First 24MP APS-C sensor was more than 5 years ago

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The A77 came out more than 5 years ago offering 24MP in a "cropped" sensor. This is now the entry level in APS-C. It is also the top end.

Interesting. Basically, current cameras offer only one MP count. Why is this, I wonder? Is 24MP simply the practical limit (seems unlikely given that phones and compacts have higher pixel densities). Or is it that people simply don't care any more and more MP doesn't sell?

Aside from purchasing a DP2M (just an experiment really), all my cameras are 16MP equivalent and below.

I was surprised when I realised I've been using 16MP for this length of time and feel no inclination to upgrade at all. 24MP calls me not one jot. I do plan to upgrade my Lumix G6 to a G7 when the prices/used prices fall to bargain basement level simply for the ergonomics but the image quality is identical to what I have now.

Threads on this forum indicate that people are still interested in ever-refining image quality but this seems to be a minority view these days. Image quality everywhere seems to be sufficient for most people and the manufacturers themselves. Not much pushing of the envelope any more aside perhaps from Sigma and the medium format suppliers.
 
Samsung went up to 28mp in the excellent NX line ....... then decided to quit the camera market.
 
Indeed - although I feel the 28MP was really just to get a slightly bigger number for advertising. Samsung haven't even bothered to sell their sensors to Pentax. 28MP is so close to 24MP in pixel count it is the same in practical photography (an increase in linear size of 4%. I dare anyone to be able to spot that!).

The point remains - there has been no improvement in pixel count for crop sensors (apart from Foveon) for over 5 years. When has that happened before in the short history of digital?

Samsung went up to 28mp in the excellent NX line ....... then decided to quit the camera market.

--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/simon-nx/
Trying to capture the images i see around me.
--
Galleries and website: http://www.whisperingcat.co.uk/
Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidmillier/
 
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Indeed - although I feel the 28MP was really just to get a slightly bigger number for advertising. Samsung haven't even bothered to sell their sensors to Pentax. 28MP is so close to 24MP in pixel count it is the same in practical photography (an increase in linear size of 4%. I dare anyone to be able to spot that!).

The point remains - there has been no improvement in pixel count for crop sensors (apart from Foveon) for over 5 years. When has that happened before in the short history of digital?
Samsung went up to 28mp in the excellent NX line ....... then decided to quit the camera market.
 
The ASP-C sensor is 24x16mm (384 mm^2) +/- (and the FF is 36x24 (864 mm^2). The pixel density of a 24 mp ASP-C is 62,500 pixels/mm^2 +/-. The pixel density of a 36 mp FF is 41,667 pixels/mm^2 +/-. A 50 mp FF is 57,870 pixels/mm^2 +/- which is less dense than a 24 mp ASP-C sensor. A FF with the same density as a 24 mp ASP-C would be 54 mp.

There is always a trade off with pixel density and noise and pixel density and dynamic range. In these respects bigger pixels are better. Given that the push today is lower noise and higher ISO and higher dynamic range I expect I expect that is the push today by the foundries - especially Sony over pixel density.

So we may have very well reached plateau in pixel density. In reality today's 24 mp sensors produce amazing images - probably comparable to 6x7 film. Now to get better sensitivity and noise performance so the low light and dynamic range performance can be enhanced.

Truman

The A77 came out more than 5 years ago offering 24MP in a "cropped" sensor. This is now the entry level in APS-C. It is also the top end.

Interesting. Basically, current cameras offer only one MP count. Why is this, I wonder? Is 24MP simply the practical limit (seems unlikely given that phones and compacts have higher pixel densities). Or is it that people simply don't care any more and more MP doesn't sell?

Aside from purchasing a DP2M (just an experiment really), all my cameras are 16MP equivalent and below.

I was surprised when I realised I've been using 16MP for this length of time and feel no inclination to upgrade at all. 24MP calls me not one jot. I do plan to upgrade my Lumix G6 to a G7 when the prices/used prices fall to bargain basement level simply for the ergonomics but the image quality is identical to what I have now.

Threads on this forum indicate that people are still interested in ever-refining image quality but this seems to be a minority view these days. Image quality everywhere seems to be sufficient for most people and the manufacturers themselves. Not much pushing of the envelope any more aside perhaps from Sigma and the medium format suppliers.
 
The ASP-C sensor is 24x16mm (384 mm^2) +/- (and the FF is 36x24 (864 mm^2). The pixel density of a 24 mp ASP-C is 62,500 pixels/mm^2 +/-. The pixel density of a 36 mp FF is 41,667 pixels/mm^2 +/-. A 50 mp FF is 57,870 pixels/mm^2 +/- which is less dense than a 24 mp ASP-C sensor. A FF with the same density as a 24 mp ASP-C would be 54 mp.

There is always a trade off with pixel density and noise and pixel density and dynamic range. In these respects bigger pixels are better. Given that the push today is lower noise and higher ISO and higher dynamic range I expect I expect that is the push today by the foundries - especially Sony over pixel density.

So we may have very well reached plateau in pixel density. In reality today's 24 mp sensors produce amazing images - probably comparable to 6x7 film. Now to get better sensitivity and noise performance so the low light and dynamic range performance can be enhanced.

