Is longer tele a good enough reason to go MFT?

That has always been my approach/solution for wildlife photography.

With 2x cropped factor, I can reach twice as far comparing to FF.

With 2x DOF, I can shoot at F2.8 to F4.0 and take advantage of fast shutter speed; while FF users have to go to F5.6 to F8.0 to have same adequate DOF. This requires raising the ISO at the same time to achieve same fast shutter speed. This eliminates the FF advantage has with regard to high ISO noise.
...a 70-300 for mFT is f/4-5.6 (f/8-f/11 FF equivalent) whereas a 150-600 for FF is f/5.6-6.3. So, per what you wrote, FF gives "adequate DOF" wide open whereas mFT forces a deeper DOF than "necessary" at the cost of some light.
Here you are with equivalent none sense again! Light is light, aperture is aperture, F4.0-5.6 is F4.0-5.6. Repeat that ten times!
Then what kind of crazy person would buy something which has an F/4 { 600mm effective FF AOV } when you can get an F/2.8 { 600mm effective FF AOV } with a free camera and massive zoom range thrown in for a fraction of the size weight and cost. Are sure sensor size doesn't play a major roll :-)
Then why are you shooting m43? then why aren't everyone walks around with a 50X super-zoom shooting the moon cameras? Go to Olympus SLR and look at Richard Pavak The Sunday Birds Volumes forum; count how many shooting with super-duper-zoom cameras; and then count how many shooting with the E-M1 or any m43 cameras? That will give you an idea of what kind of a crazy person you are.
I am not the one stating that "F/4.0-5.6 is F/4.0-5.6 repeat that ten times" . My point about the 2 cameras is to demonstrate the daftness of your statement. The sensor size has a critical impact on the effect of aperture. Again it you who is suggesting that nominal apertures, across formats are the same not me.

As for your suggestion, you want me to go to an Olympus DSLR forum and be surprised by the fact that people are not shooting with superzooms :-) Thanks I really appreciate when you flat earther refugees from the FT days make your selves known so quickly it saves a lot of wasted time responding to inane drivel
 
That has always been my approach/solution for wildlife photography.

With 2x cropped factor, I can reach twice as far comparing to FF.

With 2x DOF, I can shoot at F2.8 to F4.0 and take advantage of fast shutter speed; while FF users have to go to F5.6 to F8.0 to have same adequate DOF. This requires raising the ISO at the same time to achieve same fast shutter speed. This eliminates the FF advantage has with regard to high ISO noise.
...a 70-300 for mFT is f/4-5.6 (f/8-f/11 FF equivalent) whereas a 150-600 for FF is f/5.6-6.3. So, per what you wrote, FF gives "adequate DOF" wide open whereas mFT forces a deeper DOF than "necessary" at the cost of some light.
Here you are with equivalent none sense again! Light is light, aperture is aperture, F4.0-5.6 is F4.0-5.6. Repeat that ten times!
Then what kind of crazy person would buy something which has an F/4 { 600mm effective FF AOV } when you can get an F/2.8 { 600mm effective FF AOV } with a free camera and massive zoom range thrown in for a fraction of the size weight and cost. Are sure sensor size doesn't play a major roll :-)
Then why are you shooting m43? then why aren't everyone walks around with a 50X super-zoom shooting the moon cameras? Go to Olympus SLR and look at Richard Pavak The Sunday Birds Volumes forum; count how many shooting with super-duper-zoom cameras; and then count how many shooting with the E-M1 or any m43 cameras? That will give you an idea of what kind of a crazy person you are.
I am not the one stating that "F/4.0-5.6 is F/4.0-5.6 repeat that ten times" . My point about the 2 cameras is to demonstrate the daftness of your statement. The sensor size has a critical impact on the effect of aperture.
Well, strictly, the sensor size has almost no impact on the effect of aperture. It has a lot of impact on the effect of f-number. One of the reasons for this confusion is that people confuse and conflate the two. If two lenses with different focal lengths have the same f-number, they must inevitably have different apertures.

So, people say 'f/2=f/2' while ignoring that the value of 'f' is the focal length, so if you're talking about a 25mm lens, 'f/2' works out at 12.5mm, whilst for a 50mm lens it works out at 25mm.
Again it you who is suggesting that nominal apertures, across formats are the same not me.

As for your suggestion, you want me to go to an Olympus DSLR forum and be surprised by the fact that people are not shooting with superzooms :-) Thanks I really appreciate when you flat earther refugees from the FT days make your selves known so quickly it saves a lot of wasted time responding to inane drivel
 
That has always been my approach/solution for wildlife photography.

