Roland Karlsson
Forum Pro
The diaphragm coupling (that is missing in *istD)
does not tell the actual aperture. It tells the amount
the lens is stopped down.
Roland
-
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The *ist mount - the sad truth :(
- Thread starter Roland Karlsson
- Start date
does not tell the actual aperture. It tells the amount
the lens is stopped down.
Roland
cyberstudio
Leading Member
Well, in fact your very experiments are going to tell us how far off those M lenses are. 
I will stick with A lenses and Tamron Adaptall lenses.
It is a sad fact that *ist D does not take the oldest K mount lenses but think about it positively this way, *ist D is still THE cheapest DSLR which takes ANY CPU-less manual focus lenses (the Nikon AI-P manual focus lenses with CPU inside don't count). Compare the price of *ist D to Nikon D2H or Leica R8 with digital back ! Manual focus compatibility is simply not there with Nikon-mount entry-level offerings such as Fuji S2 Pro and Nikon D100. I am sure you will hear more complaints from Nikon users.
I will stick with A lenses and Tamron Adaptall lenses.It is a sad fact that *ist D does not take the oldest K mount lenses but think about it positively this way, *ist D is still THE cheapest DSLR which takes ANY CPU-less manual focus lenses (the Nikon AI-P manual focus lenses with CPU inside don't count). Compare the price of *ist D to Nikon D2H or Leica R8 with digital back ! Manual focus compatibility is simply not there with Nikon-mount entry-level offerings such as Fuji S2 Pro and Nikon D100. I am sure you will hear more complaints from Nikon users.
Frank from AZ
Senior Member
This whole thread shows the negatives of backwards compatibility. Maybe Olympus has it right by starting with scratch with the E1. I just hope my Pentax AF lenses all work as advertised with the *ist.
--
Frank from Phoenix
Olympus E20N; C5050; FL40; LiPo; Tripper 15 Gb, Pentax MZ-S
--
Frank from Phoenix
Olympus E20N; C5050; FL40; LiPo; Tripper 15 Gb, Pentax MZ-S
Bojidar Dimitrov
Forum Enthusiast
Hi,
Pentax has released enough new bodies to make it clear that they are moving away from aperture rings, and everyone who believes that newer bodies will be compatible with the oldest lenses is IMNSHO naive.
The digital exchange protocol between body, lens and flash (as initiated in 1987 with start of the F series) is very fine, quck, precise and CHEAP. The downside is, of course, that owners of fine lenses like 15/3.5, 17/4 fish, 18/3.5, 24/2.8, 28/3.5, 30/2.8, 85/1.8, M85/2, K/M 100/4 Macro, 135/2.5, 150/4, 200/2.5, etc are out of luck with the new and very interesting Pentax bodies.
But the real downside is that Pentax does not offer real alternatives to those lenses. The new FAJ 18-35 is the only really wide zoom, and it is a cheapie. The A15/3.5, A20/2.8, A24/2.8, etc are all discontinued, so one has to go for the FA lenses: FA20/2.8, FA*24/2.8, FA35/2, FA50/1.4, etc. These are all very expensive (compared to the competition) and are virtually never for sale used. The picture is the same with the zooms. The FA 20-35/4 is a very fine lens, but where is the f/2.8 version? The FA 24-90 is mediocre and cheaply built, and that's it if you want a wide-angle zoom. Whare are the FA* super-wide zooms?
Greetings,
Bojidar
--
Author of the Pentax K-Mount Home Page, http://KMP.BDimitrov.de/
This is correct. The *ist D will NOT meter properly with K or M lenses.
This is also correct. If you want to use the features of the new Pentax bodies, you should give up your K and M lenses. Concentrate on A, F and FA lenses instead.
Well, to lower costs. The aperture simlator and the aperture rings cost money, the take time to assemble, take time to engineer for each new product, and they cost LOTS of money to calibrate FOR EACH product (body or lens).
Pentax has released enough new bodies to make it clear that they are moving away from aperture rings, and everyone who believes that newer bodies will be compatible with the oldest lenses is IMNSHO naive.
