Camera Choices - No look shooting, day and night

I was talking about shutter noise Ant, not image noise (not that image noise really bothers me)
lol..

shutter noise, I use a FM3a with a motor drive that sound like the London Symphony Orchestra ...on the day the council did road-works outside with jackhammers.

I also have a Mamiya RB67 that sound like the London Symphony Orchestra ...on the day someone blew up the rubbish bins outside ...with explosives.

Once I snapped a Canon photographer in the street with my D700, I almost had the lens on his shoulder and he still didn't hear it. Only the photographer hears it.

I never understood this conversation in street photography, I take a shot it clicks and it doesn't matter, the shot is taken, its all over and no one was hurt.

I don't get it, unless you take lots of photos or use burst or multiple shots and then I would say they are not a Street Photographer, instead, I would say they are hopeless at Street Photography ..and own a noisy camera
The in thing now is these silent electronic shutters, I just don`t get this at all for street but some think its the best thing since sliced bread, I guess these people also recommend dressing up all in all black like ninja`s as well.
the black ninja ...that one with no hair, whatzisname, the American. He does that, I think he even wears a black turtleneck. I knew a street tog once here on dpr that said it was important to wear a suit ...made him respectable he said (grin)

I have to buy a new black shirt tho, I have a thing I have to photograph, a window and I cannot be bothered with all the pp my usual clobber creates as reflection. Lyn makes this little ant as a monogram on all my pockets ...will have to get one of them for it too, she is so clever ...I just walk about all beautiful, she does all the hard work.

Is odd this conversation, like none of mine are ever not, but today I have to research purple because it has to do with a man wearing a purple shirt ...and a gun.
Lol purple shirt and gun, got me thinking of Muktar and this guy :)

http://www.derekpyephotography.com/item/hipphotography.html
Derek ...is very hip
He`s just a guy having a laugh with a spoof site, in reality he is most probably a very good photographer.

Lol at this one.

 
Hi Artie, you've had some good camera suggestions and seem to have some good ideas of what you want from a camera. I hope you can go in some stores and test out the cameras you are thinking of.

Out of interest and following the line of discussion that has developed are you going to commit to the hip technique? (Just because I have said I do not like it please do not think that's a value judgement or me saying it's an invalid technique, rather a personal preference only, as clearly stated.)

If so; are you going to continue to do it without looking until the camera / lens becomes an extension of your eye (or perhaps you feel you are there already, I'm not sure as do not know you well) or do you think you'll use a tilting LCD?

Just curious. I see you have been doing this a while after checking out your gallery.

Would you let us know what technique you have mainly been using? Lack of this info (nobody's fault no value judgement etc) and knowledge about your shooting history has lead to a couple of debates.

Also, out of curiosity, I have seen 'chest shooters' in London. They have the small camera with the small prime lens and obviously know from wherever they are standing what part of the scene / world before them their lens can grab. Quite a discipline in itself I reckon and not a bad skill to have. But they have the camera just kind of where a man's sternum is and I've noticed it is usually resting on or half hidden by a newspaper so when they press the shutter or adjust the camera position it looks like they're fiddling with the newspaper etc.
Lol you sound like these 10 a dozen street bloggers and self styled educators that bash the hell out of hip shooting, then when they realise what it is all really all about end up eating there own words :)

Shooting from the hip is just another tool in your bag, though not one you can run out and buy as you would with a len, flash etc.
Is this a technique you use or will try out?

Also who are your favourite hip shooters? Post a link, I'd like to find one that I like, always up for having my tastes challenged.

Any update on camera decision?

I'm full of questions today, sorry if too much ha ha

@Jeff, I agree with the knees, it can make a good shot a much better one, if you have the time. I kneel, stand on tip toes, bend, twist all over the place ha ha. No value judgement, just saying it works for me better for my type of shots. I can see with the hip technique though it's all about getting close rather than angles if done well. Those sort of shots where you can 'smell the streets.' Would you concur?

@Ant - why do you feel SP is coming to an end? Just curious mate. It's not illegal anywhere except for Germany as far as I am aware at the moment, attitudes are much less relaxed than in the days of HCB and especially in westernised Anglo Saxon countries..... But why coming to an end? I ask out of curiosity and also maybe I've missed some wood for the trees and have not seen / read something pertinent regarding it. Or is it an artistic statement like 'the death of the novel?' Everyone can / is doing it kind of thing....? Even then no two photographers are the same....
 
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Are you sure you'll maintain a long-term interest in the hip-shooting technique? It's a bit low-on-the-ladder in terms of skills available for street...not that there's anything wrong with the approach.

The fear is, once you've picked the ultimate hip-shot system, you'll graduate into techniques requiring greater degrees of self-discipline. If that happens, having a camera system that can grow with you would seem the wisest path to pursue.
 
Hi Artie, you've had some good camera suggestions and seem to have some good ideas of what you want from a camera. I hope you can go in some stores and test out the cameras you are thinking of.

Out of interest and following the line of discussion that has developed are you going to commit to the hip technique? (Just because I have said I do not like it please do not think that's a value judgement or me saying it's an invalid technique, rather a personal preference only, as clearly stated.)

If so; are you going to continue to do it without looking until the camera / lens becomes an extension of your eye (or perhaps you feel you are there already, I'm not sure as do not know you well) or do you think you'll use a tilting LCD?

Just curious. I see you have been doing this a while after checking out your gallery.

Would you let us know what technique you have mainly been using? Lack of this info (nobody's fault no value judgement etc) and knowledge about your shooting history has lead to a couple of debates.