With 2x cropped factor, I can reach twice as far comparing to FF.

With 2x DOF, I can shoot at F2.8 to F4.0 and take advantage of fast shutter speed; while FF users have to go to F5.6 to F8.0 to have same adequate DOF. This requires raising the ISO at the same time to achieve same fast shutter speed. This eliminates the FF advantage has with regard to high ISO noise.
...a 70-300 for mFT is f/4-5.6 (f/8-f/11 FF equivalent) whereas a 150-600 for FF is f/5.6-6.3. So, per what you wrote, FF gives "adequate DOF" wide open whereas mFT forces a deeper DOF than "necessary" at the cost of some light.
Here you are with equivalent none sense again! Light is light, aperture is aperture, F4.0-5.6 is F4.0-5.6. Repeat that ten times!
Then what kind of crazy person would buy something which has an F/4 { 600mm effective FF AOV } when you can get an F/2.8 { 600mm effective FF AOV } with a free camera and massive zoom range thrown in for a fraction of the size weight and cost. Are sure sensor size doesn't play a major roll :-)
Then why are you shooting m43? then why aren't everyone walks around with a 50X super-zoom shooting the moon cameras? Go to Olympus SLR and look at Richard Pavak The Sunday Birds Volumes forum; count how many shooting with super-duper-zoom cameras; and then count how many shooting with the E-M1 or any m43 cameras? That will give you an idea of what kind of a crazy person you are.
I am not the one stating that "F/4.0-5.6 is F/4.0-5.6 repeat that ten times" . My point about the 2 cameras is to demonstrate the daftness of your statement. The sensor size has a critical impact on the effect of aperture.
Well, strictly, the sensor size has almost no impact on the effect of aperture. It has a lot of impact on the effect of f-number. One of the reasons for this confusion is that people confuse and conflate the two. If two lenses with different focal lengths have the same f-number, they must inevitably have different apertures.
Yep, I should have clarified that point, I did add the / sign into his statement :-) Unfortunately the group of die-hards from the Olympus DSLR forum have had these concepts explained to them literally thousands of times to no effect. It would be bad enough if folk held their hands up and said look I don’t understand it but no you get abusive defenders of the faith who go to comical extremes to explain their flawed interpretation of what is a simple topic.
So, people say 'f/2=f/2' while ignoring that the value of 'f' is the focal length, so if you're talking about a 25mm lens, 'f/2' works out at 12.5mm, whilst for a 50mm lens it works out at 25mm.
Again it you who is suggesting that nominal apertures, across formats are the same not me.

As for your suggestion, you want me to go to an Olympus DSLR forum and be surprised by the fact that people are not shooting with superzooms :-) Thanks I really appreciate when you flat earther refugees from the FT days make your selves known so quickly it saves a lot of wasted time responding to inane drivel
 
Are you absolutely certain that the apparent lack of critical sharpness elsewhere on the bird was not because the lens was focusing on the side feathers, which I suppose won the challenge? In other words, a greater DoF could be an improvement ;)
 
After reading for example many of the posts in this thread by a guy who wanted to take some snaps of the birds on the bird tray in his garden it seems the older I get, the more I realise that the world is populated with vast numbers of people that thrive on complexity.

Instead of actually producing something of use like photographs with their cameras, they would rather pontificate on theoretical nonsense, as this replaces the need for them to actually accomplish something with their photography.
 
Youth hockey has been history for a few years now. (I'm impressed that you remembered.) Boys are in college and didn't pursue athletics. It sure was a fun time while it lasted. Enjoyed by players and "grandpa photographer" alike.
 
Does everything have to devolve into a shouting match about equivalence?

Why does every single factor about every system have to get thrown into the mix?

Why can't people keep it simple?

If you look at bodies as if they were the equivalent to film types back in the day, you'd pick a film based on its total characteristics: Color signature, speed, grain, intended use of final output. If you were going to be often shooting in low light, you wouldn't pick a Kodachrome 25 film, conversely, in bright daylight when you needed ultimate sharpness and low grain, you wouldn't pick an ISO 3200 film to use. Why can people think of the overall output characteristics (noise, color, gradation) of each individual camera body as if they were film, and use that as their starting point for evaluating the rest of the system?

M43 bodies are going to be noisier (in their current incarnation) than current FF and most APSC sensored bodies. That's a given. Why not keep that as a separate entity from the rest of the equation, since it is a constant anyway about the bodies?

