Confirmed by Rico Pfistinger - XT20 uses PDAF and Face Detect, the first for Fuji!

This morning I briefly chatted with Rico Pfirstinger, who tests all Fuji pre-production cameras and (used to) blog about them on Fujifumors site.

Rico confirmed to me XT20 PDAF+FD feature. He saw this feature in pre-production firmware and wasn't sure it was being made into the production model. He is glad it did.

Why Fuji did not highlight this breakthrough (for Fuji) feature in its literature/presentations? We can only speculate that Fuji does not want to capitalize XT2 sales and/or get XT2 owners upset that they are missing this monumental AF feature available on a camera half the price.

I told Rico that it appeared to me that Face Detect on XT20 in general appeared to be miles away faster than on XT2 in any mode. Rico said that it does not 'appear' , it is of course faster because again it uses PDAF, and on XT2 and previous cameras, FD only uses CDAF, so it is slower.

Rico did remind me that even on XT20, the above holds true only for photo. For video, you want to use FD, you are back to Contrast AF even on XT20. So no advantage for video AF.

Rico did not know whether the feature can be implemented in XT2/XPRO2.

Another interesting point Rico made: While X100f came out on the same day as XT20, X100f lacks FD+PDAF feature. Only XT20 does have it.

I shared my disappointment with Rico that in 99.99% of so called COMPARE XT2 AND XT20 blogs, reviews, previews, and youtube video, NO REVIEWER so far noticed this difference. So much for their testing. Hopefully dpreview editors if they read this post, will thoroughly test the feature when they review XT20.

I've read reviews of the X70 has PDAF? Is this the same?

Thanks

Absolutic said:

This morning I briefly chatted with Rico Pfirstinger, who tests all Fuji pre-production cameras and (used to) blog about them on Fujifumors site.

Rico confirmed to me XT20 PDAF+FD feature. He saw this feature in pre-production firmware and wasn't sure it was being made into the production model. He is glad it did.

Why Fuji did not highlight this breakthrough (for Fuji) feature in its literature/presentations? We can only speculate that Fuji does not want to capitalize XT2 sales and/or get XT2 owners upset that they are missing this monumental AF feature available on a camera half the price.

I told Rico that it appeared to me that Face Detect on XT20 in general appeared to be miles away faster than on XT2 in any mode. Rico said that it does not 'appear' , it is of course faster because again it uses PDAF, and on XT2 and previous cameras, FD only uses CDAF, so it is slower.

Rico did remind me that even on XT20, the above holds true only for photo. For video, you want to use FD, you are back to Contrast AF even on XT20. So no advantage for video AF.

Rico did not know whether the feature can be implemented in XT2/XPRO2.

Another interesting point Rico made: While X100f came out on the same day as XT20, X100f lacks FD+PDAF feature. Only XT20 does have it.

I shared my disappointment with Rico that in 99.99% of so called COMPARE XT2 AND XT20 blogs, reviews, previews, and youtube video, NO REVIEWER so far noticed this difference. So much for their testing. Hopefully dpreview editors if they read this post, will thoroughly test the feature when they review XT20.

Click to expand...

A bit strange... There should not be a strong relation between FD and CDAF/PDAF. ..

It should detect the face and then use the best focus mode, which can be either CDAF or PD AF.

But maybe I am missing something....

I remember this being mentioned in a couple of reviews a short while back (may even have been previews), and I also remember thinking it strange - and annoying for X-Pro2 and X-T2 buyers - that there was no mention of the feature being implemented in the up market models. I haven't found it reliable in the XT1 but a faster focusing version would be a boon to those photographing children.

Christof21 said:

Absolutic said:

This morning I briefly chatted with Rico Pfirstinger, who tests all Fuji pre-production cameras and (used to) blog about them on Fujifumors site.

Rico confirmed to me XT20 PDAF+FD feature. He saw this feature in pre-production firmware and wasn't sure it was being made into the production model. He is glad it did.

Why Fuji did not highlight this breakthrough (for Fuji) feature in its literature/presentations? We can only speculate that Fuji does not want to capitalize XT2 sales and/or get XT2 owners upset that they are missing this monumental AF feature available on a camera half the price.

