Micro Four Thirds for low light indoor sports.

I dunno - is that just crazy talk?

I'm thinking about picking up this lens, and it occurs to me that I'll be going to an ice hockey game in a few weeks...

I'd be reluctant to consider using anything slower than f2.8 indoors, and sometimes even f1.8 can be marginal, depending on the venue and lighting on the night. I've tried using the slower zooms, but subject movement or noise (or both) are usually problems. Zooms are much more convenient when there's enough light, but sometimes there isn't, so what might work depends a lot on how good or bad the lighting is at your venue(s).

LOVE your roller derby stuff!

E-M1 mkii and some of the fast new lenses will take the system to the next level WRT low-light action. Suspect the GH5 will entice as well.

Good today; great soon?

Cheers,

Rick

Consider carefully what results you'll get unless you spend a lot of money on APS or FF gear. Lens speed, the Olympus pro lenses can be used wide open f/2.8 or f/4.0 with little quality loss which means the f-stop advantage might not exist for an APS or FF camera, depending on what camera and lenses you get. A fast, high-quality FF lens with decent reach is HUGE also. Holding up a larger APS or FF with a big lens for any length of time usually means using a monopod. For resolution, even going with one of the 36-50mp FF's, you still need more reach with their lens than an m4/3rds lens, which means longer, heavier. Focusing is a different matter. You are not going to beat a Nikon D500 or D5 with an Olympus or Pentax body under indoor lighting at a sporting event. But, you will possibly need to calibrate the DSLR's for precise focus with specific lenses and sometimes there are problems with this. The better DSLR's have the ability to do that, but it's a manual task. Sometimes, people send them into the camera maker for this.

Another vote for sticking with a larger sensor/system for low light action here. I love dearly my m4/3 system, but have found that I just get too much noise at the ISO/shutter settings required to freeze sction on the dimly lit stages of my favorite dance subjects. This is using the SHG f2 zooms from Olympus, which use larger (and heavier!) optics than most other lenses in this system.

I'm currently evaluating what other crop or full frame system will give me the best results in these challenging conditions, without breaking the bank/having to sell my m4/3 gear.

Of course you can shoot with M4/3, and since this is the M4/3 forum plenty of folks will tell you how to do it. But how hard do you want to work? I love my M4/3 setup, but I wouldn't choose to shoot figure skating with it. Viewfinder lag, slow focus tracking in low light, shadow noise in low light, etc., etc.

Better to invest in something like a D7200 and an appropriate lens for the venue. If you like primes there are a full range of Nikon f1.8s to choose from. If you have the freedom to choose the best tool for the job....

I really struggled with it, personally. I shot my granddaughter's gymnastics meets all last year with an E-M1 and Panasonic 35-100 f2.8 lens. It wasn't that I didn't get any decent shots--I did, but then the handful of shots I really, really wanted were always just out of focus, if not completely misfocused. The biggest drawback in a fast-moving sport is that the buffer can't keep up with the action. Well, that and the fact that the focus couldn't keep up, either, no matter what I tried... and the E-M1 has a whole lot of focus options to use, too.

i ended up selling off everything but my E-M1 with 12-40 lens and external flash and buying DSLR and the new Sigma 50-200 f1.8 lens. The difference was dramatic. I shot her meet last night and, if I had five shots OOF the entire evening, that was a lot. I just don't plan to carry it around with me, but I was amazed by how much better my photography became with absolutely no experience with the camera at all.

I was a little worried about the weight--I'm a grandma, and not a young one, either, but, seriously, it wasn't an issue. The gear got lighter and lighter with every shot I nailed.

I have both Panasonic m 4/3 gear and Nikon DSLR's and its simply picking the right tool for the job. In your case the DSLR is the tool to use. If you need to turn a screw you use a screwdriver not a wrench. If your turning a bolt then you don't use a screwdriver. Good used Nikon 70-200 2.8 VR I's are out there used for under thousand bucks and would handle what you want without continuing to pay rental fees. Also your not hiking or chasing birds in the woods so the weight isn't much of a factor.

Steve

There's a lot of variables to consider.

First is working distance. How far are you going to be away from the action. The 75 1.8 is a great lens but depends on how far you are from the action.

Second you're going to want a 1.8 or faster prime or at worst a 2.8 zoom. Set the SS to 1/500 to start, bump up slowly. You might not need 1/2000 or so otherwise your ISO will be crazy high.

