5D IV underexposure banding

ivanku · Oct 24, 2016

Hi guys,

I've noticed that my 5D IV is showing banding when I lift exposure in underexposed images, but only in particular cases.

If a shot is underexposed by one stop or 1.5, then you can bring the exposure back and also lift shadows without seeing any banding.

However, if the entire shot is underexposed by two stops or more, and to get to a proper exposure histogram you need to add two or more stops to the exposure, you will start to see very distinct, irregular horizontal banding.

Is anyone else seeing this as well?

I'd love to hear more experiences from other 5D IV users. The reason I'm wondering is - is this just a limitation of the sensor, or is this a defect with the early run of the new 5D sensors?

This was also noticed in a review of the camera

Canon 5D mk iv Review - Simon Brettell Photography

Canon 5D mk iv Review by Simon Brettell Photography. Looking at Canon's new 5D mk iv from a wedding photographer's point of view

simonbrettellphotography.co.uk

jakdaniel975 · Oct 24, 2016

I am amazed how you to dpreview have not noticed throughout the review and your evidence that still 5d mk4 suffers from banding in recoveries of scenes with lots of contrast !!

I bought the camera safe did not pray more this defect will investigate if it is a defect of some specimens or all!

Thank you

sorry i use translate

all photos iso 100

my 5d mk4

dpreview gallery

LaszloBencze · Oct 25, 2016

The degree of shadow lifting being carried in such cases as provided by jakdaniel975 is outrageous and goes far beyond what is reasonable. No competent photographer will ever have to lift shadows to such a great degree. If I had to do that for one of my pictures, I would be extremely embarrassed knowing that I had made a big mistake and was seeking desperately to fix it.

Here's an example:

This severely underexposed shot is shadow lifted far beyond utility. Here's how I would have done it:

There is no point to attempting to rescue detail in deep navy blue clothing. There should be no detail visible because the eye would see not detail in this fabric. The truth is that the ability to lift shadows in the Canon 5D MK IV is amazing and should satisfy any photographer who actually is aware of how to place an exposure.

But it is important to be sufficiently in control of camera technique such that heroic shadow lifting is not needed.

jakdaniel975 · Oct 25, 2016

As canon is stingy and does not put the spot metering linked to the af points if you make a reportage and speed you can not use manual mode and aperture priority uses such as the picture against happens the erring exposure ... then in these cases need not retrieve a shot underexposed in laboratory tests !! then look at all the other cases where it serves high dynamic range in the examples I have posted ... you expose for highlights and then raise the shadows ... you saw what banding is out and big yellow stripes? ... I say that everyone has praised recoveries 5 stop when not needed, but in situations where it is needed can not be used for banding ... then I say that it seems strange that dpreview did not notice this !!! and I would understand if all mk4 5d have this defect.

Schermata%202016-10-25%20alle%2009.49.10.jpg

GaryJP · Oct 25, 2016

.... you forget to mention the most significant line in the review you quote:

"This morning I spoke to Canon CPS UK and they have confirmed that the banding seen on my camera is unusual and it needs to be replaced."

GaryJP · Oct 25, 2016

... I suggest sending his particular camera back to Canon.

Try as I might, I cannot even achieve banding like that on my G5X.

I'm also a bit confused by the diagonal nature of some of this banding, which makes me wonder if RF interference is an issue.

Lars Henrik Kjolberg · Oct 25, 2016

ivanku said:
Hi guys,

I've noticed that my 5D IV is showing banding when I lift exposure in underexposed images, but only in particular cases.

If a shot is underexposed by one stop or 1.5, then you can bring the exposure back and also lift shadows without seeing any banding.

However, if the entire shot is underexposed by two stops or more, and to get to a proper exposure histogram you need to add two or more stops to the exposure, you will start to see very distinct, irregular horizontal banding.

Is anyone else seeing this as well?

I'd love to hear more experiences from other 5D IV users. The reason I'm wondering is - is this just a limitation of the sensor, or is this a defect with the early run of the new 5D sensors?

This was also noticed in a review of the camera

http://simonbrettellphotography.co.uk/canon-5d-mk-iv-review/

Hi,

I also have the banding you describe, but I have to push more than 3 stops. Did you get your camera replaced, and was the new camera any different?

