Upgrading/Changing Systems

Tariag said:

Going FF you would gain 1 stop or 2 on noise, but you would lose 1 stop or 2 on IS so considering that your subject aren't really moving so much, going FF would be useless (for the style of photography you have posted).

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that's a way overly broad generalization, because stabilization is very camera-specific.

"The A99 II's body-integrated 5-axis image stabilization system offers correction for X/Y motion, pitch, yaw and roll and provides up to 4.5 stops of correction. During my time with the A99 II, the image stabilization system worked well. When using the A99 II with the 16-35mm f/2.8 lens, I could get consistently sharp images with shutter speeds as slow as 1/5s at 35mm compared to 1/30s without image stabilization enabled. Results depend upon hand-holding technique, so other users may get different results, but the main conclusion is that the I.S. works and works well."

Daniel42 said:

Yeah, the last one is out of focus but I thought it was also a good example of the noisiness, that's why I uploaded it.

I looked at B&W picture's raw file again and processed it differently(using Silver Efex Pro). It looks better but is still really noisy.

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i've never tried that software, i use dxo prime, not sure if it's any better... avoiding noise when shooting, and cleaning it up later in post, can get very complicated.

the a7r, for example, has what's known as an iso invariant sensor, which means that it can be shot at base iso(usually iso100), and underexposed several stops, with less noise than if you turn the iso up, to the same level of brightness that you give it in post... if you keep the iso set lower than, say, iso2000 or so, there might also be minor gains to be had by underexposing it a couple of stops, vs. turning up the iso.

so you could research the gear that you currently own, and see if there is anything to be gained by shooting in such a manner.

i'll repost this test that i shot a couple of days ago; both pics are the same, the dark one was an out of camera jpeg, shot at the same time as the raw file... iso1000, i pushed the exposure in the raw file 4 stops, then processed the heck out of it.













--
dan

I was comparing specifically GX8 (+ 1 more stop with dual IS) to A7rII or Canon with IS lenses, as it was OP's options.

Daniel42 said:

Hello Everyone

I have been using a Panasonic GX8 for the past year. I bought it for a long trip and it served me admirably. That said, I have found its high-ISO performance to be poor. This has caused me to seriously consider upgrading. I mainly use my camera for street photography and I find myself shooting in poor lighting conditions many times. When I get a chance to, I will also use it for landscape photography. Another thing I have become interested in is Studio Photography, so I want a camera that will be suitable for studio work too.

The options I have thought of:

Sony A7R II + 24-70mm f4

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Looked at your pics, two were shot with the 25 mm 1.7. The A7RII at F4 would do worse, not better. The difference in noise is about 1,5 stops. 1,7 to F4 is 2 1/3 stop. It won't get you anything. and that is after resizing. At full size, the noise on the A7RII would be much worse.

Daniel42 said:

Canon 5D III + 24-70 f2.8 II

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About the same story: this is going to give you more flexibility and comparable noise when resizing to the 20 MP GX8 sensor.

Daniel42 said:

Not buy a new camera and instead upgrade my MFT lenses(currently only have Panasonic 14-140mm and Panasonic 25mm):

Panasonic 12-35mm f2.8

Panasonic 35-100mm f2.8

Olympus 7-14mm f2.8

Olympus 45mm f1.8

I would like to be make large prints of all my images (right now I have a fair amount that look pretty good IQ-wise on a screen but won't look good printed large).

So my question is will I see a significant improvement with the FF cameras or will the better lenses on the GX8 make a big enough difference to make high quality low-light photography possible?

Right now I am kind of stuck. I want to invest in new lenses in order to broaden my photographic horizons but I don't want to invest in a system that is not capable of giving professional results(I am wrong about this?).

If anyone can also recommend some basic things to start experimenting with studio lighting etc.

Thanks : )

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FF cams have about 1,5 to 2 stops better scores than this m43 cam. But that advantage will be diminshed of course when the lenses you are going to shoot with are slower.

So if you really want to make a jump in low light IQ: fast glass and FF sensor when things move especially.

There are other things to consider than just noise. The DR of the Canon at low ISO is worse than you panasonic so for landscapes that is a downside, the A7RII will be much better.

The FF sensors with the right glass will give you better tonality, better colours and better everything. For studiowork (skintones) this is easy to see and there is a reason why pro's shoot models with Medium Format sensors...

M43s however is capable of professional results. But you need good glass for it. 25 mm 1.7 is okeyish but surely not professional at all and the 14-140 is far removed from it. GX8 will get you stunning IQ with the 42,5 mm f1.2, the 25 mm 1,2 or 1.4, the 12 mm f1.4. Really good are the 42,5 mm f1.7 Panny, the 25 mm f1.8 Oly.

From my experience it is btw clear that the EM 1 mark 2 is a clear step up. It is the sensor but there seems to be more to it. Digilloyd is comparing it to Foveon when it comes to microcontrast and very good Leica cams (SL...). And notes it is punching far above its weight.

