Thanksgiving closeup- waxy look

KKJohn · Oct 24, 2016

Took this Canadian Thanksgiving photo, and my sister wanted me to isolate the 3 girls on the right of the photo so she could make a blow up, say 5x7 or 8x10 to give to them for Xmas. That's me in the middle sitting down- no silly- the one with the beard.

But as you can see, when cropped, the girls have a waxy look about them. A flash on camera was used with the XT10 and XC16-50 lens. I think the film simulation was standard Provia, tho possibly Velvia. I took the photo at 16mm at a 10sec delayed flash on a tripod, and realized after I should have zoomed in more. Is the waxy look a fault of the camera, the lens, the flash, the film simulation, or just the fact of cropping? Would appreciate any advice, either to correct the problem or just understanding what occurred. Is this simply a Fuji problem or do other cameras- Nikon, Canon, Sony, etc, have the same tendencies? Would I need a more expensive lens, and/or camera to correct the situation? Heaven forbid, I don't want to change my XT10 which I think is a great camera.

Thanks for any advice, comments.

Ed B · Oct 24, 2016

KKJohn said:
Took this Canadian Thanksgiving photo, and my sister wanted me to isolate the 3 girls on the right of the photo so she could make a blow up, say 5x7 or 8x10 to give to them for Xmas. That's me in the middle sitting down- no silly- the one with the beard.

But as you can see, when cropped, the girls have a waxy look about them. A flash on camera was used with the XT10 and XC16-50 lens. I think the film simulation was standard Provia, tho possibly Velvia. I took the photo at 16mm at a 10sec delayed flash on a tripod, and realized after I should have zoomed in more. Is the waxy look a fault of the camera, the lens, the flash, the film simulation, or just the fact of cropping? Would appreciate any advice, either to correct the problem or just understanding what occurred. Is this simply a Fuji problem or do other cameras- Nikon, Canon, Sony, etc, have the same tendencies? Would I need a more expensive lens, and/or camera to correct the situation? Heaven forbid, I don't want to change my XT10 which I think is a great camera.

Thanks for any advice, comments.

The "waxy skin" problem can be an issue with any camera that has the X-Trans II processor but doesn't usually cause much of a problem at lower ISO settings.

I don't really think it looks too bad here but do think you may have shot this using Velvia and that probably had more of a negative effect than anything else.

You might try reducing the color on this (Photoshop) just a bit and see if that helps.

cantanima bis · Oct 24, 2016

I'll guess they probably weren't able to hold still enough for a 5/8 sec exposure.

How do the other subjects look, anyway? You uploaded a rather small image, so it's impossible to evaluate the rest of the group. But I really do think this is motion, rather than the waxy skin issue, especially since the ISO is so low.

fotophool · Oct 24, 2016

Do you have any idea how large (huge) that crop is?

Of course it's going to look waxy.

If nothing else, you might want to try posting it on the Retouching forum here.

fotophool

Charles2 · Oct 24, 2016

Does this look better? Using Picture Window Pro, an alternative to PS, I added a tiny bit of white noise, followed by a tiny bit of noise reduction and a small amount of sharpening, then brightened the image on the HSL-L curve.

And the smaller you can print it, the better.

If your camera has in-camera raw conversion after the shot, you can see what other film simulations look like: put the RAF file back on the card in the DCIM folder.

KKJohn · Oct 24, 2016

Thanks for your comments, guys. I will try to PP in Lightroom- don't have Photoshop. Yes, I should have used a higher ISO as shutter speed way too low, and should have checked the film simulation, etc. The XT10 was brand new- less than a week old, and was the first time using the camera in this type of situation, so wasn't sure of the settings, and taken on the fly in a party type situation, ie, after a few glasses of wine and port. Here are a couple of close ups of other people in the group and they are indeed pretty soft because of the slow shutter speed, tho still impressed with the way the XT10 handled the situation, despite the OPs best attempts to &%@# things up.

Fotoloco · Oct 25, 2016

when i saw 5/8 i did not even click on the photo. people are not statues.

JamesF168 · Oct 25, 2016

don't conflate a loss of fidelity with waxy skin tones. its only 16mp, there's a limit to the amount of detail your going to get out of the jpeg.

take two steps forward to add detail

shoot faster to avoid subject movement so .. ISO 1600 f2 1/60

see how you do.

jl_smith · Oct 25, 2016

No worries, we all make photographic mistakes!

