True prosumer-killer

diness said:

Laurie Strachan said:

Better? Not necessarily. The evf shows you the actual picture you
are about to capture. An optical viewfinder shows you the scene you
are about to photograph. A big difference.

Click to expand...

And what is that difference? IMHO optical viewfinders are much
better because they're much brighter and very easy to focus with.
I'm interested to see what this difference is in your opinion.

Tony

--
http://www.pbase.com/diness

Click to expand...

Also there is no lag with optical.

I've found it's not so much the evf that makes it hard to focus on something like the 602 but the huge DOF. Also I find the focusing aids on optical eg split image etc more effective than the magnify aid.

An evf does show you the WB to some extent but for me that slight advantage is far outweighed by the short comings. One day evf will probably be better than optical but I've not come across one yet that is.

Tony,

In my opinion, an optical lTTL view (SLR) is typically better than an EVF; an EVF is typically better than an optical finder (non-SLR). (All assuming that each kind is first-rate.)

Doug Kerr

diness said:

And what is that difference? IMHO optical viewfinders are much
better because they're much brighter and very easy to focus with.
I'm interested to see what this difference is in your opinion.

Click to expand...

Ian,

ianR said:

He dropped a bombshelll, said he's interested in the new Fuji
coming out in September, the one with the 30mp sensor. He says a
few of his colleagues have been discussing it.
I assume he means 15mp interpolated (he's not very technical, a
film guy up to now) but even so, interesting eh. I think there may
be a few more surprises in the works.

Click to expand...

Which machine do we think this refers to? Possibly the "S9000" (or maybe the "S20", which one of the guys said its real name will be)? That's the machine I'm really waitng to hear about! I hope that when I do it will take my mind off the Sony F828!

Doug Kerr

Ian,

Sorry to read of your plight. After all the good reviews of the 717, including personal ones on this site extolling the virtues of the camera, I thought I was about the only one that didn't like that camera's pictures. A friend bought one not too long after they came out and what struck me most was the look of glare caused by excessive CA on objects in the sun. He returned it because of focus problems. Then I checked in a gallery a full size fine image that had water and dark shadows in it and it looked terrible, just as you described. I wondered if it were the camera or if the photographer had used a high ISO and then overworked it for noise reduction. I couldn't see the appeal of the camera. Now you confirm the impressions I had.

Hope you get something that works well for you soon. I enjoyed your 6900 shots.

Regards,

Bob

ssab said:

diness said:

Laurie Strachan said:

Better? Not necessarily. The evf shows you the actual picture you
are about to capture. An optical viewfinder shows you the scene you
are about to photograph. A big difference.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

The image on the ground glass of an SLR is a good version of the image you are going to capture, except that the DOF isn't going to show unless you use DOF preview, stopping down the lens. Does the 602 show you the DOF as the exposure you take will have? Often, no. Neither show you effects of exposure adjustments, either. The 602 will SOMETIMES show the effects of white balance.

ssab said:

ssab said:

And what is that difference? IMHO optical viewfinders are much
better because they're much brighter and very easy to focus with.
I'm interested to see what this difference is in your opinion.

Tony

--
http://www.pbase.com/diness

Click to expand...

Also there is no lag with optical.
I've found it's not so much the evf that makes it hard to focus on
something like the 602 but the huge DOF. Also I find the focusing
aids on optical eg split image etc more effective than the magnify
aid.

Click to expand...

My Canon SLR has a microprism screen and split center spot for focus, but I don't think that's typical on DSLRs. Still, I can focus much easier on the ground glass, even with the lens stopped down considerably, than I can manually focus the 602. The Minolta 7i screen shows the focus in a much better crispness than does the 602, similar to the ease of focusing on ground glass. Problem is, the viewfinder lens is so distorted it still hard to use. Oddly, with the 602, the picture you see after taking looks much sharper than the view before taking it, but the 7i has a sharper view before taking than the picture displays afterward, even if the picture is sharp.

ssab said:

An evf does show you the WB to some extent but for me that slight
advantage is far outweighed by the short comings. One day evf will
probably be better than optical but I've not come across one yet
that is.