I have the EM1.2 and the HiRes mode is stunningly good and pretty usable for landscapes. It measures every colour which makes it better than any FF and even MF you can buy now. It is just the truth. Noise is also 3-4 stops better. You can look at a sample oif a landscape shot 9not a good shot, but stunningly detailed yet jsut a JPG! RAW is better!)

The single shot IQ is simply better especially at noise than any other m43 sensor. Everything is better.

Not that you should buy that camerabody now, but it is the future for possibly soon to come OLy (Em5.3?) and Panasonic cams I think.

With the glass you have, I'd say invest in good glass and look for new mFT cams to come. The latest sensor IQ in Em1.2 is hopefully a sign for more great IQ to come.


HiRes shot cropped


HiRes shot cropped


Single shot JPG.


Full size HiRes mode, open it up and use the loupe to see the detail. Not a good shot, but focussed on the foreground for detail


Single shot just a nice one I think...

Daniel42 said:

There is no doubt that I have a lot more to learn : ).

I want to improve and develop my photography. As a part of that I want to get some more lenses but I'm hesitant to invest in a system that I feel is limited.

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Every system is limited. FF is limited too. MF is limited too. Surely when we compare to the DR our eyes can see. None come close. It is mostly a feeling, it is not real.

And when you talk about limits then please do look at the number of lenses you can get for some systems and see what is available. How does size and weight affect you. Etcetc.
You to my mind have not at all reached the limits of your cam, you yourself and well that 14-140 lens too are the limitng factors mostly. I have seen work on the mFT forum but seriously good photgraphers, professionals, with the GX8 in low light that looks absolutely stunning. Much better than yours (and mine). So I can see your quest for a technological solution and the greener grass elsewhere but try to improve yourself. Some faster glass may of course help too and get the most out of this system before moving on.

Daniel42 said:

I might be completely wrong and that is why I'm asking for advice. Do you think that third example I have given would not look significantly better if taken with a FF camera? and the second one is bad technique on my part?

Regarding the first photo, I meant the file was taken to the limits in post-processing, I pushed the highlights and the shadows as far as I thought I could.

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It was overprocessed to my mind. Sometimes you got to play with what is available to you and try to get what isn't there. it is a fine balance, but go for the best looking pic you can. Means something different to each indvidual for sure.

I think the GX8 is a very good cam actually. You should be able to get great low light pics. I have seen many of them.

Drop the 14-140 and just use the 25 for a while. Forget the all-in-one zoom concept, speed and image quality of those lenses are too low for low light w/o a tripod, I think you are expecting too much. There are too many uncontrolled variables discussed in this thread for you to make a determination. I certainly would not be switching systems at this time. Try sneaking up on folks more stealthily.

Tariag said:

I was comparing specifically GX8 (+ 1 more stop with dual IS) to A7rII or Canon with IS lenses, as it was OP's options.

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there are industry-standard cipa test procedures for stabilization ratings.

i don't know what the 5dmkiii is rated at, but it's what, nearly five years old, and with no ibis, it's basically obsolete technology.

i can't find any cipa rating info on the gx8 website: http://shop.panasonic.com/cameras-a...as/DMC-GX8BODY.html#pnsb2c-pdp-specifications

the a7rii does have cipa test data for at least one lens combo: COMPENSATION EFFECT 4.5 steps (based on CIPA standard. Pitch/yaw shake only. With Sonnar® T* FE 55 mm F1.8 ZA lens mounted. http://www.sony.com/electronics/interchangeable-lens-cameras/ilce-7rm2/specifications

--
dan

Same image processed with Silver Efex Pro.

i think that processing is an improvement.

Thanks to everyone's input I have decided to stick to MFT for now. I've realised that I simply can't afford to switch to FF right now and actually enjoy the benefits. I also understand that I am yet to reach the limits of this system.

The lenses I'm thinking of buying now are:

Olympus 7-14mm f2.8

Panasonic 12-35mm f2.8

Panasonic 35-100 f2.8

Olympus 45mm f1.8

Are they good choices? Are there other lenses I should consider?

Also, if I want to start experimenting with studio lighting, what should I buy as a start?

Thank you, everyone, for your help!

So as an oddity.. Ussually things look worse on screen than printed. Have you done some prints and taken a good look?

Also good lenses are always king.

--

Rob aka NoTx...
-Always searching

I don't do low light photography, so I won't try to parse out those lenses.

Daniel42 said:

Also, if I want to start experimenting with studio lighting, what should I buy as a start?

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Depends in large part on what the subject is and how roomy the shooting space is. The best lighting gear for shooting gem stones will be very different from shooting a dance troupe! Links for ideas -

Site with Lighting Diagrams

Studio lights: can I do this ?

Studio Strobes and Spending Priorities

This is ultimately an expansive topic. I suggest that you start a fresh thread just for this discussion. Or piggyback on some of those old threads.

Kelly

Haven't had a chance to yet. I'm probably going to print soon as I've had a few friends ask for some prints. I will definitely take a close look and compare.

Thank you!

I will definitely look at those threads.

Does anyone happen to have any input regarding my choice of lenses?

I've found out that new versions of the 12-35mm and 35-100mm are to be released soon. Has anyone heard anything about them? Are they worth waiting for?