I'd say the very slow shutter and the massive, massive crop from a 16MP sensor is pushing the limits of what the camera is capable of without 'waxy' (or in this case, just low-resolution) skin tones.

Of course, different Xtrans cameras process skin tones differently (especially at high ISO) so something to think about.

Also, pay attention to your film simulations for sure. Velvia is not the best for skin or people in general, especially in artificial light

Happy shooting!

KKJohn · Oct 25, 2016

jl_smith said:
No worries, we all make photographic mistakes!

I'd say the very slow shutter and the massive, massive crop from a 16MP sensor is pushing the limits of what the camera is capable of without 'waxy' (or in this case, just low-resolution) skin tones.

Of course, different Xtrans cameras process skin tones differently (especially at high ISO) so something to think about.

Also, pay attention to your film simulations for sure. Velvia is not the best for skin or people in general, especially in artificial light

Happy shooting!

Thanks for that. Those were the conclusions I had as well. A good learning experience. It was too bad that I was not able to study my new camera enough before using it in that situation. But we had a very happy Thanksgiving with our "new"(one month old) family member, so all was not lost. If nothing else, the photo provides a good remembrance of the occasion, and needn't worry that the shot would not make the cover of Nat Geo. Unfortunately I won't be seeing all the members of our family in a festive occasion like that for at least a year, as I live in Thailand and most of them live in Canada, one in Korea, and one in the U.S. Just hope I can salvage an "OK" photo from the crop to give to the "girls" for Xmas.

Cheers!

Rand 47 · Oct 25, 2016

Considering the significant crop (and that's a huge understatement!) the three girls look amazingly good. Their flat look is mostly due to the flat light. If you are using Lightroom. try adding a small amount of grain to the image. Yeah, I know it sounds counterintuitive, but just give it a try and see what you think.

Rand

Ed B · Oct 25, 2016

KKJohn said:
jl_smith said:

No worries, we all make photographic mistakes!

I'd say the very slow shutter and the massive, massive crop from a 16MP sensor is pushing the limits of what the camera is capable of without 'waxy' (or in this case, just low-resolution) skin tones.

Of course, different Xtrans cameras process skin tones differently (especially at high ISO) so something to think about.

Also, pay attention to your film simulations for sure. Velvia is not the best for skin or people in general, especially in artificial light

Happy shooting!

Click to expand...

Thanks for that. Those were the conclusions I had as well. A good learning experience. It was too bad that I was not able to study my new camera enough before using it in that situation. But we had a very happy Thanksgiving with our "new"(one month old) family member, so all was not lost. If nothing else, the photo provides a good remembrance of the occasion, and needn't worry that the shot would not make the cover of Nat Geo. Unfortunately I won't be seeing all the members of our family in a festive occasion like that for at least a year, as I live in Thailand and most of them live in Canada, one in Korea, and one in the U.S. Just hope I can salvage an "OK" photo from the crop to give to the "girls" for Xmas.

Cheers!

It's really none of my business but I don't understand why you're cropping the picture.

When you come right down to it, the original picture is just fine for a family snapshot.

The lighting is bad, you were in a hurry and didn't have the camera setup just perfect but that's pretty much a normal situation for most people.

I know you want to give the 3 women a cropped image of just themselves but, in the long run, I think the original picture may mean more to them.

Anyway, like I said, it's really none of my business but I have hundreds of family snapshots/keepsakes that aren't any better than this and even if you decide to go with the heavy crop the image doesn't look that bad.

Just don't print it at anything other than a small size and it might turn out better than you expect.

Have to say one other thing that is a little off-thread: Lightroom is a popular raw processor and organizer but it's still not a great photo editing program.

You might consider getting something, inexpensive, like Photoshop Elements or Paintshop to fine tune your pictures once you've developed them in Lightroom.

KKJohn · Oct 25, 2016

Ed B said:
KKJohn said:

jl_smith said:

No worries, we all make photographic mistakes!

I'd say the very slow shutter and the massive, massive crop from a 16MP sensor is pushing the limits of what the camera is capable of without 'waxy' (or in this case, just low-resolution) skin tones.