Also, out of curiosity, I have seen 'chest shooters' in London. They have the small camera with the small prime lens and obviously know from wherever they are standing what part of the scene / world before them their lens can grab. Quite a discipline in itself I reckon and not a bad skill to have. But they have the camera just kind of where a man's sternum is and I've noticed it is usually resting on or half hidden by a newspaper so when they press the shutter or adjust the camera position it looks like they're fiddling with the newspaper etc.
Lol you sound like these 10 a dozen street bloggers and self styled educators that bash the hell out of hip shooting, then when they realise what it is all really all about end up eating there own words :)

Shooting from the hip is just another tool in your bag, though not one you can run out and buy as you would with a len, flash etc.
Is this a technique you use or will try out?

Also who are your favourite hip shooters? Post a link, I'd like to find one that I like, always up for having my tastes challenged.

Any update on camera decision?

I'm full of questions today, sorry if too much ha ha

@Jeff, I agree with the knees, it can make a good shot a much better one, if you have the time. I kneel, stand on tip toes, bend, twist all over the place ha ha. No value judgement, just saying it works for me better for my type of shots. I can see with the hip technique though it's all about getting close rather than angles if done well. Those sort of shots where you can 'smell the streets.' Would you concur?

@Ant - why do you feel SP is coming to an end? Just curious mate. It's not illegal anywhere except for Germany as far as I am aware at the moment, attitudes are much less relaxed than in the days of HCB and especially in westernised Anglo Saxon countries..... But why coming to an end? I ask out of curiosity and also maybe I've missed some wood for the trees and have not seen / read something pertinent regarding it. Or is it an artistic statement like 'the death of the novel?' Everyone can / is doing it kind of thing....? Even then no two photographers are the same....
I don't care if people shoot from the eye, chest, hip, or even their ass, as long as they end up with interesting photos.
 
Hi Artie, you've had some good camera suggestions and seem to have some good ideas of what you want from a camera. I hope you can go in some stores and test out the cameras you are thinking of.

Out of interest and following the line of discussion that has developed are you going to commit to the hip technique? (Just because I have said I do not like it please do not think that's a value judgement or me saying it's an invalid technique, rather a personal preference only, as clearly stated.)

If so; are you going to continue to do it without looking until the camera / lens becomes an extension of your eye (or perhaps you feel you are there already, I'm not sure as do not know you well) or do you think you'll use a tilting LCD?

Just curious. I see you have been doing this a while after checking out your gallery.

Would you let us know what technique you have mainly been using? Lack of this info (nobody's fault no value judgement etc) and knowledge about your shooting history has lead to a couple of debates.

Also, out of curiosity, I have seen 'chest shooters' in London. They have the small camera with the small prime lens and obviously know from wherever they are standing what part of the scene / world before them their lens can grab. Quite a discipline in itself I reckon and not a bad skill to have. But they have the camera just kind of where a man's sternum is and I've noticed it is usually resting on or half hidden by a newspaper so when they press the shutter or adjust the camera position it looks like they're fiddling with the newspaper etc.
Lol you sound like these 10 a dozen street bloggers and self styled educators that bash the hell out of hip shooting, then when they realise what it is all really all about end up eating there own words :)

Shooting from the hip is just another tool in your bag, though not one you can run out and buy as you would with a len, flash etc.
Is this a technique you use or will try out?

Also who are your favourite hip shooters? Post a link, I'd like to find one that I like, always up for having my tastes challenged.

Any update on camera decision?

I'm full of questions today, sorry if too much ha ha

@Jeff, I agree with the knees, it can make a good shot a much better one, if you have the time. I kneel, stand on tip toes, bend, twist all over the place ha ha. No value judgement, just saying it works for me better for my type of shots. I can see with the hip technique though it's all about getting close rather than angles if done well. Those sort of shots where you can 'smell the streets.' Would you concur?

@Ant - why do you feel SP is coming to an end? Just curious mate. It's not illegal anywhere except for Germany as far as I am aware at the moment, attitudes are much less relaxed than in the days of HCB and especially in westernised Anglo Saxon countries..... But why coming to an end? I ask out of curiosity and also maybe I've missed some wood for the trees and have not seen / read something pertinent regarding it. Or is it an artistic statement like 'the death of the novel?' Everyone can / is doing it kind of thing....? Even then no two photographers are the same....
I don't care if people shoot from the eye, chest, hip, or even their ass, as long as they end up with interesting photos.
 
Hi Artie, you've had some good camera suggestions and seem to have some good ideas of what you want from a camera. I hope you can go in some stores and test out the cameras you are thinking of.

Out of interest and following the line of discussion that has developed are you going to commit to the hip technique? (Just because I have said I do not like it please do not think that's a value judgement or me saying it's an invalid technique, rather a personal preference only, as clearly stated.)

If so; are you going to continue to do it without looking until the camera / lens becomes an extension of your eye (or perhaps you feel you are there already, I'm not sure as do not know you well) or do you think you'll use a tilting LCD?

Just curious. I see you have been doing this a while after checking out your gallery.

Would you let us know what technique you have mainly been using? Lack of this info (nobody's fault no value judgement etc) and knowledge about your shooting history has lead to a couple of debates.

Also, out of curiosity, I have seen 'chest shooters' in London. They have the small camera with the small prime lens and obviously know from wherever they are standing what part of the scene / world before them their lens can grab. Quite a discipline in itself I reckon and not a bad skill to have. But they have the camera just kind of where a man's sternum is and I've noticed it is usually resting on or half hidden by a newspaper so when they press the shutter or adjust the camera position it looks like they're fiddling with the newspaper etc.
Lol you sound like these 10 a dozen street bloggers and self styled educators that bash the hell out of hip shooting, then when they realise what it is all really all about end up eating there own words :)

Shooting from the hip is just another tool in your bag, though not one you can run out and buy as you would with a len, flash etc.
Is this a technique you use or will try out?

