Olympus E-3 - NEW* $1,700.00

It would appear to me, that most MFT users want the system to be seen as just as professional, and capable as the big hitters like Nikon and Canon, but the problem is, they don't want to pay the price of a professional system. You can't have it both ways.
Along with that, many MFT users, as well as any other format/maker, could do just fine with the entry level model. The desire to feel like a better photographer by virtue of better equipment is a strong one. It always has been.

Just the other day I was covering the monthly artists' reception where I'm house photographer. A guy looked at me and said, "you must be a real photographer because you have a real camera instead of taking photos with your phone". I smiled, took my phone out of my pocket and said "my back up" and went about my job. I suppressed my urge to say "Actually, I'm a real photographer because of 40 years' experience" LOL
 
It would appear to me, that most MFT users want the system to be seen as just as professional, and capable as the big hitters like Nikon and Canon, but the problem is, they don't want to pay the price of a professional system. You can't have it both ways.
So you are saying that the E-M1 II is as capable as the Nikon D5 or even the Nikon D500 for professional use? If so, then I no longer have reservations about the $2000 price tag but I'd say you're going on a limb that very likely will break.
IMO, an equally weak limb is what does a D5 offer to make it 3.5 times as expensive as the EM1Mk2? It goes both ways.
 
It would appear to me, that most MFT users want the system to be seen as just as professional, and capable as the big hitters like Nikon and Canon, but the problem is, they don't want to pay the price of a professional system. You can't have it both ways.
So you are saying that the E-M1 II is as capable as the Nikon D5 or even the Nikon D500 for professional use? If so, then I no longer have reservations about the $2000 price tag but I'd say you're going on a limb that very likely will break.
IMO, an equally weak limb is what does a D5 offer to make it 3.5 times as expensive as the EM1Mk2? It goes both ways.
 
It would appear to me, that most MFT users want the system to be seen as just as professional, and capable as the big hitters like Nikon and Canon, but the problem is, they don't want to pay the price of a professional system. You can't have it both ways.
So you are saying that the E-M1 II is as capable as the Nikon D5 or even the Nikon D500 for professional use? If so, then I no longer have reservations about the $2000 price tag but I'd say you're going on a limb that very likely will break.
IMO, an equally weak limb is what does a D5 offer to make it 3.5 times as expensive as the EM1Mk2? It goes both ways.
 
It would appear to me, that most MFT users want the system to be seen as just as professional, and capable as the big hitters like Nikon and Canon, but the problem is, they don't want to pay the price of a professional system. You can't have it both ways.
So you are saying that the E-M1 II is as capable as the Nikon D5 or even the Nikon D500 for professional use? If so, then I no longer have reservations about the $2000 price tag but I'd say you're going on a limb that very likely will break.
IMO, an equally weak limb is what does a D5 offer to make it 3.5 times as expensive as the EM1Mk2? It goes both ways.
 
I am sure it is a great camera and worth the price to some people, but it just seems odd and kind of frustrating to me that supposedly a new version of a product ends up twice the price of the original. The frustration is because, although I am quite happy with my EM 5 II, I would have been tempted by more resolution and PDAF...if the price was much closer to the original EM 1.

As it is, it would need a much more impressive feature set than the EM 1 II has to justify the price for me.
EM1 ll is a new version only in name, otherwise it is completely new model, somewhat resembling the old one. So the prices of both models are in fact completely unrelated.

A new version of the original EM1 is the EM1 with the latest firmware. A lot of new features which you get for free!

Camera companies are now using this mk2, mk3 ... naming strategy to avoid confusing customers with too much completely different names, because new models are arriving at much higher speed than in the good old days. But it appears some are still confused, just in a different way;-)
 
It would appear to me, that most MFT users want the system to be seen as just as professional, and capable as the big hitters like Nikon and Canon, but the problem is, they don't want to pay the price of a professional system. You can't have it both ways.
I couldn't give two hoots about how the system is perceived, only what it allows me to do as I explore new tasks with it, and as of today it already delivers the goods--each new generation simply extends those capabilities.

Oly has no misconceptions about replacing the CanIkon gear one sees wielded by pros on stadium and arena sidelines but a funny thing happened as m43 matured, a good chunk of that capability is now reachable with our little kits. Whether that's accepted as fact seems irrelevant, but original G1 and E-P1 buyers must constantly pinch themselves when they see today's gear.