Here's my radical suggestion:

Anyone looking at M43 should look at images (either actual photos or images from test sites), and, before going any further, decide if the levels of noise at all ISOs are acceptable for their purposes.

If they are, then moving further and evaluating the lens and body options next makes much, much more sense.

If they are not, why kill yourself trying to make this system do what it's not best at? If you need more light to get what you want out of a camera system, then get a camera system that captures more light in the first place; e.g. FF.

Jumbling all of this together just clouds the issue completely, and makes people want to tear their hair out.

So, here's the summary in a nutshell:

You want great low light performance? Get a FF body (Some APSC's are good, too)

You want lots of tele reach in a portable system?: M43 is a great option

You do lots of macro work in good light?: M43 is your macro friend

You want tons of subject isolation without spending big bucks for high end lenses? FF is stupid easy for this

You do BIF a lot, and want tracking AF? Your choice here. There are good and bad in all formats now

You want to keep lens and system size down but still have lots of options in bodies and lenses? M43 is an exceptional option for this

You want advanced video options? Panasonic is a really a leader in this segment. Sony does pretty well also, but they have that overheating thing going that has been a problem in the past....and their lens selection is not as robust

You want to take photos in near darkness a lot of the time? M43 is the totally wrong choice for your purposes; An A7SII would be a fantastic option for you

__________________________________________________________________________________________

So, how about using this as a premise next time the E arguments start up?

Sensor characteristics are a constant per body. Pick the bodies that will give you the noise/color/DR characteristics that you want, and then move on to figuring out if the rest of the system options are going to work for you. All of this dancing on the head of a pin to make it all jumble together is futile, confusing, and a royal PITA otherwise.

-J
 
People are not going to be very happy about your proposal as it on purpose left out SLRs ;)
 
All the OP wanted to do was to get some decent snaps of birds on his bird table.

Quite amusing and incredible how this thread evolved.

But we all know that when the "E stone" cops turn up mayhem is not far away.

--
http://nigelvoak.blogspot.it/
 
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I've been following this thread with great interest. Do not take my lack of more frequent responses here as a lack of interest. Except for a couple of random off-shoots, you have touched on many things that are really of concern to me. To set the record straight, I've chosen to examine MFT because of portability. I am older, and gear does weigh upon me; these days, sooner than later. Also cost is a very important factor. Hence my willingness to go into good used gear. In fact, if truth be told, most of my gear has been purchased used. But you wouldn't know it by how it looks; as I take VERY good care of my "stuff". I would be more than willing to part with all of my current gear in exchange for some MFT gear with a far reaching tele lens. All except for my Panasonic FZ1000. In fact if there were a highly recommended aux. lens to extend the range of then FZ1000 and retain quality, I'd go with it. But there really isn't. MFT looks like a possible solution.
 
I've been following this thread with great interest. Do not take my lack of more frequent responses here as a lack of interest. Except for a couple of random off-shoots, you have touched on many things that are really of concern to me. To set the record straight, I've chosen to examine MFT because of portability. I am older, and gear does weigh upon me; these days, sooner than later. Also cost is a very important factor. Hence my willingness to go into good used gear. In fact, if truth be told, most of my gear has been purchased used. But you wouldn't know it by how it looks; as I take VERY good care of my "stuff". I would be more than willing to part with all of my current gear in exchange for some MFT gear with a far reaching tele lens. All except for my Panasonic FZ1000. In fact if there were a highly recommended aux. lens to extend the range of then FZ1000 and retain quality, I'd go with it. But there really isn't. MFT looks like a possible solution.
For a fact, mFT is an excellent option. However, if you have an FZ1000, which is also an excellent option, I'm not sure what you're looking for mFT to do that the FZ1000 doesn't. If it's more reach, then check out this write-up of the Nikon J5, chock full of examples -- seems to be perfect for the type of photography you're talking about.

Simple fact of the matter is that there are any number of great choices for what you want to do. To narrow it down, you have to be more specific in terms of your requirements to see which option best meets them.
 
People are not going to be very happy about your proposal as it on purpose left out SLRs ;)
More to the point are the 1" options out there which may be just what the OP is looking for, especially since size, weight, reach, and cost are primary concerns of his (this is not to say that mFT won't suit him better still, of course, but 1" is certainly worth a mention).
 