Truman
 
The A77 came out more than 5 years ago offering 24MP in a "cropped" sensor. This is now the entry level in APS-C. It is also the top end.
Yes, very interesting, isn't it? If the sensor is supposed to be the expensive part, why do high-end DSLR cameras still cost so much? Why don't they all cost about $200 to $300? I see no reason the "new" Nikon D500, with its 20 MP sensor, should cost $2,000 or even $1,000. Sony sold the A77 for $800 three years ago. Both shoot fast (though the A77 could shoot faster than today's new Nikon D500 can). Both have high quality screens on the back. Both are weather sealed. Nikon and Canon are somehow successfully fleecing photographers, and for some reason neither Sony or Pentax seem to have a significant affect on their prices.
Interesting. Basically, current cameras offer only one MP count.
Actually it's two - 24 MP and 20 MP (i.e. the new Canon 7 D Mk II and the new Nikon D500).
Why is this, I wonder? Is 24MP simply the practical limit (seems unlikely given that phones and compacts have higher pixel densities).
No, it is not the practical limit, because there is very good image quality produce with cameras that have sensors with far greater density (i.e. the 20 MP 1" sensors in the Panasonic FZ1000 and their ilk, as well as the Sony cameras with their 1" sensors). Even Nikon's 1" sensor of the V3, which is 18 MP, has a far greater density than a 24 MP APS-C sensor. The image quality from those cameras is excellent . . . though their lenses are purpose built.
Or is it that people simply don't care any more and more MP doesn't sell?
I think that people do care about more MP, but not so many people do and there are no options, other than more expensive full-frame cameras, like the Nikon D810 and now the Canon 5 Ds and Sony A7r II. Obviously the Sony A7r II is selling well (it has 241 reviews at B&H already), and that is an indicator that people do indeed have an interest in spending more money to get more MP. Otherwise they would just buy the A7 II instead of the A7r II. In fact, the A7r II is almost twice the price of the A7 II, yet the A7r II has more than twice as many reviews. To me this indicates that there is a strong desire for more MP, but people are not getting what they want. I think it's sad and almost criminal.

Pentax needs to buy Samsung sensors. Unfortunately I think Pentax is often a follower, rather than a leader. Look how long it took them to make a full-frame camera. Look how long it took them to make a 24 MP camera. (I think they were the last APS-C size DSLR manufacturer to make one . . . except Sigma, who have never made one.)
Aside from purchasing a DP2M (just an experiment really), all my cameras are 16MP equivalent and below.

I was surprised when I realised I've been using 16MP for this length of time and feel no inclination to upgrade at all. 24MP calls me not one jot. I do plan to upgrade my Lumix G6 to a G7 when the prices/used prices fall to bargain basement level simply for the ergonomics but the image quality is identical to what I have now.

Threads on this forum indicate that people are still interested in ever-refining image quality but this seems to be a minority view these days.
This couldn't be further from the truth. Virtually nobody who doesn't want high image quality will spend the money to buy a big, heay, expensive, DSLR and lenses. The same goes for full-frame cameras. Most people buy those to get better quality, and they are selling better than ever.
Image quality everywhere seems to be sufficient for most people and the manufacturers themselves.
Of course it's "sufficient" for the manufacturers. They don't want to spend as much money on the cameras. They want to maximize profit. It's almost as if they're too stupid to realize what's going on with Sony and their 42 MP A7r II.
Not much pushing of the envelope any more aside perhaps from Sigma and the medium format suppliers.
Even the medium format suppliers haven't been pushing the envelope much. They apparently either can't afford to or they don't want to. They made 33 MP sensors ten years ago, and they have only barely tripled that, when they should have been doubling resolution every two years, which would put them at more than 200 MP by now. The way digital sensor resolution was growing between 2001 and 2006, there is no way that Pentax would have released an upgraded camera that had a sensor with only 25 % more megapixels. From 2010 to 2016 Pentax went from a 40 MP camera to a 50 MP camera. That's pathetic. The crazy thing is that people seem to think Pentax is still a good value. That shows how little pushing of the envelope there has been in the medium format market. It's no wonder medium format cameras haven't been selling much.

A real company (like Phase One) would upgrade sensor resolution more significantly. There's a reason Phase One is doing so well. They are the only company to provide a decent quality 100 MP camera with a decent line of lenses. If Hasselblad had pushed the envelope, they would not be making 50 MP cameras anymore. Instead, they would have a 120 MP camera, which would be twice the megapixels of their 60 MP camera, which they made years and years ago.

I wouldn't call Sigma's step up from 14.7 MP to 19.6 MP a "pushing of the envelope" . . . really. It took more than two or three years for that little upgrade . . . and it really was a small upgrade, when you compare the image file samples from the SD1 and sd Quattro. Finally Sigma is about to deliver a sensor bigger than APS-C. It's about time! Where is the 30 MP sensor? If Sigma REALLY wanted to push the envelope, they would have one by now. It's been five years since they made their 14.7 MP sensor and the SD1 camera to put it in. There is NO reason they should have not upgraded to a sensor with double the megapixels in that much time. They haven't even announced a camera that is double the megapixels of the SD1 yet.

"The SD1 was announced by Sigma at photokina 2010 on September 21, 2010. It was officially put on sale in May 2011 . . ." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigma_SD1#Sigma_SD1_Merrill
 
The ASP-C sensor is 24x16mm (384 mm^2) +/- (and the FF is 36x24 (864 mm^2). The pixel density of a 24 mp ASP-C is 62,500 pixels/mm^2 +/-. The pixel density of a 36 mp FF is 41,667 pixels/mm^2 +/-. A 50 mp FF is 57,870 pixels/mm^2 +/- which is less dense than a 24 mp ASP-C sensor. A FF with the same density as a 24 mp ASP-C would be 54 mp.

There is always a trade off with pixel density and noise and pixel density and dynamic range. In these respects bigger pixels are better. Given that the push today is lower noise and higher ISO and higher dynamic range I expect I expect that is the push today by the foundries - especially Sony over pixel density.

So we may have very well reached plateau in pixel density. In reality today's 24 mp sensors produce amazing images - probably comparable to 6x7 film. Now to get better sensitivity and noise performance so the low light and dynamic range performance can be enhanced.

Truman
The A77 came out more than 5 years ago offering 24MP in a "cropped" sensor. This is now the entry level in APS-C. It is also the top end.