Click to expand...

But this baby has (almost) the same CMOS sensor as the D10. That should be very promising. Prosumer cams use CCD sensors.

Raist3d said:

Karl Günter Wünsch said:

Raist3d said:

I don't quite understand why this would kill the Sony 828... what
is the Euro price of the Sony?

Click to expand...

The RRP for the Sony is rumoured to be between 1150 and 1500 Euro.
Even if that works out as RRP 1150 for a start for only 50 Euro
more you'd get a fully fledged SLR and a decent EF mount lens with
it! And the tele zoom lens 88-310mm (after factoring in the smaller
sensor) is available at 350 Euro.

Member said:

I don't get a sense that SLR
automatically means everyone else is dead.

Click to expand...

Oh they won't roll over in torment and die of sheer envy but the
market for the prosumer market just got hit hard on the head by a
major hammer. A prosumer camera with it's compromises should IMHO
cost maximum half the price of a D-SLR to compensate you for living
with just these compromises. The Sony esp. is a big uggly duckling
and is designed to compete with DSLR cameras for people who can't
afford a DSLR (as is the Minolta and to a degree the S7000). Now
for the same price as the 828/A1 you could get a true DSLR. Unless
Minolta and Sony drop their RRP by at least 1/3 the market they are
aiming for has evaporated.

Member said:

I wonder how the sensor
of the Canon works, and if it is the same in terms of quality as
"typical digital SLR's"

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

What I mean is that I don't see what in SLR means better picture
quality than another camera that it's not SLR. As far as I
understand SLR allows you to see what the lenses is viewing.. and
that's excellent for composition but intrinsically by itself it
doesn't mean you get a higher quality capture. What extra
information or what an SLR is supposed to do other than that, that
should capture better? I can imagine the 828 of Sony capturing
higher resolution and that.

(btw, I am not knocking down Canon.. it's just that I don't see why
SLR by itself means right away better).

Member said:

The sensor and processing is the same as in the D10. This is the
killer for all those small sensors that suffer from noise as soon
as you raise the sensitivity.

Click to expand...

Well if the sensor is the same as the D10 then that's another
matter I am still open to what the new Sony sensor can do
though.

• Raist

Member said:

--
regards
Karl Günter Wünsch

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

photobob said:

Ian,

Sorry to read of your plight. After all the good reviews of the
717, including personal ones on this site extolling the virtues of
the camera, I thought I was about the only one that didn't like
that camera's pictures. A friend bought one not too long after they
came out and what struck me most was the look of glare caused by
excessive CA on objects in the sun. He returned it because of focus
problems. Then I checked in a gallery a full size fine image that
had water and dark shadows in it and it looked terrible, just as
you described. I wondered if it were the camera or if the
photographer had used a high ISO and then overworked it for noise
reduction. I couldn't see the appeal of the camera. Now you confirm
the impressions I had.

Hope you get something that works well for you soon. I enjoyed your
6900 shots.

Regards,

Bob

Click to expand...

Thank you very much Bob that's really very nice of you.

I wasn't sure myself for a long time, partly because I'd just moved house and my computer was in a box so I was trying to judge image quality on my laptop. I also thought that user error and learning curve came into it.

But after about 1000 pics or so, I didn't have a single one I liked and then I bought a Canon A70 for my mother in law and straight out of the box there was more life in the pictures. That was the turning point.

It is incredible though how you can point the 717 at sparkling water and see no reflections.

The flash is a disaster too. It has a fixed WB you can't change so it is awful for fill-in.

Plus, although the shutter lag is pretty fast, with the flash on it was nearly 1/2 second. Press count one, two, flash! Useless.
Once again thanks Bob.

Doug Kerr said:

ianR said:

He dropped a bombshelll, said he's interested in the new Fuji
coming out in September, the one with the 30mp sensor. He says a
few of his colleagues have been discussing it.
I assume he means 15mp interpolated (he's not very technical, a
film guy up to now) but even so, interesting eh. I think there may
be a few more surprises in the works.

Click to expand...