The digital exchange protocol between body, lens and flash (as initiated in 1987 with start of the F series) is very fine, quck, precise and CHEAP. The downside is, of course, that owners of fine lenses like 15/3.5, 17/4 fish, 18/3.5, 24/2.8, 28/3.5, 30/2.8, 85/1.8, M85/2, K/M 100/4 Macro, 135/2.5, 150/4, 200/2.5, etc are out of luck with the new and very interesting Pentax bodies.
But the real downside is that Pentax does not offer real alternatives to those lenses. The new FAJ 18-35 is the only really wide zoom, and it is a cheapie. The A15/3.5, A20/2.8, A24/2.8, etc are all discontinued, so one has to go for the FA lenses: FA20/2.8, FA*24/2.8, FA35/2, FA50/1.4, etc. These are all very expensive (compared to the competition) and are virtually never for sale used. The picture is the same with the zooms. The FA 20-35/4 is a very fine lens, but where is the f/2.8 version? The FA 24-90 is mediocre and cheaply built, and that's it if you want a wide-angle zoom. Whare are the FA* super-wide zooms?
Greetings,
Bojidar
--
Author of the Pentax K-Mount Home Page, http://KMP.BDimitrov.de/
Sarbu Alexandru-Cristian
Well-known member
All the FA lenses will work. Also, you won't have any problem with A lenses. The K&M are those which causes problems (but you still can use them with an external meter).
Alex Sarbu
Alex Sarbu
Bojidar Dimitrov
Forum Enthusiast
Hi,
Cheers,
Bojidar
--
Author of the Pentax K-Mount Home Page, http://KMP.BDimitrov.de/
Three lenses will not work: FA 28/2.8 Soft, F 85/2.8 Soft and FA 85/2.8 Soft. The reason is that these feature a manual diafragm in the three widest apertures.
Cheers,
Bojidar
--
Author of the Pentax K-Mount Home Page, http://KMP.BDimitrov.de/
Robert Gonzalez
Forum Enthusiast
Bojidar Dimitrov
Forum Enthusiast
Hi Roland,
Cheers,
Bojidar
--
Author of the Pentax K-Mount Home Page, http://KMP.BDimitrov.de/
As long as the "A" aperture setting is engaged.
This is of very little interest to most of us, I believe. The fact is that the most expensive Pentax camera is not compatible with some of the best Penatx lenses.
This is simply because all the other manufacturers had already gone to AF and etnax stayed with manual focus until 1987. Still, the A lenses are generally great.
No, for me the reason is that Pentax produced very few exciting lenses after the A series.
I think the reason is that Pentax sells mostly to "people less serious about their hobby", and these people are mostyl happy with a 28-200 or 28-80 and 80-200 zoom.
The AF lenses are, however, poorly built. Especially the zooms.
What facts do you have to prove this?
This is plain wrong! The gold-plated contact is used for exchanging binary data between the body and the lens. You cannot transfer power via that contact.
What facts do you have to prove this?
This is plain wrong!
How long should we wait?
Cheers,
Bojidar
--
Author of the Pentax K-Mount Home Page, http://KMP.BDimitrov.de/
Franka T.L.
Veteran Member
Bojidar Dimitrov wrote:
.....
However, the lack of such optics force user to consider their real alternative, the K & M lens, and in that perspective, the lack of support for the K&M lineup is a big MINUS on the *ist-D. IMHO Pentax should provide that support at least till the next generation of DSLR bodies while filling up the lens lineup at the same time. They should look long and hard also at the recent crop of competetion also ...
--
Franka
.....
You know Bojidar, I've been say the same thing over and over again. I would gladly accept the fact that my old K & M lens are not usable on this new breed of bodies just like my K mount lens will not work on my spotmatic. But Pentax, at the very least, should give us a complemement of lens that's usable and worthy of a replacement ( both Optical & build quality ). Its suppose to be a system, and I cannot consider this a SYSTEM as of now since I do not see any viable lens lineup. Where's the good Fix Focal ( can't they just bring back the old 18/3.5 in A mount ). Where's the proper Mid-Range Fix-Focal and Zoom ( Not every one want a big heavy 85/1.4, 85/2.0 will do ). And I certainly will miss my M 20/4.0
However, the lack of such optics force user to consider their real alternative, the K & M lens, and in that perspective, the lack of support for the K&M lineup is a big MINUS on the *ist-D. IMHO Pentax should provide that support at least till the next generation of DSLR bodies while filling up the lens lineup at the same time. They should look long and hard also at the recent crop of competetion also ...
