The 40mm GRIII

I would certainly buy both a 28 and 40mm Ricoh.

This Christmas period I'm going to try using 40mm only:

20mm on Panasonic GX85 µ43 and 40mm Voigtländer on Leica M-A Tri-X.

This means the GR is not going to see much use.
 
This has been a most interesting thread. I think, based on my experience so far with all three crop possibilities of the current GR (28, 35, and 47mm EFL) that I feel more settled with something near the upper end of that range (i.e., 40 to 50mm EFL). The possibility of a 40mm GR III brings to mind a couple questions:
  1. Could the optical excellence of the current GR lens be scaled up directly to 40mm EFL without giving away image quality?
  2. Any idea how much larger the camera would have to become to accommodate a 40mm EFL lens?
Sorry if these questions are redundant. I don't recall reading any answers to them in the foregoing discussion.
 
Well, this is simple really

Just google down the most famous street photographers over the last 50 years and say between 1950 and 2000 and look at what was their focal length of choice for street photography
Yes, ok....so name me a few that used 40mm exclusively.
Another thing you could look at how many street cameras had a 40mm option .INCLUDING fixed lenses cameras like the GR. For instance

The Rollei 35 (despite its name) had a 40mm on its most popular version. the 35mm version existed but was not as popular.

The Minolta CLE and Leica CL had a 40mm lens as their "standard" lens. Even Canon chose 40mm as their focal length with their Canonet QL model.(and btw Canon had also develop a Canonet 28mm which shows what a powerful combo a 28mm and a 40mm would do for street and everyday photography)

Even the Mamyia TLR cameras added a 65mm lens which was close to a 40mm FOV
I'm well aware of my photography and camera history. These cameras existed but how many were used by photographers to make the photography that history remembers? That is my point.
The 35mm was also very popular but mostly because of the immense popularity for film photographers of the Leica M which only had a window for the 35mm or the 50mm for normal focal lengths
Exactly.
Either way there is no denying that for most street photographers, for a VERY long time , a focal length between 35 and 40mm has been their favorite choice.
I can certainly deny this because the 50mm was popular too. It still is.
That being said , there are photogs who may prefer a somewhat wider focal length such as 28mm or slightly longer
Of course. Photographers use what they need to use to get the photos they need, not what is fashionable on the internet.
 
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I am fine with a step zoom like on the GXR A16 or changing focal lengths with one button push like on the GR crop that you can attribute to a function button. Both of these are fine as long as they are optional not forcing themselves into additional buttons . I just think Ricoh should avoid a continuous zoom function without steps

I hope this clarifies what I meant
Yes, it does. Thanks.

And I have to agree that step "zoom" would be preferable to continuous. So I guess all I'd really like is as hi-res and as clean a sensor as obtainable, to support higher definition at cropped settings. Then one can have their 28/35/40/50 mm GR.
All Panasonic cameras will crop sensor any oem lens that can be fitted including zoom lenses. It is not as accessible as the easy-Ricoh-way but is much the same thing.
Hi Tom, I do not understand this . How do you figure that out ?
Harold, sorry for the delay - I don't hang around the Ricoh forum as much as I used to do. :)

Page 211 of the GX7 manual talks about the "Ex. Tele Conv." which basically is a crop sensor zoom function. I don't like its limitations but it does something along the lines of the GR crop sensor zoom facilities. The Ricoh function is more natural and easier accessed - this is the "normal Ricoh" way of course. Crop sensor zoom is probably available on most cameras in one form or another.

In many ways I quite like the idea that maybe one day with a 56mp apc-s sensor the crop sensor zoom will make a single wide lens very useful indeed. This might give a very extendable and versatile camera in a copact package.
I don't think it is often used as the lenses available can be bought and used in multiple native focal length formats.
??? multiple native focal length formats ??
What I was trying to say was that there are something over 90 lenses made for the M4/3 mount system and hundreds more can be adapted to it. With such a choice of lenses it is a whole lot less necessary to rely on crop sensor zoom to make up for the more limited utility of a single fixed focal length lens.