Interesting. Basically, current cameras offer only one MP count. Why is this, I wonder? Is 24MP simply the practical limit (seems unlikely given that phones and compacts have higher pixel densities). Or is it that people simply don't care any more and more MP doesn't sell?

Aside from purchasing a DP2M (just an experiment really), all my cameras are 16MP equivalent and below.

I was surprised when I realised I've been using 16MP for this length of time and feel no inclination to upgrade at all. 24MP calls me not one jot. I do plan to upgrade my Lumix G6 to a G7 when the prices/used prices fall to bargain basement level simply for the ergonomics but the image quality is identical to what I have now.

Threads on this forum indicate that people are still interested in ever-refining image quality but this seems to be a minority view these days. Image quality everywhere seems to be sufficient for most people and the manufacturers themselves. Not much pushing of the envelope any more aside perhaps from Sigma and the medium format suppliers.
 
The A77 came out more than 5 years ago offering 24MP in a "cropped" sensor. This is now the entry level in APS-C. It is also the top end.
Yes, very interesting, isn't it? If the sensor is supposed to be the expensive part, why do high-end DSLR cameras still cost so much? Why don't they all cost about $200 to $300? I see no reason the "new" Nikon D500, with its 20 MP sensor, should cost $2,000 or even $1,000. Sony sold the A77 for $800 three years ago. Both shoot fast (though the A77 could shoot faster than today's new Nikon D500 can). Both have high quality screens on the back. Both are weather sealed. Nikon and Canon are somehow successfully fleecing photographers, and for some reason neither Sony or Pentax seem to have a significant affect on their prices.
Interesting. Basically, current cameras offer only one MP count.
Actually it's two - 24 MP and 20 MP (i.e. the new Canon 7 D Mk II and the new Nikon D500).
Why is this, I wonder? Is 24MP simply the practical limit (seems unlikely given that phones and compacts have higher pixel densities).
No, it is not the practical limit, because there is very good image quality produce with cameras that have sensors with far greater density (i.e. the 20 MP 1" sensors in the Panasonic FZ1000 and their ilk, as well as the Sony cameras with their 1" sensors). Even Nikon's 1" sensor of the V3, which is 18 MP, has a far greater density than a 24 MP APS-C sensor. The image quality from those cameras is excellent . . . though their lenses are purpose built.
Or is it that people simply don't care any more and more MP doesn't sell?
I think that people do care about more MP, but not so many people do and there are no options, other than more expensive full-frame cameras, like the Nikon D810 and now the Canon 5 Ds and Sony A7r II. Obviously the Sony A7r II is selling well (it has 241 reviews at B&H already), and that is an indicator that people do indeed have an interest in spending more money to get more MP. Otherwise they would just buy the A7 II instead of the A7r II. In fact, the A7r II is almost twice the price of the A7 II, yet the A7r II has more than twice as many reviews. To me this indicates that there is a strong desire for more MP, but people are not getting what they want. I think it's sad and almost criminal.

Pentax needs to buy Samsung sensors. Unfortunately I think Pentax is often a follower, rather than a leader. Look how long it took them to make a full-frame camera. Look how long it took them to make a 24 MP camera. (I think they were the last APS-C size DSLR manufacturer to make one . . . except Sigma, who have never made one.)
Aside from purchasing a DP2M (just an experiment really), all my cameras are 16MP equivalent and below.

I was surprised when I realised I've been using 16MP for this length of time and feel no inclination to upgrade at all. 24MP calls me not one jot. I do plan to upgrade my Lumix G6 to a G7 when the prices/used prices fall to bargain basement level simply for the ergonomics but the image quality is identical to what I have now.

Threads on this forum indicate that people are still interested in ever-refining image quality but this seems to be a minority view these days.
This couldn't be further from the truth. Virtually nobody who doesn't want high image quality will spend the money to buy a big, heay, expensive, DSLR and lenses. The same goes for full-frame cameras. Most people buy those to get better quality, and they are selling better than ever.
Image quality everywhere seems to be sufficient for most people and the manufacturers themselves.
Of course it's "sufficient" for the manufacturers. They don't want to spend as much money on the cameras. They want to maximize profit. It's almost as if they're too stupid to realize what's going on with Sony and their 42 MP A7r II.
Not much pushing of the envelope any more aside perhaps from Sigma and the medium format suppliers.
Even the medium format suppliers haven't been pushing the envelope much. They apparently either can't afford to or they don't want to. They made 33 MP sensors ten years ago, and they have only barely tripled that, when they should have been doubling resolution every two years, which would put them at more than 200 MP by now. The way digital sensor resolution was growing between 2001 and 2006, there is no way that Pentax would have released an upgraded camera that had a sensor with only 25 % more megapixels. From 2010 to 2016 Pentax went from a 40 MP camera to a 50 MP camera. That's pathetic. The crazy thing is that people seem to think Pentax is still a good value. That shows how little pushing of the envelope there has been in the medium format market. It's no wonder medium format cameras haven't been selling much.

A real company (like Phase One) would upgrade sensor resolution more significantly. There's a reason Phase One is doing so well. They are the only company to provide a decent quality 100 MP camera with a decent line of lenses. If Hasselblad had pushed the envelope, they would not be making 50 MP cameras anymore. Instead, they would have a 120 MP camera, which would be twice the megapixels of their 60 MP camera, which they made years and years ago.

I wouldn't call Sigma's step up from 14.7 MP to 19.6 MP a "pushing of the envelope" . . . really. It took more than two or three years for that little upgrade . . . and it really was a small upgrade, when you compare the image file samples from the SD1 and sd Quattro. Finally Sigma is about to deliver a sensor bigger than APS-C. It's about time! Where is the 30 MP sensor? If Sigma REALLY wanted to push the envelope, they would have one by now. It's been five years since they made their 14.7 MP sensor and the SD1 camera to put it in. There is NO reason they should have not upgraded to a sensor with double the megapixels in that much time. They haven't even announced a camera that is double the megapixels of the SD1 yet.