Iso is relative to the lighting. ISO 3200 won't look the same in all scenarios. So if the arena is well lit ISO 3200 or even 6400 might not look so terrible.

if you're doing this just to capture a few moments then the m4/3 should work out fine. If you're looking to print and frame, then you might be better off with say the Sigma 50-100 f/1.8 on a crop body. A friend of mine shots his daughters indoor gymnastics with a D500 and the 50-100 1.8 and the results are stellar. But then you're talking about a $3,000 setup and one he only uses for that specific reason, other times he's just carrying around his Gx85. Otherwise it's just way too big and heavy for everyday use (82mm filter, 3.3 lbs.)

I have tried to shoot some indoor sports photos with my Pana GH4 and 100-300mm f 4-5.6 lens. The results are quite bad and noisy, unusable for my standards.

Shooting video in same conditions is easier because video is OK with 1/50s or even 1/25s.

funkle said:

In photographing my daughter figure skating, I've been renting pro lenses for my DSLR. But wondering if it would be worth while going to micro 4/3 for this. I much prefer using my M 4/3 camera (a GX7, and am planning upgrading to a G85, GH5 or the new OM-D), and would prefer to invest in this platform. Should I even consider investing in a M 4/3 lens for this? Figure skating is one of the most difficult sports to photograph because low light is thrown into the mix of long distances and a moving subject. If so what would be the best bet? Oly 40-150 2.8 or one of the faster Panasonic lenses? Or should I just suck it up and buy a large sensor set-up for this? Sounds like the biggest issue may be AF rather than the lens, correct?

Click to expand...

You have identified the one place where m43 fails. Bad, artificial light, like gyms and arenas, and fast action where high ISO helps.

Stick with FF for this.

Tom

Figure skating is a pretty predictable sport as far as movement is concerned, especially if you are familiar with the routine (which I assume you would be since it is your daughter). For that reason you don't really need great tracking. You do need good CAF ability and good technique to keep the focus point on your target. I am not familiar with Panasonic but I know that my EM1 would have no problem as far as CAF goes, it would come down to my ability to keep the focus point on the target. Because I shoot an EM1, this is the reason I have been looking really hard at the 4/3 ƒ2.0 zooms. Going to be shooting local rodeo this season and most of it is outdoors but under very large roofs. They then light it with cheap lights that make keeping ISO low and shutter speed high really difficult. Have already experimented with my 150/2 and it works perfectly, but is to much reach 70% of the time.

The ability to use the 4/3 lenses is the reason I shoot an EM1. It helps me get around the ISO issue with the ƒ2.0 zooms and stay all within the same system. I don't need those lenses all the time, or I would switch systems. I value the smaller size of the overall system for my wildlife photography and outdoor sports more then any advantage from the other systems. It is nice knowing that I can pickup a lens or two for the rare occasions I need the faster glass.

addlightness said:

and go wider if you can. f2.8 is too slow for me. Here's one that is barely acceptable with 25/1.8 @f1.8. 45/1.8 was too long for this venue. Keep rate is very low - about 15%.


Ice-skating show on cruise ship

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ISO 250 seems awfully conservative. My GX7 retains good detail through ISO 800, 1600 is not bad for an A2 print, and 3200 is OK for an A3 print.

--
The way to make a friend is to act like one.

That was in a well lit baskettballcourt (indoors). Even then the f/2.8 zooms had a lot of OOF pictues. Now I use the f/1.8 primes. I fair better with them but still have some OOF pictures every game (not blaming that on the lenses, the combination with the photographer will have it's effect). It is good enough for me, I have a nice set of pictures every game.

But I would use it in a bad lit situation if I had a better alternative! My advice: stick with your DSLR for this.

Agree with you, Tim and Tom

Camera was on shutter priority and I was toggling between 1/500s and 1/1000s - my first mistake for being conservative on SS and not paying attention to ISO(which was in auto-ISO mode). ISO1600 would have been perfect as I could have stay above 1/1000s easily.

Thanks for all the responses. There are some very good recommendations there. I'm leaning towards trying to make the M4/3 work, the tradeoff being less than stellar images, but not having to deal with a gigantic DSLR tripod setup, so I can actually enjoy the event some.