--
Franka
GW Martin
Member
Well, this is going to be a tough decision for a lot of us. I have a fair amount of M Series lenses, and I had been waiting a long time for Pentax to make use of them. I'm obviously very disappointed that they’re not going to be much use – and probably worth a lot less for resale now.
On the other hand, I’ve got a few A Series lenses that should work well: 50mm f1.4, 55mm f2.8 Macro, and 300mm f4. The 1.5x multiplier and high ISO capabilities of the *istD makes these lenses especially intriguing. I’ve also got a 28mm Shift lens that I’ve gotten a lot of use out of, but the 1.5x multiplier greatly diminishes its usefulness.
So the question is, what are the viable wide-angle solutions for the *istD? If I have to bite the bullet and move to another system (eg. Canon), I'd rather do it now than buy more glass for a system that’s not going anywhere (as I have apparently already done in the past).
Thanks,
Gary Martin
http://www.g-pix.com
Brad Morris
Senior Member
Sigma 15-30 EX is a great lens, comes in Pentax mount and gives you the equivalent of 22 mm at the wide end of the zoom
DCS-F707, Nikon CP 950, http://www.pbase.com/bmorris65 , http://www.usefilm.com/browse.php?mode=port&data=13628
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DCS-F707, Nikon CP 950, http://www.pbase.com/bmorris65 , http://www.usefilm.com/browse.php?mode=port&data=13628
D
Dave
Guest
Frank,
Like you and others I've been a very long time Pentax user (Prof.), and some of their decisions have confounded me. I agree, cripling the ist*D from fully utilizing M and K lenses was not the best decision although Nikon on many of their bodies have done the same. I agree that if they are going to make such decisions, then make available suitable replacements, especially those that want fixed focal length lenses. Pentax probably is assuming that the FA 77 f1.8 lens is a suitable lighter weight and smaller size replacement for the 85 f1.4 (yes I know and use the legendary 85 f1.8) and they do have a FA 20 f2.8 lens...but they certainly don't have the array of fixed focal length lenses they once had in K and M mounts (and some discountinued A lenses). Economics of course is here at work! Its most troublesome on the ultra wide end where it's needed most with the ist*D. and the future 16-30 (35?) mm is only a partial solution. It may be though that Pentax is thinking long term and eventaully have a higher end Digital SLR and that one will have the capability of using K, M, A FA FA2 etc. lenses. Nikon has folowed this stratigy (in reverse). Guesss time will tell.
Dave
Like you and others I've been a very long time Pentax user (Prof.), and some of their decisions have confounded me. I agree, cripling the ist*D from fully utilizing M and K lenses was not the best decision although Nikon on many of their bodies have done the same. I agree that if they are going to make such decisions, then make available suitable replacements, especially those that want fixed focal length lenses. Pentax probably is assuming that the FA 77 f1.8 lens is a suitable lighter weight and smaller size replacement for the 85 f1.4 (yes I know and use the legendary 85 f1.8) and they do have a FA 20 f2.8 lens...but they certainly don't have the array of fixed focal length lenses they once had in K and M mounts (and some discountinued A lenses). Economics of course is here at work! Its most troublesome on the ultra wide end where it's needed most with the ist*D. and the future 16-30 (35?) mm is only a partial solution. It may be though that Pentax is thinking long term and eventaully have a higher end Digital SLR and that one will have the capability of using K, M, A FA FA2 etc. lenses. Nikon has folowed this stratigy (in reverse). Guesss time will tell.
Dave
Bojidar Dimitrov
Forum Enthusiast
Hi,
The body lacks the aperture actuator, so the lens cannot tell the body which aperture is selected via the aperture ring. Since the body does not know, it assumes that the lens is wide open and meters accordingly. If your lens is indeed wide open, then the image is properly exposed. If your lens is stopped down X stops, then your image is X stops underexposed.