I told Rico that it appeared to me that Face Detect on XT20 in general appeared to be miles away faster than on XT2 in any mode. Rico said that it does not 'appear' , it is of course faster because again it uses PDAF, and on XT2 and previous cameras, FD only uses CDAF, so it is slower.

Rico did remind me that even on XT20, the above holds true only for photo. For video, you want to use FD, you are back to Contrast AF even on XT20. So no advantage for video AF.

Rico did not know whether the feature can be implemented in XT2/XPRO2.

Another interesting point Rico made: While X100f came out on the same day as XT20, X100f lacks FD+PDAF feature. Only XT20 does have it.

I shared my disappointment with Rico that in 99.99% of so called COMPARE XT2 AND XT20 blogs, reviews, previews, and youtube video, NO REVIEWER so far noticed this difference. So much for their testing. Hopefully dpreview editors if they read this post, will thoroughly test the feature when they review XT20.

Click to expand...

A bit strange... There should not be a strong relation between FD and CDAF/PDAF. ..

It should detect the face and then use the best focus mode, which can be either CDAF or PD AF.

But maybe I am missing something....

Click to expand...

Different manufacturers do things differently. For example Panasonic has the best implementation of FD in my experience - faster than any other mfr. Face can be up/down/left/right/glasses/upside down, and it just instantly finds it. No other mfr is close, even though Sony, Olympus and now with XT20 Fuji, are very good. And Panasonic only has Contrast AF period. However, for Fuji, there appears to be a direct relationship between Phase Detect Points on Sensor and everything Autofocus related.

Vic Chapman said:

I haven't found it reliable in the XT1 but a faster focusing version would be a boon to those photographing children.

Click to expand...

I had XT1. The face recognition was a fail on XT1. Not only was it slow and non reliable, it also often would focus on a wrong eye, even though you asked for a closest eye. It was so bad (even after they did a firmware or two update) that I turned it off.

I had XT2. It was slightly better on XT2 than on XT1.

On XT20 I have it on at all times, as I have a very fast and always running 4 year old. It shows the face, and even the eye in focus (the eye not always). But it is very helpful to me, so I have it always on. And I am not afraid now that I am denying my camera ability to use Phase Detect Autofocus by choosing Face Detection, unlike on previous Fuji cameras.

foot said:

I've read reviews of the X70 has PDAF? Is this the same?

Thanks

Click to expand...

my X70 is great, but the AF is slow compared to my X-T20

photo perzon said:

foot said:

I've read reviews of the X70 has PDAF? Is this the same?

Thanks

Click to expand...

my X70 is great, but the AF is slow compared to my X-T20

Click to expand...

Thanks! There may someday be a X-T20 in my future

I really like the Fuji OOC jpeg experience

This is very interesting as a prospective Sony-switcher. The a6300 I rented had fantastic eye-AF and was very appealing, but the high cost of the camera (and complete lack of Black Friday sales) and dead-end of the APS-C glass isn't appealing to put more money into Sony. Lack of knowledge/videos about X-T20 AF was the principal thing holding me back from getting one already.

I hope to see a confirmation video about this (come on The Camerastore TV, but I'd take anyone).

I'm hoping for a big Fuji sale some time this spring (last May was a big sale) and I'll have to work out the money to see what I'd get. Probably the 16-50 (I love 24 mm-e), 23 and/or 50 f/2 and/or 55-200 or somesuch.

Anyway, thank you very much. I'm following this closely.

I think one of the interviews of Fuji guys, they did mention about how they are getting closer and closer to be able to use PDAF as opposed to CDAF. It seems like that time they came closer to using PDAF in x pro2 to some percentage (don't remember exactly but probably 50% of the time or something) then in xt2 they improved it further. They are working on improving how much of the times camera can use PDAF. This is all implemented via their algorithms. And I think after releasing XT2 they released update to Xpro2 which got that better AF and also that higher percentage (don't remember again how much % of the time) PDAF. So I would think they can probably release that better AF that can use PDAF now perhaps close to 100% of the times with just firmware update if they achieved it so far.

Also I am not sure what makes you think / believe what Rico says is absolutely true. If Fuji rep says that officially or if they release that as part of their product updates or specs then I would like to believe it. What Rico says could be his interpretation of what he saw in cameras he tested.