"The SD1 was announced by Sigma at photokina 2010 on September 21, 2010. It was officially put on sale in May 2011 . . ." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigma_SD1#Sigma_SD1_Merrill
 
The well-known Roger N Clark had lots to say about pixel pitch and concluded that the "ideal" pixel size is 5um. Old article, Canon-heavy of course:

http://www.clarkvision.com/articles/digital.sensor.performance.summary/index.html
Was that written before BSI sensors, as used in the A7r2, became regular products ?

To me, the ideal pixel width is about one third of the width of the Airy disc produced by diffraction in the best lens available. The lens should be the limiting factor in the chain, not the sensor.

I think what is holding back progress is the processing chips, speed of memory cards, and the speed of the average buyer's computer. There is a big demand for cameras to be able to shoot rapid sequences, and 4K or even 8K video.
 
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The well-known Roger N Clark had lots to say about pixel pitch and concluded that the "ideal" pixel size is 5um. Old article, Canon-heavy of course:

http://www.clarkvision.com/articles/digital.sensor.performance.summary/index.html
Was that written before BSI sensors, as used in the A7r2, became regular products ?
At the bottom of the page it says:

"This page URL: http://www.clarkvision.com/articles/digital.sensor.performance.summary

First published November 16, 2006.
Last updated October 14, 2016."

Whether that predates BSI or not, I don't know.
To me, the ideal pixel width is about one third of the width of the Airy disc produced by diffraction in the best lens available.
My favorite pedantry for that is 1/(2*sqrt(2)). And at 380nm of course. ;-)
The lens should be the limiting factor in the chain, not the sensor.
Indeed.
I think what is holding back progress is the processing chips, speed of memory cards, and the speed of the average buyer's computer. There is a big demand for cameras to be able to shoot rapid sequences, and 4K or even 8K video.
--
"What we've got hyah is Failyah to Communicate": 'Cool Hand Luke' 1967.
Ted
 
Last edited:
The A77 came out more than 5 years ago offering 24MP in a "cropped" sensor. This is now the entry level in APS-C. It is also the top end.
Yes, very interesting, isn't it? If the sensor is supposed to be the expensive part, why do high-end DSLR cameras still cost so much? Why don't they all cost about $200 to $300? I see no reason the "new" Nikon D500, with its 20 MP sensor, should cost $2,000 or even $1,000. Sony sold the A77 for $800 three years ago. Both shoot fast (though the A77 could shoot faster than today's new Nikon D500 can). Both have high quality screens on the back. Both are weather sealed. Nikon and Canon are somehow successfully fleecing photographers, and for some reason neither Sony or Pentax seem to have a significant affect on their prices.
Interesting. Basically, current cameras offer only one MP count.
Actually it's two - 24 MP and 20 MP (i.e. the new Canon 7 D Mk II and the new Nikon D500).
Why is this, I wonder? Is 24MP simply the practical limit (seems unlikely given that phones and compacts have higher pixel densities).
No, it is not the practical limit, because there is very good image quality produce with cameras that have sensors with far greater density (i.e. the 20 MP 1" sensors in the Panasonic FZ1000 and their ilk, as well as the Sony cameras with their 1" sensors). Even Nikon's 1" sensor of the V3, which is 18 MP, has a far greater density than a 24 MP APS-C sensor. The image quality from those cameras is excellent . . . though their lenses are purpose built.
Or is it that people simply don't care any more and more MP doesn't sell?
I think that people do care about more MP, but not so many people do and there are no options, other than more expensive full-frame cameras, like the Nikon D810 and now the Canon 5 Ds and Sony A7r II. Obviously the Sony A7r II is selling well (it has 241 reviews at B&H already), and that is an indicator that people do indeed have an interest in spending more money to get more MP. Otherwise they would just buy the A7 II instead of the A7r II. In fact, the A7r II is almost twice the price of the A7 II, yet the A7r II has more than twice as many reviews. To me this indicates that there is a strong desire for more MP, but people are not getting what they want. I think it's sad and almost criminal.

Pentax needs to buy Samsung sensors. Unfortunately I think Pentax is often a follower, rather than a leader. Look how long it took them to make a full-frame camera. Look how long it took them to make a 24 MP camera. (I think they were the last APS-C size DSLR manufacturer to make one . . . except Sigma, who have never made one.)
Aside from purchasing a DP2M (just an experiment really), all my cameras are 16MP equivalent and below.

I was surprised when I realised I've been using 16MP for this length of time and feel no inclination to upgrade at all. 24MP calls me not one jot. I do plan to upgrade my Lumix G6 to a G7 when the prices/used prices fall to bargain basement level simply for the ergonomics but the image quality is identical to what I have now.

Threads on this forum indicate that people are still interested in ever-refining image quality but this seems to be a minority view these days.
This couldn't be further from the truth. Virtually nobody who doesn't want high image quality will spend the money to buy a big, heay, expensive, DSLR and lenses. The same goes for full-frame cameras. Most people buy those to get better quality, and they are selling better than ever.
Image quality everywhere seems to be sufficient for most people and the manufacturers themselves.
Of course it's "sufficient" for the manufacturers. They don't want to spend as much money on the cameras. They want to maximize profit. It's almost as if they're too stupid to realize what's going on with Sony and their 42 MP A7r II.
Not much pushing of the envelope any more aside perhaps from Sigma and the medium format suppliers.
Even the medium format suppliers haven't been pushing the envelope much. They apparently either can't afford to or they don't want to. They made 33 MP sensors ten years ago, and they have only barely tripled that, when they should have been doubling resolution every two years, which would put them at more than 200 MP by now. The way digital sensor resolution was growing between 2001 and 2006, there is no way that Pentax would have released an upgraded camera that had a sensor with only 25 % more megapixels. From 2010 to 2016 Pentax went from a 40 MP camera to a 50 MP camera. That's pathetic. The crazy thing is that people seem to think Pentax is still a good value. That shows how little pushing of the envelope there has been in the medium format market. It's no wonder medium format cameras haven't been selling much.