DSLR sales decline as mirrorless holds relatively level, possibly hinting at the coming "normal."

Cheers,

Rick

--
Equivalence and diffraction-free since 2009.
You can be too; ask about our 12-step program.
 
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Seems like a bad strategy. You want pro buyers so you offer a pro body at a pro price, which alienates your base market?

And the logic that seems to correlate price with pro is flawed. I think m43 buyers are fooled by that kind of thing, like they're not buying into the idea of having to have large gear to be pro.
I see. A smart strategy would be to want pro buyers and offer a pro body at an amateur price. Got it.

Last I checked, Olympus sells many other cameras that shouldn't alienate their base market. Why someone that resides in that "base market" would get bent about this camera flies in the face of your "logic". This camera isn't for them, but the tech it will bring to other cameras should make them happy, not sad.
 
...is Olympus's camera division financial reports. They need to increase both revenue and profit margin, while pouring money into addressing user concerns such as C-AF and Low light performance, battery life and even quality control. (Perhaps the wage increase which Olympus says contributed to the price was intended to help improve quality control?)

I think, given the feature set of all the OMD cameras, the EM1 was underpriced. As a result, it sold well, apparently better than expectations, but still didn't turn financials around enough. No doubt someone demanded a minimum profit margin for the camera. Why not? Why it is people "justify" spending 2 to 4 times as much on a Canon or Nikon flagship by saying "well, it's FF"? It's more than that: it's a feature set combined with the "pro flagship camera aura" that gets everyone from first time buyers to experienced pros thinking that $6K to $8K is an acceptable price for a pro camera.

The elephant also asks, "why do you need the EM1.2 more than the EM5Mk2 or EM10Mk2 if you base the worth of the camera primarily on IQ?"
That's a wicked smart elephant, but the sommeliers don't care. They want what they want, and it's not a $1999 MkII.

It's a $1699 MkII. Maybe.

Still not sure on exactly what price is acceptable to that crowd. They seem to know how much it cost to make the camera, so they must also know how much profit should be allowed to Olympus. Seems like something a Communist could get a handle on.
 
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Maitani and Olympus brought forth into the camera industry, a new type of 35mm slr... (Apologies to Abraham Lincoln)

(Having spent 40 years in photography, with several years involved in retail, I've observed certain trends.)

The OM-1 came out when "pro cameras" were still cameras used regularly by pros. The Nikon F series (the F2 was introduced in 1971) was still the premier "System Camera" for 35mm users. Canon was playing catch up with the F1. Minolta and Pentax were working on something to compete, which would likely be as big, heavy and complex as the F2 was (and were in the case of the Minolta XK).

The F2 was built like a tank and had the size and weight to meet that analogy. It had, for the time, a staggering array of features and accessories, including interchangeable viewfinders, a dozen or so focusing screens and the biggest selection of lenses. It offered a blazing fast 5fps motor drive (with mirror locked up). Even though pros continued to use less sophistacted cameras such as Pentax Spotmatics, or Nikkormats, the Nikon F and F2 were seen as the mark of "real professionals" by photo enthusiasts and the general public.

They were big, heavy, noisy expensive beasts, but that didn't matter because that was the price to be paid for pro level capabilities. (I bought my F2AS used from a friend who had it just lying around among his dozen or so Nikon bodies, and let me have it cheap as a favor. I loved the camera and how it handled and operated. But I also loved the OM-1 for its own particular charms. Eventually I left Nikon for Olympus.)

Into this milieu came the OM-1. Small. Lightweight. Simple. Inexpensive by comparison. Fulfilling Maitani's dream of a pure "photographer's camera" that offered just what was needed to produce photos in a small, light and elegantly handling system. No features that would be used only occasionaly by only a small number of photographers.

Olympus priced the camera for hobbyists but marketed it for professionals. People scoffed. No way a small, cheaper camera was suitable for pros. Even when things like a 5 FPS motor drive (without needing mirror lock up), 250 exposure back and other pro features were released, people said it wasn't really a pro camera, even though pros were starting to use them.