Rick Knepper · Oct 25, 2016

ivanku said:
This was also noticed in a review of the camera

http://simonbrettellphotography.co.uk/canon-5d-mk-iv-review/

Well...the author at this link replaced his 5D4 and seems satisfied so far.

ivanku · Oct 25, 2016

I haven't had my camera replaced, but will speak to folks at Canon today

Simon, who wrote the review I linked to, has replied to a thread in Canonrumors, stating that he did get his camera replaced, but the replacement is exhibiting the same behavior, although to a slightly lesser degree.

Forum list

Your best source for Canon gear for Creators

www.canonrumors.com

I'm not so eager to get this camera replaced because I suspect that this banding can be observed in all new Canon 5D's. However, I can't make that claim ok behalf of many 5D owners, which is why I started this thread. So if there are folks who can push their files 3 stops or more and not see banding, please speak up!

John Sheehy · Oct 25, 2016

GaryJP said:
.... you forget to mention the most significant line in the review you quote:

"This morning I spoke to Canon CPS UK and they have confirmed that the banding seen on my camera is unusual and it needs to be replaced."

That doesn't mean anything, really. Every 5D4 could do this (and it seems that at least most of them do), and they would still say this, either because they know about it and don't want to cause a negative PR panic, or because the person or department responsible for the reply has not experimented with the limitations of the camera.

To assume that everyone or every subdivision of a corporation knows what's going on is a naive assumption; most people are there to make money, and do what they have to, to keep their jobs and/or advance. They are NOT a bunch of camera technology and imaging enthusiasts who worked their way into a camera company.

LaszloBencze · Oct 25, 2016

Interesting point. I suppose the salient issue is whether or not they actually do replace the camera. Perhaps he will send it in and their response will be "We cannot find anything wrong with this camera. it tests according to specifications" and they will return it to him.

Having been a Canon user for 51 years, I have never come across a Canon product so defective it could not be repaired. The closest I've come is a Canon 15 mm fisheye which I've owned since 1995. In 1998 and in 2015 I sent it in for repair of the same problem: a loose lens element. I paid for both repairs. But after it was returned to me following the 2015 repair, I noticed much greater chromatic aberration in the lens. I assumed that somehow the lens elements had not been reassembled to specification and returned it once again.

This time they acknowledged that it had a focusing issue and replaced almost every non-glass part of the lens to the degree that It was given a new serial number. They did not charge me for this final repair. The lens now works very well.

I have high regard for Canon's customer relations and trustworthiness.

gimp_dad · Oct 25, 2016

jakdaniel975 said:
As canon is stingy and does not put the spot metering linked to the af points if you make a reportage and speed you can not use manual mode and aperture priority uses such as the picture against happens the erring exposure ... then in these cases need not retrieve a shot underexposed in laboratory tests !! then look at all the other cases where it serves high dynamic range in the examples I have posted ... you expose for highlights and then raise the shadows ... you saw what banding is out and big yellow stripes? ... I say that everyone has praised recoveries 5 stop when not needed, but in situations where it is needed can not be used for banding ... then I say that it seems strange that dpreview did not notice this !!! and I would understand if all mk4 5d have this defect.

I don't think the dpreview DR test tries lifting shadows in out-of-focus areas. Hard to tell exactly but it looks to me in this photo that the woman's face (and her scarf) are in focus and almost nothing else. You are lifting the shadows of her blouse and his blazer which are both out of focus. Is that a valid test?

ivanku · Oct 25, 2016

Whether something is in focus or not doesn't affect exposure, or the possible need to lift it / lift shadows in an OOF area.

For example, what if you use a lens that vignettes heavily, such as the 24-70 II, and correct corner vignetting and want to lift background, out of focus, shadows by one stop? That sequence of edits will constitute a 3 stop exposure lift. It's not routine, but it's not at all crazy.

Mystery Gardener · Oct 25, 2016

ivanku said:
Hi guys,

I've noticed that my 5D IV is showing banding when I lift exposure in underexposed images, but only in particular cases.

If a shot is underexposed by one stop or 1.5, then you can bring the exposure back and also lift shadows without seeing any banding.

However, if the entire shot is underexposed by two stops or more, and to get to a proper exposure histogram you need to add two or more stops to the exposure, you will start to see very distinct, irregular horizontal banding.

Is anyone else seeing this as well?

I'd love to hear more experiences from other 5D IV users. The reason I'm wondering is - is this just a limitation of the sensor, or is this a defect with the early run of the new 5D sensors?