This is pretty typical behaviour for Fuji - they repackage the same hardware in multiple bodies (in this case the X-Trans III sensor and X Processor Pro) but as they continually tweak and improve the core firmware each new body appears to come with big new improvements, often mistaken for new hardware. In reality it's all software and those same tweaks eventually get back ported to the existing bodies with updates.

For instance, back when the XT10 came out it had the fastest AF of any Fuji, streaking past the much higher end XT1. Cue momentary gnashing of teeth on the side of XT1 owners and smugness from the frugal XT10 buyers, until firmware updates were announced and before long not only the XT1 but the much older XE2 had the exact same AF system and performance - because the underlying hardware was always the same between the three.

This happened again to a degree with the X-Pro2 and XT2 - many reviews still state that the XT2 has more focus points for example, when in reality that was just another software tweak that made it back to the XP2 also.

Personally I would bet good money that the next big XT2 (and probably XP2) updates will include FD using PDAF and within a couple of months all this will be forgotten.

Member said:

A bit strange... There should not be a strong relation between FD and CDAF/PDAF. ..

It should detect the face and then use the best focus mode, which can be either CDAF or PD AF.

But maybe I am missing something....

Click to expand...

But if there is no faces, the autofocus reverse to normal mode.

With the X-T2 and face detection enabled, the AF reverse to CDAF only. And it is a pain to disabled FD to enhance AF everytime there is no face (or FD failed).

Plus it seems (?) that X-T20 FD algo is now much better ?

The latest Sonys have an amazing Eye-AF.

Alphaville said:

The latest Sonys have an amazing Eye-AF.

Click to expand...

..... and?

Meanwhile Sony adds back virtually nothing via Firmware...

I'd argue that's because Sony's are usually fully competent devices when released, rather than having to work hard to fix stuff that should have been working correctly out of the box - hello repeated X-T1 AF updates. When there's something broken that should have been caught (like a6300 4K overheating) they do it with the speed of a giant corporation. Otherwise, I don't know what else Sony would fix or update. Maybe the a6500's apparently lack-luster touchscreen?

Sony added XAVCS codec to my a6000 (not that it's of any interest to me, but it's good for other folks) after they released XAVCS on the a7 family.

Alphaville said:

The latest Sonys have an amazing Eye-AF.

Click to expand...

Not really that amazing. I have A7RII and just sold my A6300 (I feel XT20 does as good job tracking as A6300 if not better). To get Eye AF, my always running 4 year old would have to be still for a second and facing the camera.... the moment he turns his head even a little, the Eye AF disappears. Plus you have to have a finger pressing the button non-stop to have it work. For a stationary models that just sit there for you, of course, it is great.

On XT20, it does show the eye in focus with a second little square if the subject is facing you, and you don't need to have any button pressed for that, it is just on.

According to the Fujirumours site yesterday, there are a number of firmware updates coming for number of X series camera's, perhaps the face detection update is amongst them.

Absolutic said:

On XT20, it does show the eye in focus with a second little square if the subject is facing you, and you don't need to have any button pressed for that, it is just on.

Click to expand...

Wow, that's amazing! Does that automatic eye focus work also in Continusous AF mode, like in a6300? I have a6000, and eye focus is available only in AF-S unfortunately...

Also, does XT20 FD work even on profiles? With a6000, FD doesn't seem to work unless both eye are in the frame...

mikan said:

Absolutic said:

On XT20, it does show the eye in focus with a second little square if the subject is facing you, and you don't need to have any button pressed for that, it is just on.

Click to expand...

Wow, that's amazing! Does that automatic eye focus work also in Continusous AF mode, like in a6300? I have a6000, and eye focus is available only in AF-S unfortunately...

Click to expand...

In Continuous AF CH on XT20 eye AF option is grayed out, only FD on or off is selectable, so I assume not. I think it might be available on Continuous Low, CL, but I need to double-check it at home.

mikan said:

Also, does XT20 FD work even on profiles? With a6000, FD doesn't seem to work unless both eye are in the frame...

Click to expand...

It is better than on the previous Fuji cameras. But if you want to experience the system that finds profiles, upside down faces, glasses, etc, and insanely fast, try any Panasonic mirrorless camera, say GX7 or GX8, nobody is even close to how Panasonic does Face Detect, it is instant and I mean instant, and because the face can be moved in any direction, I got a lot of keepers of my child with GX7.