Want an 85mm capture? - no need to crop sensor capture and then crop some more in post when you can use a native lens of this focal length and get an image with the full number of pixels that the sensor is capable of providing.
 
This has been a most interesting thread. I think, based on my experience so far with all three crop possibilities of the current GR (28, 35, and 47mm EFL) that I feel more settled with something near the upper end of that range (i.e., 40 to 50mm EFL). The possibility of a 40mm GR III brings to mind a couple questions:
  1. Could the optical excellence of the current GR lens be scaled up directly to 40mm EFL without giving away image quality?
  2. Any idea how much larger the camera would have to become to accommodate a 40mm EFL lens?
Sorry if these questions are redundant. I don't recall reading any answers to them in the foregoing discussion.
 
Use the latest 20MP 1" BSI sensor as featured in the Nikon J5 and pair it with a fine 24-85 F/2-2.8 GR lens, and wipe out 80% of the Panasonic LX and Sony RX100 imposter crowd in one sweep.

I'd be in in a heartbeat. Especially as the Nikon DL series also targeting this niche seem to be indefinitely delayed.
 
Use the latest 20MP 1" BSI sensor as featured in the Nikon J5 and pair it with a fine 24-85 F/2-2.8 GR lens, and wipe out 80% of the Panasonic LX and Sony RX100 imposter crowd in one sweep.
A Gx 200 successor is the ONLY ricoh camera for which a 1" sensor would lake some sense ( although a 4/3 sensor would be preferable ) but i doubt very much it would " wipe out" the rx100 which for the most part has a very different audience as any expert Ricoh camera

But such a camera will be great ( maybe 80mm woukd suffice and makes it easier to preserve IQ at max aperture) IF it had a high res EVF ( at least optional external ) AND IF it uses the same DB65 battery as the GR

Harold
 
I'd be very interested in a 40mm f2 or a 28-40mm zoom, 1-inch sensor GR, if the lens didn't grow compared to the aps-c lens and if it had an in-body optical viewfinder like the film gr1. It seems to me it should be possible to do. I'd take that over the GR/GR2 bigger sensors... Maybe under the optical image inside the viewfinder (with parallax error and all), a little lcd could show the basic exposure data and the focus distance (once half pressed, or in snap/manual). That would be my dream camera...
 
I'd be very interested in a 40mm f2 or a 28-40mm zoom, 1-inch sensor GR, if the lens didn't grow compared to the aps-c lens and if it had an in-body optical viewfinder like the film gr1. It seems to me it should be possible to do. I'd take that over the GR/GR2 bigger sensors... Maybe under the optical image inside the viewfinder (with parallax error and all), a little lcd could show the basic exposure data and the focus distance (once half pressed, or in snap/manual). That would be my dream camera...
Your dream camera has even less chances than mine to become a reality ;)

H
 
I know, but I can dream! : )

But really, I don't understand why none of the fixed focal length compacts (the Ricohs, the Coolpix A, the X70, even the expensive Leicas...) were designed with optical viewfinders in-camera. The only exception is the Fuji X100 series, and those viewfinders are more complicated than I need. And I understand the benefits of electronic viewfinders in zoom cameras, but didn't simple optical viewfinders in prime-lens film compacts work good enough for framing?
 
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... but didn't simple optical viewfinders in prime-lens film compacts work good enough for framing?
Yes, in manual focus cameras with low res film they worked ok. However, with AF it was always a guess as to if it would be in focus or not. In this regard, a simple VF might not be the best option for a high resolution digital.
 
I know, but I can dream! : )
But really, I don't understand why none of the fixed focal length compacts (the Ricohs, the Coolpix A, the X70, even the expensive Leicas...) were designed with optical viewfinders in-camera.
It's really simple. In film cameras and early digital cameas, an optical view finder was a necessity, and the choice for implementing one determined much of the design for camera; TLR, SLR or Rangefinder. It was a case of the tail wagging the dog.
The only exception is the Fuji X100 series, and those viewfinders are more complicated than I need. And I understand the benefits of electronic viewfinders in zoom cameras, but didn't simple optical viewfinders in prime-lens film compacts work good enough for framing?
With modern digital sensors having a live readout feature, an OVF is now an unecessary inconvenience by requiring a 2nd optical pathway to be designed and accommodated (volume and cost) purely on the grounds of familiarity and nostalgia.