A real company (like Phase One) would upgrade sensor resolution more significantly. There's a reason Phase One is doing so well. They are the only company to provide a decent quality 100 MP camera with a decent line of lenses. If Hasselblad had pushed the envelope, they would not be making 50 MP cameras anymore. Instead, they would have a 120 MP camera, which would be twice the megapixels of their 60 MP camera, which they made years and years ago.

I wouldn't call Sigma's step up from 14.7 MP to 19.6 MP a "pushing of the envelope" . . . really. It took more than two or three years for that little upgrade . . . and it really was a small upgrade, when you compare the image file samples from the SD1 and sd Quattro. Finally Sigma is about to deliver a sensor bigger than APS-C. It's about time! Where is the 30 MP sensor? If Sigma REALLY wanted to push the envelope, they would have one by now. It's been five years since they made their 14.7 MP sensor and the SD1 camera to put it in. There is NO reason they should have not upgraded to a sensor with double the megapixels in that much time. They haven't even announced a camera that is double the megapixels of the SD1 yet.

"The SD1 was announced by Sigma at photokina 2010 on September 21, 2010. It was officially put on sale in May 2011 . . ." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigma_SD1#Sigma_SD1_Merrill
--
Scott Barton Kennelly
http://www.bigprintphotos.com
OK but if the demand really exists, why aren't pixels being pushed any more? It worked fine for a decade, why suddenly stop? I still go with my hypothesis that when more MP generated sales growth, you got more MP. Now we have reached a quality level where the mainstream buyer sees no advantage in more MP, won't pay for it, and so there is no pressure on manufacturers to develop their sensors. If Nikon could generate growth again by releasing a 50MP aps-c sensor, they would to steal Canon's lunch. But I would guess they think the investment would not generate the sales and isn't worth it. Instead, they are trying to con people into paying high prices for 35mm full frame cameras where the profit margins are still high even though the benefits (a fraction of an ISO level lower noise) aren't really there. The D500 is also high priced compared to a £280 D3300 which has more MP - it isn't MP that are selling cameras any more.

--
Galleries and website: http://www.whisperingcat.co.uk/
Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidmillier/
Obviously, it's possible to get very good images from even tiny sensors. My 41mp (38 used) phone camera (Nokia 808) takes excellent images. My 16 mp Nikon P900, even hand held at ridiculous focal lengths takes excellent images with a relatively tiny sensor. See image of bunny below at 800mm taken hand held from my idling car out the window. So applied to a 1.5x crop sensor the pixel count resolution could be huge. I suspect the reason we are not seeing higher resolution APS C is that the cost/performance would be compromised. We simply don't have fast enough processors to handle the huge amounts of data in a cost sensitive market...

Best regards,

Lin

Nikon P900 hand-held out window of idling vehicle at 800mm (143 mm x 5.6 crop factor = 800mm)
Nikon P900 hand-held out window of idling vehicle at 800mm (143 mm x 5.6 crop factor = 800mm)
 
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The A77 came out more than 5 years ago offering 24MP in a "cropped" sensor. This is now the entry level in APS-C. It is also the top end.
Yes, very interesting, isn't it? If the sensor is supposed to be the expensive part, why do high-end DSLR cameras still cost so much? Why don't they all cost about $200 to $300? I see no reason the "new" Nikon D500, with its 20 MP sensor, should cost $2,000 or even $1,000. Sony sold the A77 for $800 three years ago. Both shoot fast (though the A77 could shoot faster than today's new Nikon D500 can). Both have high quality screens on the back. Both are weather sealed. Nikon and Canon are somehow successfully fleecing photographers, and for some reason neither Sony or Pentax seem to have a significant affect on their prices.
Interesting. Basically, current cameras offer only one MP count.
Actually it's two - 24 MP and 20 MP (i.e. the new Canon 7 D Mk II and the new Nikon D500).
Why is this, I wonder? Is 24MP simply the practical limit (seems unlikely given that phones and compacts have higher pixel densities).
No, it is not the practical limit, because there is very good image quality produce with cameras that have sensors with far greater density (i.e. the 20 MP 1" sensors in the Panasonic FZ1000 and their ilk, as well as the Sony cameras with their 1" sensors). Even Nikon's 1" sensor of the V3, which is 18 MP, has a far greater density than a 24 MP APS-C sensor. The image quality from those cameras is excellent . . . though their lenses are purpose built.
Or is it that people simply don't care any more and more MP doesn't sell?
I think that people do care about more MP, but not so many people do and there are no options, other than more expensive full-frame cameras, like the Nikon D810 and now the Canon 5 Ds and Sony A7r II. Obviously the Sony A7r II is selling well (it has 241 reviews at B&H already), and that is an indicator that people do indeed have an interest in spending more money to get more MP. Otherwise they would just buy the A7 II instead of the A7r II. In fact, the A7r II is almost twice the price of the A7 II, yet the A7r II has more than twice as many reviews. To me this indicates that there is a strong desire for more MP, but people are not getting what they want. I think it's sad and almost criminal.

Pentax needs to buy Samsung sensors. Unfortunately I think Pentax is often a follower, rather than a leader. Look how long it took them to make a full-frame camera. Look how long it took them to make a 24 MP camera. (I think they were the last APS-C size DSLR manufacturer to make one . . . except Sigma, who have never made one.)
Aside from purchasing a DP2M (just an experiment really), all my cameras are 16MP equivalent and below.