Also who are your favourite hip shooters? Post a link, I'd like to find one that I like, always up for having my tastes challenged.

Any update on camera decision?

I'm full of questions today, sorry if too much ha ha

@Jeff, I agree with the knees, it can make a good shot a much better one, if you have the time. I kneel, stand on tip toes, bend, twist all over the place ha ha. No value judgement, just saying it works for me better for my type of shots. I can see with the hip technique though it's all about getting close rather than angles if done well. Those sort of shots where you can 'smell the streets.' Would you concur?

@Ant - why do you feel SP is coming to an end? Just curious mate. It's not illegal anywhere except for Germany as far as I am aware at the moment, attitudes are much less relaxed than in the days of HCB and especially in westernised Anglo Saxon countries..... But why coming to an end? I ask out of curiosity and also maybe I've missed some wood for the trees and have not seen / read something pertinent regarding it. Or is it an artistic statement like 'the death of the novel?' Everyone can / is doing it kind of thing....? Even then no two photographers are the same....
I don't care if people shoot from the eye, chest, hip, or even their ass, as long as they end up with interesting photos.
I can see these new fangled hipsters and strobist being a real problem :)
--
Sam K., NYC
http://skanter.smugmug.com/NYC-Street-Photography
“A camera is a tool for learning how to see without a camera.”
-Dorothea Lange
 
Just out of interest jeff; what do you mean by 1. "low-on-the-ladder" and 2. "greater degrees of self-discipline". Apologies if I do not respond sooner, I'm away for a few days.
It's low-on-the-ladder relative to other techniques, because it accepts as the norm the idea that street shooting is a stealthy process, that the photographer is somehow cut-off from the society that the camera is capturing. That goes to a peculiar aspect of the mind of the photographer, namely, how creativity separates the author/artist in the observation of the world in which they record. The outcome: thinking that shooting from the hip makes them invisible and unengaged with the people they photograph.

It was a video on street photography techniques made by Joel Meyerowitz that turned my thinking upside down on this issue. He made the observation that, to be invisible on the street, one had to take full empowerment of one's right to be there. In other words, to be invisible, be obvious and comfortable, and available to the moment-at-hand. That leads to the idea that the photographer needn't be any less visible than those offering a reason to be photographed.

Freed from the constraint of stealth, there are all sorts of techniques and approaches the photographer can use. Really, no limit to the resources available. If you've been following this thread closely, you'll notice a sub-thread dealing with the idea that it doesn't matter what technique is used, provided the outcome is a good photograph. I have a slightly different approach to that idea: instead of working to make a good photograph, I'm more interested in making a better photograph.

It's an onward, ongoing process of growth, which is the hallmark of the creative mind. Even Giorgio Vasari, the first Art historian, notes the difference in the quality of growth the great painters, sculptors and architects of the Renaissance had, relative to one another, even relative to the individual career-paths of the artists themselves. Photography has its own greats; we're fortunate to be able to follow their particular paths of self-imposed aesthetic challenges. It's far more interesting to me to follow how a contributor on this forum grows as a photographer, than whether or not they post a good photograph.
 
I liked the post above.
 
Yikes!

I went away for a short Thanksgiving vacation and all of a sudden, there are 50 replies.

Let me just start with some background, and this is not to take issue with anyone's comments.

I'm 67 years old. I've probably had cameras and taken pictures for about 60 of those 67 years. Starting with a Brownie, I've had Instamatics, rangefinders, a twin lens reflex or two, and film SLRs with multiple lenses, before going to digital cameras. (I've had a variety of digitals too.) I've worked with exposure meters, and developed and printed my own black and white. I've been through a number of the manual focusing systems (ground glass, split image, microprism).

I'm decidedly an amateur. Prior to Flickr, I almost never exhibited my work. Nor did I make any money (I only spent it). Along with Flickr, I put some shots up on Zazzle. (To say that they're not amenable to street photography would be a gross understatement). To date, I've probably made about $15 from Zazzle. I use them mostly in private mode (images that no one else can purchase) for making personal New Years and other greeting cards. (Most could not be sold publicly as they would violate Zazzle's content policies - and no, not because they are in any sense what people would find objectionable, but that's a story for another time.)

Two things have always attracted me about street photography. First is the sense of being in the here and now, taking shots while life goes on around you, rather than taking the time to focus, find exposure, choose settings, etc prior to shooting. (I know it's not quite that bad.) Still, there is an immediacy to street photos. The second is randomness, which is partially due (at least in my case) to not framing precisely, and to the fact that often other characters or activities often make it into the photo, unintended, unnoticed at the time, but captured in the image where they can be seen in retrospect.

I've had these interests for a long time, but they came together with the advent of digital photography, first, because cameras were becoming increasingly competent in their automation of focus and exposure, and second, because I no longer needed to shoot, develop and print 36 exposure rolls, (or have them developed and printed, in the case of color, which I prefer). This was a significant relief for me, not to mention savings of cost and space.

So everyone has their own definition of street and documentary photography, and their own techniques. Cartier-Bresson and Robert Frank may have used zone focus; Diane Arbus apparently spoke to and received permission to photograph each subject. I wanted to make use of automation for the details of the shot (I know of the principles of zone focus, but have yet to give it a try), and both because of my own timidity, and my interest in capturing scenes where there is as little awareness as possible of being photographed (think Heisenberg uncertainty principle) I have gone to hip photography, where my presence may be apparent, but hopefully, my photographic efforts are unnoticed. I have also worked with wireless RF shutter releases which all me to shoot with my finger visibly off the shutter release.