This was also noticed in a review of the camera

http://simonbrettellphotography.co.uk/canon-5d-mk-iv-review/

Although a total amateur, I seldom make a mistake where my shot is underexposed by two or more stops. I supposed if I tried 'hard' enough I could do so but using proper technique(s) seems a simpler solution than pushing the exposure a bunch of stops.

Or maybe I am missing something... I did look at several of the examples posted in this thread but I don't think it was necessarily equipment problems.

Cheers, James

livelong · Oct 25, 2016

you are not trying hard enough.

gimp_dad · Oct 25, 2016

ivanku said:
Whether something is in focus or not doesn't affect exposure, or the possible need to lift it / lift shadows in an OOF area.

For example, what if you use a lens that vignettes heavily, such as the 24-70 II, and correct corner vignetting and want to lift background, out of focus, shadows by one stop? That sequence of edits will constitute a 3 stop exposure lift. It's not routine, but it's not at all crazy.

It certainly affects color and color rendering.

GaryJP · Oct 25, 2016

... And the guy was happier with the replacement.

Really, the person you are answering could have just made the effort to read the article.

LaszloBencze said:
Interesting point. I suppose the salient issue is whether or not they actually do replace the camera. Perhaps he will send it in and their response will be "We cannot find anything wrong with this camera. it tests according to specifications" and they will return it to him.

Having been a Canon user for 51 years, I have never come across a Canon product so defective it could not be repaired. The closest I've come is a Canon 15 mm fisheye which I've owned since 1995. In 1998 and in 2015 I sent it in for repair of the same problem: a loose lens element. I paid for both repairs. But after it was returned to me following the 2015 repair, I noticed much greater chromatic aberration in the lens. I assumed that somehow the lens elements had not been reassembled to specification and returned it once again.

This time they acknowledged that it had a focusing issue and replaced almost every non-glass part of the lens to the degree that It was given a new serial number. They did not charge me for this final repair. The lens now works very well.

I have high regard for Canon's customer relations and trustworthiness.

ivanku · Oct 25, 2016

Earlier, I posted a link to a canonrumors forum, where the author of the article said that the replacement exhibited the same behavior, though to a lesser degree.

i did not start this thread to incite an argument or poo-poo Canon. I noticed a behavior in my 5D that was confirmed by others. I did not know whether it was a limitation of this sensor, or if the unusual banding pattern was particular to only a segment of the new cameras. My goal was to survey 5D owners, "hey, are you guys noticing this? Or, is it just me?" I do not intend to argue or convince anyone to buy one brand over another, or to criticize their choice of equipment or editing technique.

GaryJP · Oct 25, 2016

ivanku said:
Earlier, I posted a link to a canonrumors forum, where the author of the article said that the replacement exhibited the same behavior, though to a lesser degree.

Yes, I checked that out. Thanks for the link. I note though that even there, further down the thread, a guy says:

"Going through loads of images I took with a rental 5D Mk IV last month, the images DO NOT show this behavior on any file when pushed while my personal 5D IV does. I have concluded there is a variance in sensors and mine suffers from an issue not all 5D IV sensors do.."

and later:

"Well, I just got off the phone with Canon. The representative I was speaking to was pretty adamant that what I'm experiencing is not normal."

As someone there pointed out, there is a world of difference between "THE 5D MkIV is defective", and "MY 5D MkIV is defective." And even the title of that thread is a little misleading.

I am interested in this anyhow, and will keep a watching brief. I am currently planning to resell my A7 RII or my old Mk3 body for the 5D MkIV

ivanku said:
My goal was to survey 5D owners, "hey, are you guys noticing this? Or, is it just me?"

This is why my answer was given in the same spirit. If Canon engineers say it's an anomaly, it's worth talking to them about yours.

--
Some favourite pics:
http://garyp.zenfolio.com/p518883873/

ivanku · Oct 25, 2016

I agree, it's easy to get caught up in overly inflammatory wording. And I don't intend to suggest that all 5D's are defective. I'm not convinced whether the banding occurs to different degrees under different conditions, or whether certain camera bodies exhibit it while others don't. I've only had mine for less than a week, so I have a couple of weeks where I can just return the body and use my 6D while the issue sorts itself out if it is really a production issue on Canons part. But I don't want to jump to conclusions, and I'm waiting on a response from Canon, as well.

5D IV underexposure banding

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