But they sold. They sold well enough that by the late 70's, every other major maker had come out with some sort of compact 35mm SLR, in some cases intended for the pro market. Pentax, for example, released the tiny MX, which had a great feature set, some aspects of which might be considered pro (such as a 5 FPS motor drive) but lacking in others. Very few pros who weren't already Pentax users bought the camera. Even when the much more capable LX was released, Pentax failed to impress

The Nikon F2 design philosophy was better to have a feature only a few will ever use, then risk not selling cameras for lack of the feature. Canon followed suit, especially with the "New" F1. That philosophy still drives how Nikon and Canon design their flagship models.

They know today that very few people will ever use ISO 200,000+ (or even 25,600 for that matter) but it's there, and part of the price, "just in case" and because the marketing people know such a feature screams "Pro camera!" in the minds of most people. Could CaNikon lop some off the ISO top end and reduce the price of their flagships a bit? Probably, but some would then declare that they are shortchanging people in regards to the "pro capabilities" of the cameras.

Ever consider that one reason why Canon and Nikon keep certain features out of their lower tier cameras is because they want to secure a certain degree of "must buy" status for their flagships? Olympus goes all out, the price reflects this, and is criticized, just as 40 years ago with the OM1, because Olympus has never tried to go toe to toe with the flagships from Canon and Nikon. Sure, some fans of Olympus want them to, or assume they want to, but I have never seen evidence in over 35 years of experience with Olympus products that they wanted to try to dethrone Canon or Nikon. Olympus designs and markets cameras for those who look at the CaNikon flagships and ask "Is there an alternative?"

The moral here is that marketing image, including pricing, has a big impact on how people judge the value of a camera body in regards to "pro status". Part of that relates to how amateurs judge the value of a camera differently, in some respects, from how pros do. While not immunce to G.A.S., the majority of pros factor in Return on Investment when purchasing new gear. Many tend to hold on to a given model longer than enthusiasts do (or think pros do), because if a 5 or even 10 year old camera is still making money, then why not keep using it.

Yes, there is a pro market for the EM1.2, just as there was for the OM-1.

My view is that if I consider the EM1.2 as an alternative to the CaNikon flagships, it's a helluva deal. If I think of it in terms as "just another enthusiast camera" then yes, it seems overpriced. But consider that the "enthusiast" camera in the OMD lineup is the EM5Mk2, which remains at a reasonable price point for it feature set and intended market.
 
...is Olympus's camera division financial reports. They need to increase both revenue and profit margin, while pouring money into addressing user concerns such as C-AF and Low light performance, battery life and even quality control. (Perhaps the wage increase which Olympus says contributed to the price was intended to help improve quality control?)

I think, given the feature set of all the OMD cameras, the EM1 was underpriced. As a result, it sold well, apparently better than expectations, but still didn't turn financials around enough. No doubt someone demanded a minimum profit margin for the camera. Why not? Why it is people "justify" spending 2 to 4 times as much on a Canon or Nikon flagship by saying "well, it's FF"? It's more than that: it's a feature set combined with the "pro flagship camera aura" that gets everyone from first time buyers to experienced pros thinking that $6K to $8K is an acceptable price for a pro camera.

The elephant also asks, "why do you need the EM1.2 more than the EM5Mk2 or EM10Mk2 if you base the worth of the camera primarily on IQ?"
That's a wicked smart elephant, but the sommeliers don't care. They want what they want, and it's not a $1999 MkII.

It's a $1699 MkII. Maybe.

Still not sure on exactly what price is acceptable to that crowd. They seem to know how much it cost to make the camera, so they must also know how much profit should be allowed to Olympus. Seems like something a Communist could get a handle on.
There were a number of forum denizens who complained about the price of the EM1. There will always be those who complain about price,
 
...is Olympus's camera division financial reports. They need to increase both revenue and profit margin, while pouring money into addressing user concerns such as C-AF and Low light performance, battery life and even quality control. (Perhaps the wage increase which Olympus says contributed to the price was intended to help improve quality control?)

I think, given the feature set of all the OMD cameras, the EM1 was underpriced. As a result, it sold well, apparently better than expectations, but still didn't turn financials around enough. No doubt someone demanded a minimum profit margin for the camera. Why not? Why it is people "justify" spending 2 to 4 times as much on a Canon or Nikon flagship by saying "well, it's FF"? It's more than that: it's a feature set combined with the "pro flagship camera aura" that gets everyone from first time buyers to experienced pros thinking that $6K to $8K is an acceptable price for a pro camera.