And so, I was looking for a new camera, having sent two to Amazon for trade in. I drew up my list of four likely suspects and one unlikely one and decided to "poll the panel". That was the purpose of my post. Of the five cameras I listed, I got a vote for one (Pan GX85) as well as suggested alternatives including Olympus Pen F and E-PL7, the Ricoh GRD series, the Sony 6000, 6300 and 6500, and the Pan GX-7. And that's all well and good. I would have liked some more feedback from people who do own or had owned the cameras on my list, but I surely don't want speculation from people who haven't owned them, and I appreciate contrary suggestions.

So that's perhaps enough about me and my background. To those who have asked, no, I'm not on the verge of starting to build a system. Time, budget, and the desire to walk around with a minimum of equipment all argue against it. Why an ILC then? Sensor size and resolution. Other than the LX100, it's hard to find a large sensor camera that's not an ILC. Why not a prime or fixed FL lens? Because I want to have some limited freedom to zoom. Am I committed to hip shooting? No, but I'll have to learn something that suits me as well.

I would like to thank everyone who weighed in , and especially those who took some time to look at my photos and comment. I do appreciate it, and I will appreciate anyone else who weighs in.

And finally, did someone suggest that it was illegal for men to ride the NYC subway with their legs apart? It is not. It is a fact though, that men have been criticized for "manspreading", which is to say, occupying more space than necessary on a crowded train by insisting on sitting with their legs apart.
 
Don`t rush into this.

Take your time, go and handle a few bodies and lenses.

Sony, Panasonic, Olympus, Fuji etc all make great little camera`s.

Also add the latest EM10 to your list and pair this with any prime between 17 and 20mm its a lovely sweet little camera that has become quite popular amongst street shooters.

But like I said try a whole bunch before buying.
 
Yikes!

I went away for a short Thanksgiving vacation and all of a sudden, there are 50 replies.

Let me just start with some background, and this is not to take issue with anyone's comments.

I'm 67 years old. I've probably had cameras and taken pictures for about 60 of those 67 years. Starting with a Brownie, I've had Instamatics, rangefinders, a twin lens reflex or two, and film SLRs with multiple lenses, before going to digital cameras. (I've had a variety of digitals too.) I've worked with exposure meters, and developed and printed my own black and white. I've been through a number of the manual focusing systems (ground glass, split image, microprism).

I'm decidedly an amateur. Prior to Flickr, I almost never exhibited my work. Nor did I make any money (I only spent it). Along with Flickr, I put some shots up on Zazzle. (To say that they're not amenable to street photography would be a gross understatement). To date, I've probably made about $15 from Zazzle. I use them mostly in private mode (images that no one else can purchase) for making personal New Years and other greeting cards. (Most could not be sold publicly as they would violate Zazzle's content policies - and no, not because they are in any sense what people would find objectionable, but that's a story for another time.)
I hope we hear it ...love a good story. About Street Photography, lol, yes we are all much loved.
Two things have always attracted me about street photography. First is the sense of being in the here and now, taking shots while life goes on around you, rather than taking the time to focus, find exposure, choose settings, etc prior to shooting. (I know it's not quite that bad.) Still, there is an immediacy to street photos. The second is randomness, which is partially due (at least in my case) to not framing precisely, and to the fact that often other characters or activities often make it into the photo, unintended, unnoticed at the time, but captured in the image where they can be seen in retrospect.
I ask another photographer often about did he see this or that and he never did, not till later, and I love that, is so much fun. Candid here is often because the photographer doesn't want to be caught taking a photograph ...instead of wanting the candidness to be the photograph. We do get a lot of beginners here Artie but we don't get many like you ...old school mate.
I've had these interests for a long time, but they came together with the advent of digital photography, first, because cameras were becoming increasingly competent in their automation of focus and exposure, and second, because I no longer needed to shoot, develop and print 36 exposure rolls, (or have them developed and printed, in the case of color, which I prefer). This was a significant relief for me, not to mention savings of cost and space.

So everyone has their own definition of street and documentary photography, and their own techniques. Cartier-Bresson and Robert Frank may have used zone focus; Diane Arbus apparently spoke to and received permission to photograph each subject. I wanted to make use of automation for the details of the shot (I know of the principles of zone focus, but have yet to give it a try), and both because of my own timidity, and my interest in capturing scenes where there is as little awareness as possible of being photographed (think Heisenberg uncertainty principle) I have gone to hip photography, where my presence may be apparent, but hopefully, my photographic efforts are unnoticed. I have also worked with wireless RF shutter releases which all me to shoot with my finger visibly off the shutter release.
Detective cameras were a thing too Artie, a camera hidden in a bag in a barrow, behind the fold of a coat, under a newspaper ...the perverts (lol). I love the photos they got from them too. So genuine and sometimes you catch the light in their eye but you do fine without hiding, your flickr galley is a lot of fun too, boy, 's dream might be a favourite (grin)you should post a pic here, you have plenty to share and lots of eyes that will gobble them up ...
And so, I was looking for a new camera, having sent two to Amazon for trade in. I drew up my list of four likely suspects and one unlikely one and decided to "poll the panel". That was the purpose of my post. Of the five cameras I listed, I got a vote for one (Pan GX85) as well as suggested alternatives including Olympus Pen F and E-PL7, the Ricoh GRD series, the Sony 6000, 6300 and 6500, and the Pan GX-7. And that's all well and good. I would have liked some more feedback from people who do own or had owned the cameras on my list, but I surely don't want speculation from people who haven't owned them, and I appreciate contrary suggestions.

So that's perhaps enough about me and my background. To those who have asked, no, I'm not on the verge of starting to build a system. Time, budget, and the desire to walk around with a minimum of equipment all argue against it. Why an ILC then? Sensor size and resolution. Other than the LX100, it's hard to find a large sensor camera that's not an ILC. Why not a prime or fixed FL lens? Because I want to have some limited freedom to zoom. Am I committed to hip shooting? No, but I'll have to learn something that suits me as well.