I was surprised when I realised I've been using 16MP for this length of time and feel no inclination to upgrade at all. 24MP calls me not one jot. I do plan to upgrade my Lumix G6 to a G7 when the prices/used prices fall to bargain basement level simply for the ergonomics but the image quality is identical to what I have now.

Threads on this forum indicate that people are still interested in ever-refining image quality but this seems to be a minority view these days.
This couldn't be further from the truth. Virtually nobody who doesn't want high image quality will spend the money to buy a big, heay, expensive, DSLR and lenses. The same goes for full-frame cameras. Most people buy those to get better quality, and they are selling better than ever.
Image quality everywhere seems to be sufficient for most people and the manufacturers themselves.
Of course it's "sufficient" for the manufacturers. They don't want to spend as much money on the cameras. They want to maximize profit. It's almost as if they're too stupid to realize what's going on with Sony and their 42 MP A7r II.
Not much pushing of the envelope any more aside perhaps from Sigma and the medium format suppliers.
Even the medium format suppliers haven't been pushing the envelope much. They apparently either can't afford to or they don't want to. They made 33 MP sensors ten years ago, and they have only barely tripled that, when they should have been doubling resolution every two years, which would put them at more than 200 MP by now. The way digital sensor resolution was growing between 2001 and 2006, there is no way that Pentax would have released an upgraded camera that had a sensor with only 25 % more megapixels. From 2010 to 2016 Pentax went from a 40 MP camera to a 50 MP camera. That's pathetic. The crazy thing is that people seem to think Pentax is still a good value. That shows how little pushing of the envelope there has been in the medium format market. It's no wonder medium format cameras haven't been selling much.

A real company (like Phase One) would upgrade sensor resolution more significantly. There's a reason Phase One is doing so well. They are the only company to provide a decent quality 100 MP camera with a decent line of lenses. If Hasselblad had pushed the envelope, they would not be making 50 MP cameras anymore. Instead, they would have a 120 MP camera, which would be twice the megapixels of their 60 MP camera, which they made years and years ago.

I wouldn't call Sigma's step up from 14.7 MP to 19.6 MP a "pushing of the envelope" . . . really. It took more than two or three years for that little upgrade . . . and it really was a small upgrade, when you compare the image file samples from the SD1 and sd Quattro. Finally Sigma is about to deliver a sensor bigger than APS-C. It's about time! Where is the 30 MP sensor? If Sigma REALLY wanted to push the envelope, they would have one by now. It's been five years since they made their 14.7 MP sensor and the SD1 camera to put it in. There is NO reason they should have not upgraded to a sensor with double the megapixels in that much time. They haven't even announced a camera that is double the megapixels of the SD1 yet.

"The SD1 was announced by Sigma at photokina 2010 on September 21, 2010. It was officially put on sale in May 2011 . . ." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigma_SD1#Sigma_SD1_Merrill
 
The A77 came out more than 5 years ago offering 24MP in a "cropped" sensor. This is now the entry level in APS-C. It is also the top end.
Yes, very interesting, isn't it? If the sensor is supposed to be the expensive part, why do high-end DSLR cameras still cost so much? Why don't they all cost about $200 to $300? I see no reason the "new" Nikon D500, with its 20 MP sensor, should cost $2,000 or even $1,000. Sony sold the A77 for $800 three years ago. Both shoot fast (though the A77 could shoot faster than today's new Nikon D500 can). Both have high quality screens on the back. Both are weather sealed. Nikon and Canon are somehow successfully fleecing photographers, and for some reason neither Sony or Pentax seem to have a significant affect on their prices.
Interesting. Basically, current cameras offer only one MP count.
Actually it's two - 24 MP and 20 MP (i.e. the new Canon 7 D Mk II and the new Nikon D500).
Why is this, I wonder? Is 24MP simply the practical limit (seems unlikely given that phones and compacts have higher pixel densities).
No, it is not the practical limit, because there is very good image quality produce with cameras that have sensors with far greater density (i.e. the 20 MP 1" sensors in the Panasonic FZ1000 and their ilk, as well as the Sony cameras with their 1" sensors). Even Nikon's 1" sensor of the V3, which is 18 MP, has a far greater density than a 24 MP APS-C sensor. The image quality from those cameras is excellent . . . though their lenses are purpose built.
Or is it that people simply don't care any more and more MP doesn't sell?
I think that people do care about more MP, but not so many people do and there are no options, other than more expensive full-frame cameras, like the Nikon D810 and now the Canon 5 Ds and Sony A7r II. Obviously the Sony A7r II is selling well (it has 241 reviews at B&H already), and that is an indicator that people do indeed have an interest in spending more money to get more MP. Otherwise they would just buy the A7 II instead of the A7r II. In fact, the A7r II is almost twice the price of the A7 II, yet the A7r II has more than twice as many reviews. To me this indicates that there is a strong desire for more MP, but people are not getting what they want. I think it's sad and almost criminal.

Pentax needs to buy Samsung sensors. Unfortunately I think Pentax is often a follower, rather than a leader. Look how long it took them to make a full-frame camera. Look how long it took them to make a 24 MP camera. (I think they were the last APS-C size DSLR manufacturer to make one . . . except Sigma, who have never made one.)
Aside from purchasing a DP2M (just an experiment really), all my cameras are 16MP equivalent and below.

I was surprised when I realised I've been using 16MP for this length of time and feel no inclination to upgrade at all. 24MP calls me not one jot. I do plan to upgrade my Lumix G6 to a G7 when the prices/used prices fall to bargain basement level simply for the ergonomics but the image quality is identical to what I have now.