As the old dogs expire, the argument of familiarity shifts more towards the smartphone photographer generation, so nostalgia will be the last stand of the OVF.

While using the rear screen to compose is obviously still an anathema to some traditionalists, it is easily demonstrated that this is an acquired prejudice and can easily be cured if the patient is willing.

The logic goes thus:

Using an eye level finder naturally places the composition at the photographer's eye level.

As photographers come in a variety of heights, it follows that this viewpoint is convenience based rather than optimal.

Indeed, photographers using eye level finders can often be seen crouching and contorting their body to adjust eye level to a more appropriate position, or even carrying around a step, or balancing precariously on a conveniently acquired chair to adjust eye level.

A rear screen however, places much fewer restrictions on the photographers viewpoint. An arm can be raised, lowered or extended to either side, approximately a circle of 2 meters in diameter of alternative vantage points.

And, as the photographer is still free to crouch, contort and balance, this 2 meter circle is always in addition to the eye level placement.

Telephoto lenses, compositional stability and bright sunlight are the obvious factors that keep the VF concept relevant, but EFV is the obvious choice as it can use the same optical path as image capture, along with offering additional features; exposure simulation, magnification, focus peaking, etc.

But we have to keep it real too, and we all know there are some old dogs who simply enjoy being wagged by their tail.
 
RIcoh GR is not a GR if it is anything other than 28mm.

Since this is a thread of opinions - 40mm is disgusting of a focal length.

As this thread is also a dream wishlist - a GR type body with pentax Q mount/sensor with super small, sharp high quality prime lens lineup (21,28,35 equiv/ leaf shutters), built in flash+hotshoe and no type of viewfinder > I would buy it. I enjoy the small sensor DOF, with larger apertures-faster shutter speed-lower iso combination > like the small sensor GRd except with an increase in sensor tech quality since then. This camera employs a mount that RIcoh already has access to and could actually produce a proper lens lineup for, it currently sucks. It gives ricoh an interchangeable optical lens sytem in a small camera with the best handling out there. It eliminates dust on sensor being an issue. People are convinced bigger sensor is better, as if smaller does not have benefits too - they do. For street/snap having large DOF at wide apertures fundamentally improves reaction time/ in focus usable shot. I will give them the name RIcoh GQ to use for free.

Having said that I would also buy the usual fixed 28mm GR as it currently is - shoehorned with the biggest-best sensor available (just like they have done so far just even better) > such as the Sony 42mp BSi full frame like as in the RX1Rii // then this would be used slower, for peak image quality.

Thankyou.
 
RIcoh GR is not a GR if it is anything other than 28mm.
just your opinion. Back in the film days , there was also an option with a 21mm FOV. The first two GRD had a converter to give the option of a 40mm so nothing says that there should NOT be a 40mm FoV option to be offered ALONG NOT INSTEAD of a 28 mm fov
Since this is a thread of opinions - 40mm is disgusting of a focal length.
ok you do not like but your choice of words seem a little bit " too much"
As this thread is also a dream wishlist - a GR type body with pentax Q mount/sensor with super small, sharp high quality prime lens lineup (21,28,35 equiv/ leaf shutters), built in flash+hotshoe and no type of viewfinder > I would buy it.
Something tells me you would be the only one ;)
I enjoy the small sensor DOF, with larger apertures-faster shutter speed-lower iso combination > like the small sensor GRd except with an increase in sensor tech quality since then. This camera employs a mount that RIcoh already has access to and could actually produce a proper lens lineup for, it currently sucks. It gives ricoh an interchangeable optical lens sytem in a small camera with the best handling out there. It eliminates dust on sensor being an issue. People are convinced bigger sensor is better, as if smaller does not have benefits too - they do. For street/snap having large DOF at wide apertures fundamentally improves reaction time/ in focus usable shot.
There is virtually no market for this
I will give them the name RIcoh GQ to use for free.
OMG, in this case it changes everything! Some of the stuff you write is hilarious
Having said that I would also buy the usual fixed 28mm GR as it currently is - shoehorned with the biggest-best sensor available (just like they have done so far just even better) > such as the Sony 42mp BSi full frame like as in the RX1Rii // then this would be used slower, for peak image quality.
Another terrible idea. But no worry, this is NOT going to happen