I would like to thank everyone who weighed in , and especially those who took some time to look at my photos and comment. I do appreciate it, and I will appreciate anyone else who weighs in.

And finally, did someone suggest that it was illegal for men to ride the NYC subway with their legs apart? It is not. It is a fact though, that men have been criticized for "manspreading", which is to say, occupying more space than necessary on a crowded train by insisting on sitting with their legs apart.
lol ...that was me, was a suggestion we might all need to be furtive in our future, with the sillyness ..silliness of everything now ...
--
Artie D
New York, NY
www.urbanphotoz.com
 
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Yikes!

I went away for a short Thanksgiving vacation and all of a sudden, there are 50 replies.

Let me just start with some background, and this is not to take issue with anyone's comments.

I'm 67 years old. I've probably had cameras and taken pictures for about 60 of those 67 years. Starting with a Brownie, I've had Instamatics, rangefinders, a twin lens reflex or two, and film SLRs with multiple lenses, before going to digital cameras. (I've had a variety of digitals too.) I've worked with exposure meters, and developed and printed my own black and white. I've been through a number of the manual focusing systems (ground glass, split image, microprism).

I'm decidedly an amateur. Prior to Flickr, I almost never exhibited my work. Nor did I make any money (I only spent it). Along with Flickr, I put some shots up on Zazzle. (To say that they're not amenable to street photography would be a gross understatement). To date, I've probably made about $15 from Zazzle. I use them mostly in private mode (images that no one else can purchase) for making personal New Years and other greeting cards. (Most could not be sold publicly as they would violate Zazzle's content policies - and no, not because they are in any sense what people would find objectionable, but that's a story for another time.)
I hope we hear it ...love a good story. About Street Photography, lol, yes we are all much loved.
Two things have always attracted me about street photography. First is the sense of being in the here and now, taking shots while life goes on around you, rather than taking the time to focus, find exposure, choose settings, etc prior to shooting. (I know it's not quite that bad.) Still, there is an immediacy to street photos. The second is randomness, which is partially due (at least in my case) to not framing precisely, and to the fact that often other characters or activities often make it into the photo, unintended, unnoticed at the time, but captured in the image where they can be seen in retrospect.
I ask another photographer often about did he see this or that and he never did, not till later, and I love that, is so much fun. Candid here is often because the photographer doesn't want to be caught taking a photograph ...instead of wanting the candidness to be the photograph. We do get a lot of beginners here Artie but we don't get many like you ...old school mate.
I've had these interests for a long time, but they came together with the advent of digital photography, first, because cameras were becoming increasingly competent in their automation of focus and exposure, and second, because I no longer needed to shoot, develop and print 36 exposure rolls, (or have them developed and printed, in the case of color, which I prefer). This was a significant relief for me, not to mention savings of cost and space.

So everyone has their own definition of street and documentary photography, and their own techniques. Cartier-Bresson and Robert Frank may have used zone focus; Diane Arbus apparently spoke to and received permission to photograph each subject. I wanted to make use of automation for the details of the shot (I know of the principles of zone focus, but have yet to give it a try), and both because of my own timidity, and my interest in capturing scenes where there is as little awareness as possible of being photographed (think Heisenberg uncertainty principle) I have gone to hip photography, where my presence may be apparent, but hopefully, my photographic efforts are unnoticed. I have also worked with wireless RF shutter releases which all me to shoot with my finger visibly off the shutter release.
Detective cameras were a thing too Artie, a camera hidden in a bag in a barrow, behind the fold of a coat, under a newspaper ...the perverts (lol). I love the photos they got from them too. So genuine and sometimes you catch the light in their eye but you do fine without hiding, your flickr galley is a lot of fun too, boy, 's dream might be a favourite (grin)you should post a pic here, you have plenty to share and lots of eyes that will gobble them up ...
And so, I was looking for a new camera, having sent two to Amazon for trade in. I drew up my list of four likely suspects and one unlikely one and decided to "poll the panel". That was the purpose of my post. Of the five cameras I listed, I got a vote for one (Pan GX85) as well as suggested alternatives including Olympus Pen F and E-PL7, the Ricoh GRD series, the Sony 6000, 6300 and 6500, and the Pan GX-7. And that's all well and good. I would have liked some more feedback from people who do own or had owned the cameras on my list, but I surely don't want speculation from people who haven't owned them, and I appreciate contrary suggestions.

So that's perhaps enough about me and my background. To those who have asked, no, I'm not on the verge of starting to build a system. Time, budget, and the desire to walk around with a minimum of equipment all argue against it. Why an ILC then? Sensor size and resolution. Other than the LX100, it's hard to find a large sensor camera that's not an ILC. Why not a prime or fixed FL lens? Because I want to have some limited freedom to zoom. Am I committed to hip shooting? No, but I'll have to learn something that suits me as well.

I would like to thank everyone who weighed in , and especially those who took some time to look at my photos and comment. I do appreciate it, and I will appreciate anyone else who weighs in.

And finally, did someone suggest that it was illegal for men to ride the NYC subway with their legs apart? It is not. It is a fact though, that men have been criticized for "manspreading", which is to say, occupying more space than necessary on a crowded train by insisting on sitting with their legs apart.
lol ...that was me, was a suggestion we might all need to be furtive in our future, with the sillyness ..silliness of everything now ...
And more loving and caring as well :)

Nice

Caring
 
Yikes!

I went away for a short Thanksgiving vacation and all of a sudden, there are 50 replies.

Let me just start with some background, and this is not to take issue with anyone's comments.