The elephant also asks, "why do you need the EM1.2 more than the EM5Mk2 or EM10Mk2 if you base the worth of the camera primarily on IQ?"
That's a wicked smart elephant, but the sommeliers don't care. They want what they want, and it's not a $1999 MkII.

It's a $1699 MkII. Maybe.

Still not sure on exactly what price is acceptable to that crowd. They seem to know how much it cost to make the camera, so they must also know how much profit should be allowed to Olympus. Seems like something a Communist could get a handle on.
There were a number of forum denizens who complained about the price of the EM1. There will always be those who complain about price,
I heard that DPR is doubling their annual dues.

Look out! I feel a boycott coming on.
 
That was, what, 8 years ago?

Never did I hear a cry from my fellow 'Olympians' about the price. I was probably some of the first to buy it.. As I used it for professional purposes I knew it would pay for itself at least 20 times over, and it did... twice my prediction.

Olympus E-M1 mk2 is the new Flagship for the new system. It's $300 more expensive than the E-3, yet it features double the resolution, 12 times the speed, and it's probably half the weight....oh! and yes! It drags almost a decade over its older brother.

Why the outcry for what it seems to be the BEST Olympus Digital Camera ever created?

m43 is a serious system, for both, video and stills.
 
Seems like a bad strategy. You want pro buyers so you offer a pro body at a pro price, which alienates your base market?
The number of pros using M4/3 cameras is certainly much smaller than those using full frame or APSC, but it still exists.

You won't see many M4/3 at NFL sidelines, or at other sports venues, but it still can serve the needs of professionals doing street photography, portraits, travel photography or static wildlife.

But this is why there are cameras made for pros that cover a wide range of sensor size. Even up to those that use 8" x 10" negative film. They use whatever tool suits the task best.

I think there are two reasons you are seeing so many high end M4/3 cameras and lenses lately:
  1. The low end is pretty well covered. There was no place else left to go.
  2. The margins are much better on high end gear.
And the logic that seems to correlate price with pro is flawed. I think m43 buyers are fooled by that kind of thing, like they're not buying into the idea of having to have large gear to be pro.
I think you are assuming that "pro gear" means cameras and lenses used by MOST professional photographers. In this case, it is used for the best M4/3 cameras that feature "pro build quality and pro features" even if 95% of the buyers are NOT professional photographers.

And these will always be the most expensive things in their lineup. They will be weather sealed, built to a higher standard, have faster and better lenses, and will have the features that professional photographers come to expect.

Even if they are used by amateurs.
 
You guys do know that resolution is also increased by improvements in the processing engine, and even increased processing power, not to mention more modern sensor design, right?
So I guess we should think they were previously dropping the ball in these regards. And further that competing platforms are still lacking in this respect.

The early IQ testing already evidences there's no rabbit to be pulled from the proverbial hat. You can rub on the basics to whatever degree Olympus is capable but the IQ produced is still effectively governed by the sensor size much more than physical resolution or the finer points of sensor design.

Not that Olympus has done anything wrong technically here, but their marketing did strongly suggest substantial improvements in image quality that would have brought the platform closer in image quality to those utilizing larger sensors. A convenient notion, considering the marketing need to deal with the D500 question. This always seemed unlikely to me, as the E-M5's sensor employed what is still modern technology, and at a mere 4 years later, things just haven't changed much.

m43 is the largest gear I'm willing to deal with, and the IQ is OK with careful shooting technique for my needs. But I'm not going to pretend that a 13x17mm sensor doesn't directly limit IQ compared to the sort of competition that can be afforded on a E-M1II budget. There's no technology that Olympus can array against the problem that changes that balance, and if there was, others would be doing the same.
 
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That was, what, 8 years ago?

Never did I hear a cry from my fellow 'Olympians' about the price. I was probably some of the first to buy it.. As I used it for professional purposes I knew it would pay for itself at least 20 times over, and it did... twice my prediction.

Olympus E-M1 mk2 is the new Flagship for the new system. It's $300 more expensive than the E-3, yet it features double the resolution, 12 times the speed, and it's probably half the weight....oh! and yes! It drags almost a decade over its older brother.

Why the outcry for what it seems to be the BEST Olympus Digital Camera ever created?

m43 is a serious system, for both, video and stills.
 