That said, which lens would be the best choice:

Oly 75/1.8
Pana 35-100/2.8

Both are 'better' in some ways, but in this case the zoom's flexibility would win it for me.

Some techical tips which have worked for me:

Press shutter and fire a burst immediately when focus locks; don't try to 'track' target. Should be pretty easy to do by panning or when subject comes towards you.

Shoot raw, autoiso in manual mode. Use lowest possible shutter speed which freezes movement and tweak afterwards. (Or if ice scenes are too difficult for metering, use S mode with EC to get better shutter speeds.) If you shoot raw, you can always 'raise ISO' in post-processing by just bumping up exposure. What I'm after is that even a slight over-exposure results in wasted image quality. Mft above base iso - margins are small.

Good luck, should be doable with that 35-100 zoom lens.


1/400, f/2.8, ISO1250, +0,83 ev in PP. Not great but OK. High'ish iso in artificial lightning - an acid test for the little system.

--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/elahtine
You see things, not as they are, but as you are.

Olympus 75mm/1.8 or Oly 45mm/1.8

funkle said:

In photographing my daughter figure skating, I've been renting pro lenses for my DSLR. But wondering if it would be worth while going to micro 4/3 for this. I much prefer using my M 4/3 camera (a GX7, and am planning upgrading to a G85, GH5 or the new OM-D), and would prefer to invest in this platform. Should I even consider investing in a M 4/3 lens for this? Figure skating is one of the most difficult sports to photograph because low light is thrown into the mix of long distances and a moving subject. If so what would be the best bet? Oly 40-150 2.8 or one of the faster Panasonic lenses? Or should I just suck it up and buy a large sensor set-up for this? Sounds like the biggest issue may be AF rather than the lens, correct?

Click to expand...

I've been there done that for years photographing my daughter figure skating. Stick with the DSLR and a 70-200. I've since moved to MFT but still occasionally am at the rink taking pictures of my daughter .. now she's a coach! The difference in performance is night and day, both in tracking accuracy and also low light performance. The challenge will get even tougher as your daughter moves up the ranks and skates and spins faster!

Cheers,

JD

If you want to see some examples of figure skating shot with M43...

2016 Finlandia Trophy

2016 JGP Tallinn Cup

2016 Oberstdorf Adult competition

All shot using Panasonic GX85 with 40-150 f2.8 - because quietness and compact size are my priorities, so I don't disturb my neighbours in the audience. Or smack them in the face with a big-ass DSLR lens.

They're post-processed and reduced for web of course. Originals are all JPG-only. I'm sure people with some actual skill could do much better with the same equipment, RAW processing etc.

Image quality is of course not the best in absolute terms, but is actually way beyond my needs given I'm not a pixel peeper and nor is anyone I share with. I view at screen/web sizes, and don't print any bigger than A4. So from my point of view, a lot of the advice given above is worthless nonsense. Especially if given by people who haven't shot FS themselves and give no examples.

At Finlandia Trophy and Tallinn Cup, the lighting was pretty good: I used Shutter Priority 1/800th, which resulted in ISO's about 1250 - 1600. I could happily use my 45-175mm in such lighting, with slower shutter speeds and higher ISOs (useful backup given some venues don't allow lenses longer than 6 inches. It may even pass for a "fixed-lens compact" in places that don't allow interchangeable-lens cameras at all, if the security isn't too knowledgable).

Oberstdorf lighting was not so good, so slower shutter speed, 1/640th, resulting in ISO's about 2000 - 3200.

In even poorer lighting I could drop to 1/400th. I have plenty of practice with panning/action at that speed (and much slower) from shooting airshows - which requires slow shutter speeds to get blurred propellers, so theplanes don't look like engine failure. And actually, I like getting a bit of motion blur on skaters' hands/feet at those shutter speeds... adds dynamics and drama... but that takes more concentration, keeper rate is lower, and I'm lazy these days ;-D

I don't find image noise a problem. If I'm going to share any photos, Neat Image cleans them up nicely in auto mode, after I made a profile for my GX85.

I went to the Trophee de France Grand Prix event last weekend with my new Panasonic G80... that has the same shock-proof and quiet shutter as the GX85, but it's even quieter thanks to added EFC that works up to 1/2000th shutter speed. It also has much better EVF, and better battery life. Haven't uploaded any photos from that event yet, but I will do soon...