I'm 67 years old. I've probably had cameras and taken pictures for about 60 of those 67 years. Starting with a Brownie, I've had Instamatics, rangefinders, a twin lens reflex or two, and film SLRs with multiple lenses, before going to digital cameras. (I've had a variety of digitals too.) I've worked with exposure meters, and developed and printed my own black and white. I've been through a number of the manual focusing systems (ground glass, split image, microprism).

I'm decidedly an amateur. Prior to Flickr, I almost never exhibited my work. Nor did I make any money (I only spent it). Along with Flickr, I put some shots up on Zazzle. (To say that they're not amenable to street photography would be a gross understatement). To date, I've probably made about $15 from Zazzle. I use them mostly in private mode (images that no one else can purchase) for making personal New Years and other greeting cards. (Most could not be sold publicly as they would violate Zazzle's content policies - and no, not because they are in any sense what people would find objectionable, but that's a story for another time.)
I hope we hear it ...love a good story. About Street Photography, lol, yes we are all much loved.
Two things have always attracted me about street photography. First is the sense of being in the here and now, taking shots while life goes on around you, rather than taking the time to focus, find exposure, choose settings, etc prior to shooting. (I know it's not quite that bad.) Still, there is an immediacy to street photos. The second is randomness, which is partially due (at least in my case) to not framing precisely, and to the fact that often other characters or activities often make it into the photo, unintended, unnoticed at the time, but captured in the image where they can be seen in retrospect.
I ask another photographer often about did he see this or that and he never did, not till later, and I love that, is so much fun. Candid here is often because the photographer doesn't want to be caught taking a photograph ...instead of wanting the candidness to be the photograph. We do get a lot of beginners here Artie but we don't get many like you ...old school mate.
I've had these interests for a long time, but they came together with the advent of digital photography, first, because cameras were becoming increasingly competent in their automation of focus and exposure, and second, because I no longer needed to shoot, develop and print 36 exposure rolls, (or have them developed and printed, in the case of color, which I prefer). This was a significant relief for me, not to mention savings of cost and space.

So everyone has their own definition of street and documentary photography, and their own techniques. Cartier-Bresson and Robert Frank may have used zone focus; Diane Arbus apparently spoke to and received permission to photograph each subject. I wanted to make use of automation for the details of the shot (I know of the principles of zone focus, but have yet to give it a try), and both because of my own timidity, and my interest in capturing scenes where there is as little awareness as possible of being photographed (think Heisenberg uncertainty principle) I have gone to hip photography, where my presence may be apparent, but hopefully, my photographic efforts are unnoticed. I have also worked with wireless RF shutter releases which all me to shoot with my finger visibly off the shutter release.
Detective cameras were a thing too Artie, a camera hidden in a bag in a barrow, behind the fold of a coat, under a newspaper ...the perverts (lol). I love the photos they got from them too. So genuine and sometimes you catch the light in their eye but you do fine without hiding, your flickr galley is a lot of fun too, boy, 's dream might be a favourite (grin)you should post a pic here, you have plenty to share and lots of eyes that will gobble them up ...
And so, I was looking for a new camera, having sent two to Amazon for trade in. I drew up my list of four likely suspects and one unlikely one and decided to "poll the panel". That was the purpose of my post. Of the five cameras I listed, I got a vote for one (Pan GX85) as well as suggested alternatives including Olympus Pen F and E-PL7, the Ricoh GRD series, the Sony 6000, 6300 and 6500, and the Pan GX-7. And that's all well and good. I would have liked some more feedback from people who do own or had owned the cameras on my list, but I surely don't want speculation from people who haven't owned them, and I appreciate contrary suggestions.

So that's perhaps enough about me and my background. To those who have asked, no, I'm not on the verge of starting to build a system. Time, budget, and the desire to walk around with a minimum of equipment all argue against it. Why an ILC then? Sensor size and resolution. Other than the LX100, it's hard to find a large sensor camera that's not an ILC. Why not a prime or fixed FL lens? Because I want to have some limited freedom to zoom. Am I committed to hip shooting? No, but I'll have to learn something that suits me as well.

I would like to thank everyone who weighed in , and especially those who took some time to look at my photos and comment. I do appreciate it, and I will appreciate anyone else who weighs in.

And finally, did someone suggest that it was illegal for men to ride the NYC subway with their legs apart? It is not. It is a fact though, that men have been criticized for "manspreading", which is to say, occupying more space than necessary on a crowded train by insisting on sitting with their legs apart.
lol ...that was me, was a suggestion we might all need to be furtive in our future, with the sillyness ..silliness of everything now ...
And more loving and caring as well :)

Nice
wow ... these really are nice
hehehe ...now you are pushing it.

I watched a woman park in a handicap, I made it obvious I was watching and she started this absurd limp, she went into the PO and came out again and surprised I was still there (grin), she had some shopping to do ...so I stayed close. She had to limp the whole way there and back ...she couldn't do it and had to quit limping

but seeing as we are having fun of disability ....

here
 
Last edited:
Yikes!

I went away for a short Thanksgiving vacation and all of a sudden, there are 50 replies.

Let me just start with some background, and this is not to take issue with anyone's comments.

I'm 67 years old. I've probably had cameras and taken pictures for about 60 of those 67 years. Starting with a Brownie, I've had Instamatics, rangefinders, a twin lens reflex or two, and film SLRs with multiple lenses, before going to digital cameras. (I've had a variety of digitals too.) I've worked with exposure meters, and developed and printed my own black and white. I've been through a number of the manual focusing systems (ground glass, split image, microprism).