H
 
Instead of substituting a new lens for the present incredibly good lens, I would use an APS C sensor with 24 mp (like the Fuji X-T2, but not X-Trans). Then I'd get the added focal length by facilitating an easy continuous in-camera crop from 28 to 40 or 50 mm EFL -- i.e., digital zoom.
That s fine who only post on social media or only print like 8x10 but only an emergency solution for others at the 47 mm crop
I figure that one would still have about 12 mp usable sensor area at 50 mm EFL.
I do not think so . The 47mm crop on the current 16 mp GR gives like a 5.7 mp file. So on the 24mp sensor you would get (24/16) X 5.7 which is just about 8.5 MP not 12 Mp
I'll leave it to the Ricoh engineers to come up with the ergonomically best way for the user to manage the crop/zoom.
A crop zoom, yuck !
Interesting.

When I put a 12mm lens on one of my M43 bodies, it has an equivalent FL of 24mm, is this not the crop factor of x2 at work?

Indeed, the GR does not have a 28mm lens, it has an 18.5mm lens.

Does the 'zoom' from 18.5mm to an eFLof 28mm not come from the a factor of x1.5 due to an APS-C sized sensor in the GR?

So if we now adjusted that sensor size to a crop factor of x2, virtually - by ignoring the edges of the sensor, not physically by taking a hacksaw to it, the image now becomes...

...eFL 37mm and Yuck?

--

Andy
Try reading comments with a smile. You may discover they were written that way.
 
Ricoh has some knowledge on how to make lenses for the new GR, no doubt. I hope for 28mm equivalence again but lets see.

Just a side note: among the many Ricoh cameras in the past, 2 lens designs for 35mm film really spoke to me: 21mm/3.5 and 28mm/2.8

Who knows...
I'd buy either one coming in a compact GR body!
Go Ricoh go!
 
Instead of substituting a new lens for the present incredibly good lens, I would use an APS C sensor with 24 mp (like the Fuji X-T2, but not X-Trans). Then I'd get the added focal length by facilitating an easy continuous in-camera crop from 28 to 40 or 50 mm EFL -- i.e., digital zoom.
That s fine who only post on social media or only print like 8x10 but only an emergency solution for others at the 47 mm crop
I figure that one would still have about 12 mp usable sensor area at 50 mm EFL.
I do not think so . The 47mm crop on the current 16 mp GR gives like a 5.7 mp file. So on the 24mp sensor you would get (24/16) X 5.7 which is just about 8.5 MP not 12 Mp
I'll leave it to the Ricoh engineers to come up with the ergonomically best way for the user to manage the crop/zoom.
A crop zoom, yuck !
Interesting.

When I put a 12mm lens on one of my M43 bodies, it has an equivalent FL of 24mm, is this not the crop factor of x2 at work?

Indeed, the GR does not have a 28mm lens, it has an 18.5mm lens.

Does the 'zoom' from 18.5mm to an eFLof 28mm not come from the a factor of x1.5 due to an APS-C sized sensor in the GR?

So if we now adjusted that sensor size to a crop factor of x2, virtually - by ignoring the edges of the sensor, not physically by taking a hacksaw to it, the image now becomes...

...eFL 37mm and Yuck?

--

Andy
Try reading comments with a smile. You may discover they were written that way.
Crop, one word, so many uses, so many apples and oranges :-)
 

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