Which machine do we think this refers to? Possibly the "S9000" (or
maybe the "S20", which one of the guys said its real name will be)?
That's the machine I'm really waitng to hear about! I hope that
when I do it will take my mind off the Sony F828!

Doug Kerr

Click to expand...

No idea Doug. It's infuriating because on the one hand, he's pretty vague and uninformed and really not at all technical, but in another way, that makes it even more likely because he clearly couldn't make it up. Plus he's remarkably well connected and it may well be exactly those people who would know.

I think it'll be out of my price range though, but I do feel that there's a smell of a lot happening at the moment and that could provide something very interesting.

I'm seeing him again next week and I asked him to see if he could get any more snippets in the meantime, so if anything more substantial comes of it, I'll start an 'official rumour'.
Ian

Ben,

My very thought!

Doug Kerr

Ben Herrmann said:

Hello Karl:

Regardless of the various explanations given why people decide to
purchase this camera or that camera...there remains one minor, yet
very important reason why many purchases are made. And that is how
the camera looks. Many manufacturers will be playing the ongoing
game of "one-up-man-ship" over the next six months. We will have a
difficult time holding our breath as new competing models are
introduced. And I will be laughing because as each new model is
released, someone will issue a posting that says, "wow, the new
Wooten Wombat 23 megapixel point and shoot will destroy the
competion now..." I don't think so.

I personally think the new Rebel D300 looks like the 35MM rebel -
that is cheap looking and amateurish. I don't care if it had 20
MP, I believe that a large segment of digital prosumers will not
purchase it for precisely that reason...the looks. I believe each
new camera being released will find its niche among admirers. For
example, I love the appearance of the new Sony F828, and unless
that camera really takes a hit during various reviews, I intend on
standing in line to get one.

Click to expand...

Ben,

Besides, how could an ethnic Yankee like me ever think of buying something called . . . Well, you know!

Doug Kerr

How many times has the sub $1000 DSLR been talked of here over the last few years?

Whatever thre limitations of the camera - and, on paper, there don't seem to be too many - Canon have broken ranks and driven the market towards new territory. Will I be swapping my 6900? Not yet. One swallow doesn't make a summer and it will be interesting to see how the rest follow.

There are many good technological and economic reasons for the others to sit tight and let Canon test the temperature of the market. Whilst people on forums like this may drool and make a choice based on some, or a great deal of, knowledge, the mass market will decide how soon the low end DSLR will take over the prosumer market.

In 12 months there will be many here who decide to buy now who will be drooling over something else. Unless you have cash to burn, why be a pioneer? Have patience and see if the market is driven down, if the technology improves at, or just below, current prices and if the current offering stands up in terms of wear and tear.

I got caught by Canon this last year or so. Having had a T80 SLR for years, I was sold on their product reliability. I needed a new photo printer and, 15 months ago bought an S900 for printing items for sale. I only dabble in sales and have printed around 200 10x8s on it. It has now stopped working due to a print head error. Most other people, with heavier use, hit this problem in the warranty period and Canon agreed a problem and replaced the heads. Canon says mine needs a new head (which is a consumable which I was told would print around 1000 10x8s) and refuse to replace it for free due to the date of purchase. I'm currently preparing a small claims action against them on the grounds of lack of durability. Meanwhile my Epson 740 continues to give sterling service.

From now on I'm not buying any photo technology until the bugs are known.

Anyway, this is a small beginning. If the others follow Canon, you can be sure of very competitive deals, DSLR packages with a variety of lenses, more lens mounts a la SLRs, all to hook in the film user.

In 12-18 months the whole set up will have changed beyond recognition.

PhilB

...of your plight, I can agree with you in respect of the canon A70 as I've just bought my wife one.

Take care Ian, I hope you get sorted soon.

--
regards, Mark: )

http://mallen.instantlogic.com/

I believe I have no prejudices whatsoever. All I need to know is that a man is a member of the human race. That's bad enough for me. -Mark Twain

Those powershot A60/70's are probably the best kept secret ever. I, too, bought my wife an A60 and have become quite amazed at the pictures. Took it to Belize for some SCUBA diving with the u/w housing and it was just amazing..

