viewing system, not because the bodies were ergonomic.
You mean it is not possible to put a grip on a rangefinder camera? Why?
 
And now you will surely find some credible explanation why all those thousands and thousands of pros, using rangefinder Leicas (film and digital), together with designers of those Leicas, are stupid, because they haven't realised by now that they in fact need larger cameras with big grips.
Those people used those cameras because of the rangefinder viewing system, not because the bodies were ergonomic.
You mean it is not possible to put a grip on a rangefinder camera? Why?
Are you daring to suggest that Maitani was wrong in the Olympus advertising blurb of 1975?

LOLOLOLOLOL

How did you get that big smoking hole in your foot?
 
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Exercises in miniaturization melt the hearts of many enthusiasts (hence photos like the above), but that still doesn't make them optimal for any purpose other than transport. That is why it is so wrong to criticize the pro system m43 bodies for not being the size of a GM5 or even an EM5; to make them such a size would be poor design.
Agreed. Below a certain size you are just going to make the camera more difficult to use. I have a GM1 and love it, but I realize that there are a lot of compromises in the camera due to size. If I just want to have a camera with me when I am doing something that the purpose really isn't photography I am fine with that compromise.

Now going the other direction for dedicated photography or pro at work you want maximum usability and size is secondary. One of the points of the article that started this thread is that once you get to a certain size using m43 really doesn't make as much sense. If my camera and lens are going to be as big as a FF camera and cost as much or more you might as well use the camera with the larger sensor.
 

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