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People are not going to be very happy about your proposal as it on purpose left out SLRs ;)
More to the point are the 1" options out there which may be just what the OP is looking for, especially since size, weight, reach, and cost are primary concerns of his.
He's already got a 1" cam, the FZ1000. Wants more reach. The G3X and RX100 III ain't cheap, nor that much of an upgrade from his FZ1000.

I'm not sure if buying into a Nikon 1 system and getting the $1000 70-300 lens is a very good idea at this point, given that pretty much everyone thinks that system is now defunct...
 
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People are not going to be very happy about your proposal as it on purpose left out SLRs ;)
More to the point are the 1" options out there which may be just what the OP is looking for, especially since size, weight, reach, and cost are primary concerns of his (this is not to say that mFT won't suit him better still, of course, but 1" is certainly worth a mention).
He was joking......In case you didn't realize it, he said SLRs not DSLRs....

-J
 
People are not going to be very happy about your proposal as it on purpose left out SLRs ;)
More to the point are the 1" options out there which may be just what the OP is looking for, especially since size, weight, reach, and cost are primary concerns of his.
He's already got a 1" cam, the FZ1000. Wants more reach. The G3X and RX100 III ain't cheap, nor that much of an upgrade from his FZ1000.

I'm not sure if buying into a Nikon 1 system and getting the $1000 70-300 lens is a very good idea at this point, given that pretty much everyone thinks that system is now defunct...
Well, the FZ1000 tops out at 200mm mFT equivalent. You can get out to 300mm on mFT without too much expense, if 300mm does it. But the 70-300 on a J5 goes out to 400mm mFT equivalent, and to get that on mFT is not going to be smaller, cheaper, or lighter.

So, I guess the question is, will 300mm on mFT do it for him or does he want longer still?
 
People are not going to be very happy about your proposal as it on purpose left out SLRs ;)
More to the point are the 1" options out there which may be just what the OP is looking for, especially since size, weight, reach, and cost are primary concerns of his (this is not to say that mFT won't suit him better still, of course, but 1" is certainly worth a mention).
He was joking......In case you didn't realize it, he said SLRs not DSLRs....

-J
Oh, so now you're calling SLRs dumb with the "D" prefix, eh? :-D
 
I've been following this thread with great interest. Do not take my lack of more frequent responses here as a lack of interest. Except for a couple of random off-shoots, you have touched on many things that are really of concern to me. To set the record straight, I've chosen to examine MFT because of portability. I am older, and gear does weigh upon me; these days, sooner than later. Also cost is a very important factor. Hence my willingness to go into good used gear. In fact, if truth be told, most of my gear has been purchased used. But you wouldn't know it by how it looks; as I take VERY good care of my "stuff". I would be more than willing to part with all of my current gear in exchange for some MFT gear with a far reaching tele lens. All except for my Panasonic FZ1000. In fact if there were a highly recommended aux. lens to extend the range of then FZ1000 and retain quality, I'd go with it. But there really isn't. MFT looks like a possible solution.
For a fact, mFT is an excellent option. However, if you have an FZ1000, which is also an excellent option, I'm not sure what you're looking for mFT to do that the FZ1000 doesn't. If it's more reach, then check out this write-up of the Nikon J5, chock full of examples -- seems to be perfect for the type of photography you're talking about.

Simple fact of the matter is that there are any number of great choices for what you want to do. To narrow it down, you have to be more specific in terms of your requirements to see which option best meets them.
Yes, I'd agree. If this is the case, I'd look into either m43 or Nikon 1 cameras. Both will be great.

Here's an example of a good Nikon 1 system you'd be able to put together in budget:
  • Sigma 18-200mm lens used for about $250 (or Nikon 70-300mm for $400)
  • Nikon FT-1 Adapter (Nikon F-mount to Nikon 1): about $175 used
  • Nikon 1 J5 used for about $400
$825 (rough total). This gives you a 1" BSI sensor, very fast on-sensor phase detect autofocus, 540mm (equiv.) reach, light weight. For an extra $150 (still under $1000), you can extend the reach to 810mm equivalent.

Alternatively, there may be some m43 options within budget, like:
  • Panasonic 100-300mm lens used for about $475
  • (a m43 with phase detect autofocus ) for about $500. I couldn't find any with a quick search but they could exist in this range. I'd strongly recommend phase detect autofocus, because the lenses to be a bit slower and birds move. :)
I think for your budget, weight restrictions, and planned use, the Nikon 1 will be the best fit. However, if your budget was stretched a bit more, you'd have more competitive m43 options.
 

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