-marius

mark allen said:

...of your plight, I can agree with you in respect of the canon A70
as I've just bought my wife one.

Take care Ian, I hope you get sorted soon.

--
regards, Mark: )

http://mallen.instantlogic.com/
I believe I have no prejudices whatsoever. All I need to know is
that a man is a member of the human race. That's bad enough for me.
-Mark Twain

Click to expand...

--
-marius
Visit the S602Z FAQ: http://www.marius.org/fuji602faq.php
Fuji Forum Mugshot at http://www.fujimugs.com/

Doug Kerr said:

Tony,

In my opinion, an optical lTTL view (SLR) is typically better than
an EVF; an EVF is typically better than an optical finder
(non-SLR). (All assuming that each kind is first-rate.)

Doug Kerr

Click to expand...

Yeah, that's what I think too. I was just wondering what she thought the big difference was between seeing "the actual image" through an EVF as she put it, and seeing the scene through the optical TTL view. In my opinion you're just seeing the scene in both of these. I suppose that may be because I use a 602 which doesn't show you the exposure of your picture on the EVF, but gives you a bar with how well it's exposed. I've been using the EVF for awhile now, and most of the time I like it fine... but in low light situations, it would be much better to have an SLR.

Tony

--
http://www.pbase.com/diness

..we normally keep a couple of each model, and with daily deliveries rarely run out of cameras, the A70 we keep 8 and can't get enough.

Even if I manage to scrape together enough cash to get a 300D, I won't be completely with the darkside as to get my 602 off me you'd have to pry it from my dead fingers.

--
regards, Mark: )

http://mallen.instantlogic.com/

I believe I have no prejudices whatsoever. All I need to know is that a man is a member of the human race. That's bad enough for me. -Mark Twain

I know what you mean Doug (I moved south from Pennsylvania).

As an aside, I'm almost at the stage where I'm beginning to hope that all of these manufacturers should stop releasing so many new innovative cameras. Just like cars, I can remember going into various showrooms back in the 1950's and 60's and out of all of the vehicles on sale back then, maybe choosing just one particular model that would be my favorite (out of all of the dealers). Now, it's virtually impossible to walk into any one showroom without picking one or two models that would do the trick.

The same it is with cameras now. Other than the fact that Canon is releasing a whole slew of different models with increasingly low price points, I personally (just a personal decision) do not care for their gear - especially the looks of the EOS stuff. But that is just me. Having been a Nikon user for over 30 years I tend to like the looks and feel for the Nikon gear. And more recently I've become a Fuji color fanatic (just love those Fuji colors - think Velvia here).

As for the Sony stuff, I've always liked the color shots taken with "some" of the Sony units, but would never purchase due to the memory stick issue. But now, with the release of the 828, all of this may change.

Gosh, if my wife only knew of my habits. I have no vices - don't smoke or drink (well, heavily I don't). Eventually she's gonna find out that the Fuji S2 Pro that I own was NOT purchased at Wal-Mart on sale for $69.95, or the D100 at Target for only $99.95. But gosh, these are exciting times technology-wise, and I'm certainly "not gonna" miss out! If it means that eventually I'm not gonna get laid, then so be it (I'll just have to buy more 512 Meg CF cards on sale at K-Mart for $19.95....ha, ha, ha).

I recommended an A40 to one co-worker a year ago and an A60 to another two months ago. Both for upcomming vacations. Neither had used a digital camera before. Both came back with hundreds of fantasic pictures taken with Auto mode. I am still amazed at how well these cameras take pictures without leaving Auto mode.

Steve Simpkin

marius said:

-marius

mark allen said:

...of your plight, I can agree with you in respect of the canon A70
as I've just bought my wife one.

Take care Ian, I hope you get sorted soon.

--
regards, Mark: )

http://mallen.instantlogic.com/
I believe I have no prejudices whatsoever. All I need to know is
that a man is a member of the human race. That's bad enough for me.
-Mark Twain

Click to expand...