Threads on this forum indicate that people are still interested in ever-refining image quality but this seems to be a minority view these days.
This couldn't be further from the truth. Virtually nobody who doesn't want high image quality will spend the money to buy a big, heay, expensive, DSLR and lenses. The same goes for full-frame cameras. Most people buy those to get better quality, and they are selling better than ever.
Image quality everywhere seems to be sufficient for most people and the manufacturers themselves.
Of course it's "sufficient" for the manufacturers. They don't want to spend as much money on the cameras. They want to maximize profit. It's almost as if they're too stupid to realize what's going on with Sony and their 42 MP A7r II.
Not much pushing of the envelope any more aside perhaps from Sigma and the medium format suppliers.
Even the medium format suppliers haven't been pushing the envelope much. They apparently either can't afford to or they don't want to. They made 33 MP sensors ten years ago, and they have only barely tripled that, when they should have been doubling resolution every two years, which would put them at more than 200 MP by now. The way digital sensor resolution was growing between 2001 and 2006, there is no way that Pentax would have released an upgraded camera that had a sensor with only 25 % more megapixels. From 2010 to 2016 Pentax went from a 40 MP camera to a 50 MP camera. That's pathetic. The crazy thing is that people seem to think Pentax is still a good value. That shows how little pushing of the envelope there has been in the medium format market. It's no wonder medium format cameras haven't been selling much.

A real company (like Phase One) would upgrade sensor resolution more significantly. There's a reason Phase One is doing so well. They are the only company to provide a decent quality 100 MP camera with a decent line of lenses. If Hasselblad had pushed the envelope, they would not be making 50 MP cameras anymore. Instead, they would have a 120 MP camera, which would be twice the megapixels of their 60 MP camera, which they made years and years ago.

I wouldn't call Sigma's step up from 14.7 MP to 19.6 MP a "pushing of the envelope" . . . really. It took more than two or three years for that little upgrade . . . and it really was a small upgrade, when you compare the image file samples from the SD1 and sd Quattro. Finally Sigma is about to deliver a sensor bigger than APS-C. It's about time! Where is the 30 MP sensor? If Sigma REALLY wanted to push the envelope, they would have one by now. It's been five years since they made their 14.7 MP sensor and the SD1 camera to put it in. There is NO reason they should have not upgraded to a sensor with double the megapixels in that much time. They haven't even announced a camera that is double the megapixels of the SD1 yet.

"The SD1 was announced by Sigma at photokina 2010 on September 21, 2010. It was officially put on sale in May 2011 . . ." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigma_SD1#Sigma_SD1_Merrill
--
Scott Barton Kennelly
http://www.bigprintphotos.com
OK but if the demand really exists, why aren't pixels being pushed any more? It worked fine for a decade, why suddenly stop? I still go with my hypothesis that when more MP generated sales growth, you got more MP. Now we have reached a quality level where the mainstream buyer sees no advantage in more MP, won't pay for it, and so there is no pressure on manufacturers to develop their sensors. If Nikon could generate growth again by releasing a 50MP aps-c sensor, they would to steal Canon's lunch. But I would guess they think the investment would not generate the sales and isn't worth it. Instead, they are trying to con people into paying high prices for 35mm full frame cameras where the profit margins are still high even though the benefits (a fraction of an ISO level lower noise) aren't really there. The D500 is also high priced compared to a £280 D3300 which has more MP - it isn't MP that are selling cameras any more.

--
Galleries and website: http://www.whisperingcat.co.uk/
Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidmillier/
Obviously, it's possible to get very good images from even tiny sensors. My 41mp (38 used) phone camera (Nokia 808) takes excellent images. My 16 mp Nikon P900, even hand held at ridiculous focal lengths takes excellent images with a relatively tiny sensor. See image of bunny below at 800mm taken hand held from my idling car out the window. So applied to a 1.5x crop sensor the pixel count resolution could be huge. I suspect the reason we are not seeing higher resolution APS C is that the cost/performance would be compromised. We simply don't have fast enough processors to handle the huge amounts of data in a cost sensitive market...
Huh?

Sony made a camera five years ago that could shoot at 12 fps, yet Nikon has to make a more expensive camera today that operates slower with only a 20 MP sensor?!?

I think not. There is something else to it.
Best regards,

Lin

Nikon P900 hand-held out window of idling vehicle at 800mm (143 mm x 5.6 crop factor = 800mm)
Nikon P900 hand-held out window of idling vehicle at 800mm (143 mm x 5.6 crop factor = 800mm)


--
Scott Barton Kennelly
 
Good thread David. I bought a Pentax K-5 about 5 years ago and just have not had any real reason to move up a 24 MP DSLR (the K-3II is my prime example since I have been with Pentax since 1983). I also have two (2) K-01s which have virtually the same 16 MP processor.

I also have a DP2M and DP3M but use them only on occasions. Content with what I have in the 16 MP Pentax cameras plus I have a lot of nice K mount glass made by both Pentax and Sigma.
 