I'm decidedly an amateur. Prior to Flickr, I almost never exhibited my work. Nor did I make any money (I only spent it). Along with Flickr, I put some shots up on Zazzle. (To say that they're not amenable to street photography would be a gross understatement). To date, I've probably made about $15 from Zazzle. I use them mostly in private mode (images that no one else can purchase) for making personal New Years and other greeting cards. (Most could not be sold publicly as they would violate Zazzle's content policies - and no, not because they are in any sense what people would find objectionable, but that's a story for another time.)
I hope we hear it ...love a good story. About Street Photography, lol, yes we are all much loved.
Two things have always attracted me about street photography. First is the sense of being in the here and now, taking shots while life goes on around you, rather than taking the time to focus, find exposure, choose settings, etc prior to shooting. (I know it's not quite that bad.) Still, there is an immediacy to street photos. The second is randomness, which is partially due (at least in my case) to not framing precisely, and to the fact that often other characters or activities often make it into the photo, unintended, unnoticed at the time, but captured in the image where they can be seen in retrospect.
I ask another photographer often about did he see this or that and he never did, not till later, and I love that, is so much fun. Candid here is often because the photographer doesn't want to be caught taking a photograph ...instead of wanting the candidness to be the photograph. We do get a lot of beginners here Artie but we don't get many like you ...old school mate.
I've had these interests for a long time, but they came together with the advent of digital photography, first, because cameras were becoming increasingly competent in their automation of focus and exposure, and second, because I no longer needed to shoot, develop and print 36 exposure rolls, (or have them developed and printed, in the case of color, which I prefer). This was a significant relief for me, not to mention savings of cost and space.

So everyone has their own definition of street and documentary photography, and their own techniques. Cartier-Bresson and Robert Frank may have used zone focus; Diane Arbus apparently spoke to and received permission to photograph each subject. I wanted to make use of automation for the details of the shot (I know of the principles of zone focus, but have yet to give it a try), and both because of my own timidity, and my interest in capturing scenes where there is as little awareness as possible of being photographed (think Heisenberg uncertainty principle) I have gone to hip photography, where my presence may be apparent, but hopefully, my photographic efforts are unnoticed. I have also worked with wireless RF shutter releases which all me to shoot with my finger visibly off the shutter release.
Detective cameras were a thing too Artie, a camera hidden in a bag in a barrow, behind the fold of a coat, under a newspaper ...the perverts (lol). I love the photos they got from them too. So genuine and sometimes you catch the light in their eye but you do fine without hiding, your flickr galley is a lot of fun too, boy, 's dream might be a favourite (grin)you should post a pic here, you have plenty to share and lots of eyes that will gobble them up ...
And so, I was looking for a new camera, having sent two to Amazon for trade in. I drew up my list of four likely suspects and one unlikely one and decided to "poll the panel". That was the purpose of my post. Of the five cameras I listed, I got a vote for one (Pan GX85) as well as suggested alternatives including Olympus Pen F and E-PL7, the Ricoh GRD series, the Sony 6000, 6300 and 6500, and the Pan GX-7. And that's all well and good. I would have liked some more feedback from people who do own or had owned the cameras on my list, but I surely don't want speculation from people who haven't owned them, and I appreciate contrary suggestions.

So that's perhaps enough about me and my background. To those who have asked, no, I'm not on the verge of starting to build a system. Time, budget, and the desire to walk around with a minimum of equipment all argue against it. Why an ILC then? Sensor size and resolution. Other than the LX100, it's hard to find a large sensor camera that's not an ILC. Why not a prime or fixed FL lens? Because I want to have some limited freedom to zoom. Am I committed to hip shooting? No, but I'll have to learn something that suits me as well.

I would like to thank everyone who weighed in , and especially those who took some time to look at my photos and comment. I do appreciate it, and I will appreciate anyone else who weighs in.

And finally, did someone suggest that it was illegal for men to ride the NYC subway with their legs apart? It is not. It is a fact though, that men have been criticized for "manspreading", which is to say, occupying more space than necessary on a crowded train by insisting on sitting with their legs apart.
lol ...that was me, was a suggestion we might all need to be furtive in our future, with the sillyness ..silliness of everything now ...
And more loving and caring as well :)

Nice
wow ... these really are nice
hehehe ...now you are pushing it.

I watched a woman park in a handicap, I made it obvious I was watching and she started this absurd limp, she went into the PO and came out again and surprised I was still there (grin), she had some shopping to do ...so I stayed close. She had to limp the whole way there and back ...she couldn't do it and had to quit limping

but seeing as we are having fun of disability ....

here
Not for fun but hate someone being given hard time, its good seeing them out there shooting street as well.

 
All for it. SP is an excellent hobby, nothing like it for truly getting you living in the moment, beats mediation, mindfulness etc.

I kind of wish I liked landscape too, could get lost for hours in the local woods (very large, with lake, not a very inspiring lake though) just searching for the scene, find the scene, take a smoke while walking around and thinking over the spot, the angle the FOV, DOF etc. Trying a few practice shots, yup that's it, now read a book and have a smoke while waiting for the light to get right....

Like Ant however there has to be people....
 
Hi Artie, you've had some good camera suggestions and seem to have some good ideas of what you want from a camera. I hope you can go in some stores and test out the cameras you are thinking of.

Out of interest and following the line of discussion that has developed are you going to commit to the hip technique? (Just because I have said I do not like it please do not think that's a value judgement or me saying it's an invalid technique, rather a personal preference only, as clearly stated.)

If so; are you going to continue to do it without looking until the camera / lens becomes an extension of your eye (or perhaps you feel you are there already, I'm not sure as do not know you well) or do you think you'll use a tilting LCD?

Just curious. I see you have been doing this a while after checking out your gallery.

Would you let us know what technique you have mainly been using? Lack of this info (nobody's fault no value judgement etc) and knowledge about your shooting history has lead to a couple of debates.