Now, if the lens is set to the "A" aperture, it is the body that controls the aperture, so it is all OK.
The moral of the story is: all lenses that have an "A" aperture setting should be set to "A". All those that do not have an A setting cannot meter properly.
Believe me, as sad as this is, Pentax made this move not to make us buy new lenses but in order to survive! The mechanical coupling is just too expensive...
Bojidar
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Author of the Pentax K-Mount Home Page, http://KMP.BDimitrov.de/
The body lacks the aperture actuator, so the lens cannot tell the body which aperture is selected via the aperture ring. Since the body does not know, it assumes that the lens is wide open and meters accordingly. If your lens is indeed wide open, then the image is properly exposed. If your lens is stopped down X stops, then your image is X stops underexposed.
Now, if the lens is set to the "A" aperture, it is the body that controls the aperture, so it is all OK.
The moral of the story is: all lenses that have an "A" aperture setting should be set to "A". All those that do not have an A setting cannot meter properly.
Believe me, as sad as this is, Pentax made this move not to make us buy new lenses but in order to survive! The mechanical coupling is just too expensive...
Bojidar
--
Author of the Pentax K-Mount Home Page, http://KMP.BDimitrov.de/
Bojidar Dimitrov
Forum Enthusiast
If they do, it is foolish not to tell us. Think of the thousands who will now sell or have already sold their Pentax glass and have gone to Canon. Pentax is moving with bodies AND lenses away from the aperture rings, so chances are VERY slim that they will go back and introduce a fully compatible body again.
I mean, who will buy that flagship DSLR? People who have $2500 in their pocket? These are long gone to Canon or to medium format.
Nikon has lots of professionals who have lots of older lenses. Pentax never had the "pro" following that Nikon did, and it is foolish from them to expect that people will wait long fo that mythical higher-end DSLR.
Greetings,
Bojidar
--
Author of the Pentax K-Mount Home Page, http://KMP.BDimitrov.de/
Roland Karlsson
Forum Pro
On a direct question to Canon Sweden - the answer was no.
They do not plan to support the diaphragm coupler any more,
neither on film nor on digital cameras.
Roland
Roland Karlsson
Forum Pro
D
Dave
Guest
Yes, I agree, it would be foolish for Pentax not to reveal that they might consider having a future higher end digital SLR with the necessary coupling for full use of M and K lenses but unfortunately thats not how camera companies work (these days). Things are so "close to the vest" (especially these days) that unlike years ago when company reps knew much of whats being developed months (or more) in advanced (including release dates for products etc.), they too are usually kept in the dark almost until the last minute except for those few that know someone inside the company on a more personal level.
On Nikon's D100 digital SLR and current mid priced film SLR's (and probably future mid priced digital SLR's) abandoned the ability of the user to meter with such lenses....obviously in the hope of getting users to purchase and replace many of their existing lenses. On their Professional level D1, D1x and D1H, although one can meter with these manual focus lenses, readouts in the viewfinder are limited as well as meter and flash choices (options and settings). Considerable number of Pro's and advanced amateurs complained relentlessly and Nikon has apparently (reluctantly) reversed course and in the upcoming D1h replacement, the D2h, older AIS (and I believe AI ) lenses will now function fully on the pro level Nikon Digital SLR's. Apparently Nikon disabled the full use of these manual focus lenses in the D1 series of cameras and has reversed this intentional disability.
With enough complaints, it may be possible that well down the road when Pentax releases new bodies (film, digital or otherwise), primarily higher end ones, they might reconsider their decision. The numbers as you state are not as numerous as Nikon users (especially in the Pro ranks), but Pentax is a company that has in the past responded. With the MZ-S, there have been many (especially Sport and Wildlife shooters) who could not understand why switching of Af points in this particular camera was such a cumbersome procedure compared to just having a thumb type touch pad as Nikon, Canon and all other do ( again especially when shooting fast and switching between Af points consistently were required). Thats why I passed over this particular camera (and I know other Pentax Pros I shoot with did likewise). Pentax was made aware of the complaints and although they probably won't release and updated version of this camera (MZ-S), did listen and incorporated a AF touch pad on future cameras. I know not the same as enabling the use of K and M lenses on the ist*D, but letting them know just might influence future higher end cameras still in development...although the days of the aperture ring are somewhat numbered, something Nikon users were certain wouldn't happen to their lenses, but it's already started to happen. With my being in both professional camps (Pentax and Nikon) it's interesting to see both the differences and parallel strategies when comparing both companies.