Maitani and Olympus brought forth into the camera industry, a new type of 35mm slr... (Apologies to Abraham Lincoln)

(Having spent 40 years in photography, with several years involved in retail, I've observed certain trends.)

The OM-1 came out when "pro cameras" were still cameras used regularly by pros. The Nikon F series (the F2 was introduced in 1971) was still the premier "System Camera" for 35mm users. Canon was playing catch up with the F1. Minolta and Pentax were working on something to compete, which would likely be as big, heavy and complex as the F2 was (and were in the case of the Minolta XK).

The F2 was built like a tank and had the size and weight to meet that analogy. It had, for the time, a staggering array of features and accessories, including interchangeable viewfinders, a dozen or so focusing screens and the biggest selection of lenses. It offered a blazing fast 5fps motor drive (with mirror locked up). Even though pros continued to use less sophistacted cameras such as Pentax Spotmatics, or Nikkormats, the Nikon F and F2 were seen as the mark of "real professionals" by photo enthusiasts and the general public.

They were big, heavy, noisy expensive beasts, but that didn't matter because that was the price to be paid for pro level capabilities. (I bought my F2AS used from a friend who had it just lying around among his dozen or so Nikon bodies, and let me have it cheap as a favor. I loved the camera and how it handled and operated. But I also loved the OM-1 for its own particular charms. Eventually I left Nikon for Olympus.)

Into this milieu came the OM-1. Small. Lightweight. Simple. Inexpensive by comparison. Fulfilling Maitani's dream of a pure "photographer's camera" that offered just what was needed to produce photos in a small, light and elegantly handling system. No features that would be used only occasionaly by only a small number of photographers.

Olympus priced the camera for hobbyists but marketed it for professionals. People scoffed. No way a small, cheaper camera was suitable for pros. Even when things like a 5 FPS motor drive (without needing mirror lock up), 250 exposure back and other pro features were released, people said it wasn't really a pro camera, even though pros were starting to use them.

But they sold. They sold well enough that by the late 70's, every other major maker had come out with some sort of compact 35mm SLR, in some cases intended for the pro market. Pentax, for example, released the tiny MX, which had a great feature set, some aspects of which might be considered pro (such as a 5 FPS motor drive) but lacking in others. Very few pros who weren't already Pentax users bought the camera. Even when the much more capable LX was released, Pentax failed to impress

The Nikon F2 design philosophy was better to have a feature only a few will ever use, then risk not selling cameras for lack of the feature. Canon followed suit, especially with the "New" F1. That philosophy still drives how Nikon and Canon design their flagship models.

They know today that very few people will ever use ISO 200,000+ (or even 25,600 for that matter) but it's there, and part of the price, "just in case" and because the marketing people know such a feature screams "Pro camera!" in the minds of most people. Could CaNikon lop some off the ISO top end and reduce the price of their flagships a bit? Probably, but some would then declare that they are shortchanging people in regards to the "pro capabilities" of the cameras.

Ever consider that one reason why Canon and Nikon keep certain features out of their lower tier cameras is because they want to secure a certain degree of "must buy" status for their flagships? Olympus goes all out, the price reflects this, and is criticized, just as 40 years ago with the OM1, because Olympus has never tried to go toe to toe with the flagships from Canon and Nikon. Sure, some fans of Olympus want them to, or assume they want to, but I have never seen evidence in over 35 years of experience with Olympus products that they wanted to try to dethrone Canon or Nikon. Olympus designs and markets cameras for those who look at the CaNikon flagships and ask "Is there an alternative?"

The moral here is that marketing image, including pricing, has a big impact on how people judge the value of a camera body in regards to "pro status". Part of that relates to how amateurs judge the value of a camera differently, in some respects, from how pros do. While not immunce to G.A.S., the majority of pros factor in Return on Investment when purchasing new gear. Many tend to hold on to a given model longer than enthusiasts do (or think pros do), because if a 5 or even 10 year old camera is still making money, then why not keep using it.

Yes, there is a pro market for the EM1.2, just as there was for the OM-1.

My view is that if I consider the EM1.2 as an alternative to the CaNikon flagships, it's a helluva deal. If I think of it in terms as "just another enthusiast camera" then yes, it seems overpriced. But consider that the "enthusiast" camera in the OMD lineup is the EM5Mk2, which remains at a reasonable price point for it feature set and intended market.
 

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