The A77 came out more than 5 years ago offering 24MP in a "cropped" sensor. This is now the entry level in APS-C. It is also the top end.
Yes, very interesting, isn't it? If the sensor is supposed to be the expensive part, why do high-end DSLR cameras still cost so much? Why don't they all cost about $200 to $300? I see no reason the "new" Nikon D500, with its 20 MP sensor, should cost $2,000 or even $1,000. Sony sold the A77 for $800 three years ago. Both shoot fast (though the A77 could shoot faster than today's new Nikon D500 can). Both have high quality screens on the back. Both are weather sealed. Nikon and Canon are somehow successfully fleecing photographers, and for some reason neither Sony or Pentax seem to have a significant affect on their prices.
Interesting. Basically, current cameras offer only one MP count.
Actually it's two - 24 MP and 20 MP (i.e. the new Canon 7 D Mk II and the new Nikon D500).
Why is this, I wonder? Is 24MP simply the practical limit (seems unlikely given that phones and compacts have higher pixel densities).
No, it is not the practical limit, because there is very good image quality produce with cameras that have sensors with far greater density (i.e. the 20 MP 1" sensors in the Panasonic FZ1000 and their ilk, as well as the Sony cameras with their 1" sensors). Even Nikon's 1" sensor of the V3, which is 18 MP, has a far greater density than a 24 MP APS-C sensor. The image quality from those cameras is excellent . . . though their lenses are purpose built.
Or is it that people simply don't care any more and more MP doesn't sell?
I think that people do care about more MP, but not so many people do and there are no options, other than more expensive full-frame cameras, like the Nikon D810 and now the Canon 5 Ds and Sony A7r II. Obviously the Sony A7r II is selling well (it has 241 reviews at B&H already), and that is an indicator that people do indeed have an interest in spending more money to get more MP. Otherwise they would just buy the A7 II instead of the A7r II. In fact, the A7r II is almost twice the price of the A7 II, yet the A7r II has more than twice as many reviews. To me this indicates that there is a strong desire for more MP, but people are not getting what they want. I think it's sad and almost criminal.

Pentax needs to buy Samsung sensors. Unfortunately I think Pentax is often a follower, rather than a leader. Look how long it took them to make a full-frame camera. Look how long it took them to make a 24 MP camera. (I think they were the last APS-C size DSLR manufacturer to make one . . . except Sigma, who have never made one.)
Aside from purchasing a DP2M (just an experiment really), all my cameras are 16MP equivalent and below.

I was surprised when I realised I've been using 16MP for this length of time and feel no inclination to upgrade at all. 24MP calls me not one jot. I do plan to upgrade my Lumix G6 to a G7 when the prices/used prices fall to bargain basement level simply for the ergonomics but the image quality is identical to what I have now.

Threads on this forum indicate that people are still interested in ever-refining image quality but this seems to be a minority view these days.
This couldn't be further from the truth. Virtually nobody who doesn't want high image quality will spend the money to buy a big, heay, expensive, DSLR and lenses. The same goes for full-frame cameras. Most people buy those to get better quality, and they are selling better than ever.
Image quality everywhere seems to be sufficient for most people and the manufacturers themselves.
Of course it's "sufficient" for the manufacturers. They don't want to spend as much money on the cameras. They want to maximize profit. It's almost as if they're too stupid to realize what's going on with Sony and their 42 MP A7r II.
Not much pushing of the envelope any more aside perhaps from Sigma and the medium format suppliers.
Even the medium format suppliers haven't been pushing the envelope much. They apparently either can't afford to or they don't want to. They made 33 MP sensors ten years ago, and they have only barely tripled that, when they should have been doubling resolution every two years, which would put them at more than 200 MP by now. The way digital sensor resolution was growing between 2001 and 2006, there is no way that Pentax would have released an upgraded camera that had a sensor with only 25 % more megapixels. From 2010 to 2016 Pentax went from a 40 MP camera to a 50 MP camera. That's pathetic. The crazy thing is that people seem to think Pentax is still a good value. That shows how little pushing of the envelope there has been in the medium format market. It's no wonder medium format cameras haven't been selling much.

A real company (like Phase One) would upgrade sensor resolution more significantly. There's a reason Phase One is doing so well. They are the only company to provide a decent quality 100 MP camera with a decent line of lenses. If Hasselblad had pushed the envelope, they would not be making 50 MP cameras anymore. Instead, they would have a 120 MP camera, which would be twice the megapixels of their 60 MP camera, which they made years and years ago.

I wouldn't call Sigma's step up from 14.7 MP to 19.6 MP a "pushing of the envelope" . . . really. It took more than two or three years for that little upgrade . . . and it really was a small upgrade, when you compare the image file samples from the SD1 and sd Quattro. Finally Sigma is about to deliver a sensor bigger than APS-C. It's about time! Where is the 30 MP sensor? If Sigma REALLY wanted to push the envelope, they would have one by now. It's been five years since they made their 14.7 MP sensor and the SD1 camera to put it in. There is NO reason they should have not upgraded to a sensor with double the megapixels in that much time. They haven't even announced a camera that is double the megapixels of the SD1 yet.

"The SD1 was announced by Sigma at photokina 2010 on September 21, 2010. It was officially put on sale in May 2011 . . ." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigma_SD1#Sigma_SD1_Merrill
 
Good thread David. I bought a Pentax K-5 about 5 years ago and just have not had any real reason to move up a 24 MP DSLR (the K-3II is my prime example since I have been with Pentax since 1983). I also have two (2) K-01s which have virtually the same 16 MP processor.

I also have a DP2M and DP3M but use them only on occasions. Content with what I have in the 16 MP Pentax cameras plus I have a lot of nice K mount glass made by both Pentax and Sigma.
 
The ASP-C sensor is 24x16mm (384 mm^2) +/- (and the FF is 36x24 (864 mm^2). The pixel density of a 24 mp ASP-C is 62,500 pixels/mm^2 +/-. The pixel density of a 36 mp FF is 41,667 pixels/mm^2 +/-. A 50 mp FF is 57,870 pixels/mm^2 +/- which is less dense than a 24 mp ASP-C sensor. A FF with the same density as a 24 mp ASP-C would be 54 mp.

There is always a trade off with pixel density and noise and pixel density and dynamic range. In these respects bigger pixels are better. Given that the push today is lower noise and higher ISO and higher dynamic range I expect I expect that is the push today by the foundries - especially Sony over pixel density.

So we may have very well reached plateau in pixel density. In reality today's 24 mp sensors produce amazing images - probably comparable to 6x7 film. Now to get better sensitivity and noise performance so the low light and dynamic range performance can be enhanced.

Truman
 

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