--
-marius
Visit the S602Z FAQ: http://www.marius.org/fuji602faq.php
Fuji Forum Mugshot at http://www.fujimugs.com/

Click to expand...

mark allen said:

..we normally keep a couple of each model, and with daily
deliveries rarely run out of cameras, the A70 we keep 8 and can't
get enough.

Even if I manage to scrape together enough cash to get a 300D, I
won't be completely with the darkside as to get my 602 off me you'd
have to pry it from my dead fingers.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the wishes Mark.

When I ordered the A70 the store said I was 76th in line and they were getting about 8 a week in. It took about 6 weeks in fact to take delivery.
They really have done an incredible job on that little camera.
Even the flash performs well IMO.

To add another couple of comparisons with the 717, 60% faster shutter speed with same ISO and Fno metered on spot on a blank white wall.

This fits in with the reports from Phil etc, that Canon 1SO50 is really nearer 80 or higher.

Secondly, ISO200 on the A70 has way less noise than 200 on the 717, so factor in the speed advantage and that's a big difference. This isn't reflected in the tests but it is in real life.
WB is consistently more accurate too. The 717 has a rather green/yellow cast.

I should really have kept the 6900, I agonised about it but I had this vision of it just sitting in a drawer like all my other old cameras and never being used again. I got 450 euros which is about £300 I think, and I thought someone else might get some use out of it.
But I have certainly regretted it.
Ian

The difference is precisely what I said it is. In the majority of cases, with a small sensor and its huge depth of field, the evf IS the picture; what you see in an optical viewfinder, on the other hand, can never be anything but the scene you hope will be the picture. One is fact, the other is hope. I'd always prefer to trust fact over hope.

Try this: Put your 602 on a tripod and look through the evf. Press the shutter. Now look through the evf again and toggle the switch between Review and Shoot (or whatever the little camera icon is called). There's no difference. WYSIWYG. Of course it only works on auto modes or manual without any compensation but it does tell you something about the accuracy of what you're seeing. The evf also tells you straight away if a backlit shot is going to look stupid if you don't compensate or meter for something other than the frame you're looking at.

I love the lcd too -- it's a godsend for quick macro shots that you don't have to crouch for (flowers and so on) and it's great for composing a still life without getting a crick in your back.

Chacun a son gout, or, as you would say in the Land of the Free, different strokes ....

BTW: For those under the wrong impression, I'm not a sheila, I'm a bloke. Laurie is a man's name in Australia.

diness said:

Laurie Strachan said:

Better? Not necessarily. The evf shows you the actual picture you
are about to capture. An optical viewfinder shows you the scene you
are about to photograph. A big difference.

Click to expand...

And what is that difference? IMHO optical viewfinders are much
better because they're much brighter and very easy to focus with.
I'm interested to see what this difference is in your opinion.

Tony

--
http://www.pbase.com/diness

Click to expand...

ianR said:

Doug Kerr said:

ianR said:

He dropped a bombshelll, said he's interested in the new Fuji
coming out in September, the one with the 30mp sensor. He says a
few of his colleagues have been discussing it.
I assume he means 15mp interpolated (he's not very technical, a
film guy up to now) but even so, interesting eh. I think there may
be a few more surprises in the works.

Click to expand...

Which machine do we think this refers to? Possibly the "S9000" (or
maybe the "S20", which one of the guys said its real name will be)?
That's the machine I'm really waitng to hear about! I hope that
when I do it will take my mind off the Sony F828!

Doug Kerr

Click to expand...

No idea Doug. It's infuriating because on the one hand, he's pretty
vague and uninformed and really not at all technical, but in
another way, that makes it even more likely because he clearly
couldn't make it up. Plus he's remarkably well connected and it may
well be exactly those people who would know.
I think it'll be out of my price range though, but I do feel that
there's a smell of a lot happening at the moment and that could
provide something very interesting.
I'm seeing him again next week and I asked him to see if he could
get any more snippets in the meantime, so if anything more
substantial comes of it, I'll start an 'official rumour'.
Ian

Click to expand...

Hi Ian (still laughing here and Doug,

Perhaps this is the one?
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0303/03031103fujifilmmfback.asp

--
Regards, Mark
http://community.webshots.com/user/marksfinepix