Dave
On Nikon's D100 digital SLR and current mid priced film SLR's (and probably future mid priced digital SLR's) abandoned the ability of the user to meter with such lenses....obviously in the hope of getting users to purchase and replace many of their existing lenses. On their Professional level D1, D1x and D1H, although one can meter with these manual focus lenses, readouts in the viewfinder are limited as well as meter and flash choices (options and settings). Considerable number of Pro's and advanced amateurs complained relentlessly and Nikon has apparently (reluctantly) reversed course and in the upcoming D1h replacement, the D2h, older AIS (and I believe AI ) lenses will now function fully on the pro level Nikon Digital SLR's. Apparently Nikon disabled the full use of these manual focus lenses in the D1 series of cameras and has reversed this intentional disability.
With enough complaints, it may be possible that well down the road when Pentax releases new bodies (film, digital or otherwise), primarily higher end ones, they might reconsider their decision. The numbers as you state are not as numerous as Nikon users (especially in the Pro ranks), but Pentax is a company that has in the past responded. With the MZ-S, there have been many (especially Sport and Wildlife shooters) who could not understand why switching of Af points in this particular camera was such a cumbersome procedure compared to just having a thumb type touch pad as Nikon, Canon and all other do ( again especially when shooting fast and switching between Af points consistently were required). Thats why I passed over this particular camera (and I know other Pentax Pros I shoot with did likewise). Pentax was made aware of the complaints and although they probably won't release and updated version of this camera (MZ-S), did listen and incorporated a AF touch pad on future cameras. I know not the same as enabling the use of K and M lenses on the ist*D, but letting them know just might influence future higher end cameras still in development...although the days of the aperture ring are somewhat numbered, something Nikon users were certain wouldn't happen to their lenses, but it's already started to happen. With my being in both professional camps (Pentax and Nikon) it's interesting to see both the differences and parallel strategies when comparing both companies.
Dave
Bojidar Dimitrov
Forum Enthusiast
Hello Dave,
I do believe that it makes sense for Pentax to abandon the aperture rings, and as sad as it is, I think that K and M users will ahve to buy new lenses... from Pentax or from other companies...
Cheers,
Bojidar
--
Author of the Pentax K-Mount Home Page, http://KMP.BDimitrov.de/
I hope you are right... Where do I sign? I have already written a letter to Pentax Japan, and most of the folks on http://www.PDML.net (the Pentax mailing list) have complained to Pentax Japan. Mutiny since March (when Pentax showed the "crippled" *ist and *ist D at the CeBIT in Germany), and the result is... *ist D is still "crippled.
I do believe that it makes sense for Pentax to abandon the aperture rings, and as sad as it is, I think that K and M users will ahve to buy new lenses... from Pentax or from other companies...
Cheers,
Bojidar
--
Author of the Pentax K-Mount Home Page, http://KMP.BDimitrov.de/
Bojidar Dimitrov
Forum Enthusiast
Hello Bryan,
This has been tested on a recent pre-release *ist D.
By the way, Arnold wrote to Pentax
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Author of the Pentax K-Mount Home Page, http://KMP.BDimitrov.de/
A great Pentax fan, Arnold Stark, had an even better idea:
- all new Pentax cameras have DOF preview and exposure lock
- so, when using a lens not set to A, when you press the exposure lock button, let the camera FIRST do DOF and THEN exposure lock. Voila!!!
This has been tested on a recent pre-release *ist D.
By the way, Arnold wrote to Pentax
--
Author of the Pentax K-Mount Home Page, http://KMP.BDimitrov.de/
Roland Karlsson
Forum Pro
Maybe - I have complained to Pentax Sweden. The reply
was a blank no though. But ... companies do change their
mind.
Roland
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