Also, out of curiosity, I have seen 'chest shooters' in London. They have the small camera with the small prime lens and obviously know from wherever they are standing what part of the scene / world before them their lens can grab. Quite a discipline in itself I reckon and not a bad skill to have. But they have the camera just kind of where a man's sternum is and I've noticed it is usually resting on or half hidden by a newspaper so when they press the shutter or adjust the camera position it looks like they're fiddling with the newspaper etc.
Lol you sound like these 10 a dozen street bloggers and self styled educators that bash the hell out of hip shooting, then when they realise what it is all really all about end up eating there own words :)

Shooting from the hip is just another tool in your bag, though not one you can run out and buy as you would with a len, flash etc.
Is this a technique you use or will try out?

Also who are your favourite hip shooters? Post a link, I'd like to find one that I like, always up for having my tastes challenged.

Any update on camera decision?

I'm full of questions today, sorry if too much ha ha

@Jeff, I agree with the knees, it can make a good shot a much better one, if you have the time. I kneel, stand on tip toes, bend, twist all over the place ha ha. No value judgement, just saying it works for me better for my type of shots. I can see with the hip technique though it's all about getting close rather than angles if done well. Those sort of shots where you can 'smell the streets.' Would you concur?

@Ant - why do you feel SP is coming to an end? Just curious mate. It's not illegal anywhere except for Germany as far as I am aware at the moment, attitudes are much less relaxed than in the days of HCB and especially in westernised Anglo Saxon countries..... But why coming to an end? I ask out of curiosity and also maybe I've missed some wood for the trees and have not seen / read something pertinent regarding it. Or is it an artistic statement like 'the death of the novel?' Everyone can / is doing it kind of thing....? Even then no two photographers are the same....
I don't care if people shoot from the eye, chest, hip, or even their ass, as long as they end up with interesting photos.
I can see these new fangled hipsters and strobist being a real problem :)
:D :D :D …… Indeed, Paul …. and too many red/black plaid shirts and pretty beards with ballerina buns ;)

Jack
 
All for it. SP is an excellent hobby, nothing like it for truly getting you living in the moment, beats mediation, mindfulness etc.

I kind of wish I liked landscape too, could get lost for hours in the local woods (very large, with lake, not a very inspiring lake though) just searching for the scene, find the scene, take a smoke while walking around and thinking over the spot, the angle the FOV, DOF etc. Trying a few practice shots, yup that's it, now read a book and have a smoke while waiting for the light to get right....

Like Ant however there has to be people....
It can all be good, I can remember watching something about these little kids that were racing goats through the streets, lol I think all the goats must have been on acid or something, it was all very funny, I think the program was about a very young Trent Parke (a lovely documentary and street photographer)

You just got to get out there and make it your own (for me still easier said than done at the mo)
 
Just out of interest jeff; what do you mean by 1. "low-on-the-ladder" and 2. "greater degrees of self-discipline". Apologies if I do not respond sooner, I'm away for a few days.
jeff, thanks for your response/clarification.
It's low-on-the-ladder relative to other techniques, because it accepts as the norm the idea that street shooting is a stealthy process, that the photographer is somehow cut-off from the society that the camera is capturing.
I'm not sure why using a particular technique makes this so. Surely it's what goes on between the photographer's ears that determines this.
That goes to a peculiar aspect of the mind of the photographer, namely, how creativity separates the author/artist in the observation of the world in which they record. The outcome: thinking that shooting from the hip makes them invisible and unengaged with the people they photograph.
Two parts to this. Anyone who feels that they are invisible by shooting from the hip has a problem with their thinking. You must allow that some photographers may not have this mind set, even if they do shoot from the hip.

Unengaged here is a little ambiguous. It could be real communication between photographer and subject. It could be you mean that the photographer has no empathy, or even respect, for the subject.

It also brings up a question of whether the photographer is a participant, or an observer only, up to the point at which the shutter is pressed.
It was a video on street photography techniques made by Joel Meyerowitz that turned my thinking upside down on this issue. He made the observation that, to be invisible on the street, one had to take full empowerment of one's right to be there. In other words, to be invisible, be obvious and comfortable, and available to the moment-at-hand. That leads to the idea that the photographer needn't be any less visible than those offering a reason to be photographed.
Broadly, I agree with this. "...take full empowerment of one's right to be there " is a bit over the top. Just be there, normally, naturally.
Freed from the constraint of stealth, there are all sorts of techniques and approaches the photographer can use. Really, no limit to the resources available.
Yes. Not sure how any technique would help if one is thinking about being stealthy.
If you've been following this thread closely, you'll notice a sub-thread dealing with the idea that it doesn't matter what technique is used, provided the outcome is a good photograph. I have a slightly different approach to that idea: instead of working to make a good photograph, I'm more interested in making a better photograph.
I don't follow this logic. We should all be looking to make the best photograph we can, but if we produce a "good" photograph are you saying that this is still not good enough? This is just a value judgement. Producing what one feels is a good photograph doesn't necessarily mean that one would not strive to improve. Or change.

For what it's worth I'm always happy to see good photographs presented in this forum without worrying about the photographic techniques used. I should add that I am unlikely to consider a photograph as good if the subject seems uncomfortable with, or harassed by, the photographer.
It's an onward, ongoing process of growth, which is the hallmark of the creative mind. Even Giorgio Vasari, the first Art historian, notes the difference in the quality of growth the great painters, sculptors and architects of the Renaissance had, relative to one another, even relative to the individual career-paths of the artists themselves. Photography has its own greats; we're fortunate to be able to follow their particular paths of self-imposed aesthetic challenges. It's far more interesting to me to follow how a contributor on this forum grows as a photographer, than whether or not they post a good photograph.
I wouldn't argue with the general thrust here, but how do you assess, in your own mind, how a photographer "grows" unless you put some value system on the results?

Just being provocative here.
Thanks again for your time. I enjoyed reading and responding.
 

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