Of course, different Xtrans cameras process skin tones differently (especially at high ISO) so something to think about.

Also, pay attention to your film simulations for sure. Velvia is not the best for skin or people in general, especially in artificial light

Happy shooting!

Click to expand...

Thanks for that. Those were the conclusions I had as well. A good learning experience. It was too bad that I was not able to study my new camera enough before using it in that situation. But we had a very happy Thanksgiving with our "new"(one month old) family member, so all was not lost. If nothing else, the photo provides a good remembrance of the occasion, and needn't worry that the shot would not make the cover of Nat Geo. Unfortunately I won't be seeing all the members of our family in a festive occasion like that for at least a year, as I live in Thailand and most of them live in Canada, one in Korea, and one in the U.S. Just hope I can salvage an "OK" photo from the crop to give to the "girls" for Xmas.

Cheers!

Click to expand...

It's really none of my business but I don't really understand why you're cropping the picture.

When you come right down to it, the original picture is just fine for a family snapshot.

The lighting is bad, you were in a hurry and didn't have the camera setup just perfect but that's pretty much a normal situation for most people.

I know you want to give the 3 women a cropped image of just themselves but, in the long run, I think the original picture may mean more to them.

Anyway, like I said, it's really none of my business but I have hundreds of family snapshots/keepsakes that aren't any better than this.

Yes, I'm inclined to agree. But it is my sister's request, and she thinks it is such a nice shot of the 3 women, and they don't get together very often, that it would make a nice Xmas present. But I've suggested that we give them the original picture as well, and suggested she take the cropped digital image to a camera store and see how it looks when blown up as 5x7 and also 8x10. If it looks okay, or not too bad, as one of these blowups, then by all means make a print for them. But, you're right, I'm sure they would also like a large print of the original.

Meanwhile I'll also play around a bit in Lightroom to see how I can improve the images without spoiling them.

Thanks for your input.

Cliff Fujii · Oct 25, 2016

KKJohn said:
Took this Canadian Thanksgiving photo, and my sister wanted me to isolate the 3 girls on the right of the photo so she could make a blow up, say 5x7 or 8x10 to give to them for Xmas. That's me in the middle sitting down- no silly- the one with the beard.

But as you can see, when cropped, the girls have a waxy look about them. A flash on camera was used with the XT10 and XC16-50 lens. I think the film simulation was standard Provia, tho possibly Velvia. I took the photo at 16mm at a 10sec delayed flash on a tripod, and realized after I should have zoomed in more. Is the waxy look a fault of the camera, the lens, the flash, the film simulation, or just the fact of cropping? Would appreciate any advice, either to correct the problem or just understanding what occurred. Is this simply a Fuji problem or do other cameras- Nikon, Canon, Sony, etc, have the same tendencies? Would I need a more expensive lens, and/or camera to correct the situation? Heaven forbid, I don't want to change my XT10 which I think is a great camera.

Thanks for any advice, comments.

If you have Lightroom CC, I would look at this again with film simulation set to provia. It looks like your red channel is being overdriven. Also 16mp is 16mp and Fuji doesn't make a magic camera. Looking at your image at 100% doesn't look so bad but you have stepped it up a notch and it looks like you are approaching 200% which is a lot to ask from a sensor.

Cliff Fujii · Oct 25, 2016

fotophool said:
Do you have any idea how large (huge) that crop is?

Of course it's going to look waxy.

If nothing else, you might want to try posting it on the Retouching forum here.

fotophool

There isn't much you can do about subject motion but General Fractals can do the blow up and maintain details.

Cliff Fujii · Oct 25, 2016

Ed B said:
KKJohn said:

jl_smith said:

No worries, we all make photographic mistakes!

I'd say the very slow shutter and the massive, massive crop from a 16MP sensor is pushing the limits of what the camera is capable of without 'waxy' (or in this case, just low-resolution) skin tones.

Of course, different Xtrans cameras process skin tones differently (especially at high ISO) so something to think about.

Also, pay attention to your film simulations for sure. Velvia is not the best for skin or people in general, especially in artificial light

Happy shooting!

Click to expand...

Thanks for that. Those were the conclusions I had as well. A good learning experience. It was too bad that I was not able to study my new camera enough before using it in that situation. But we had a very happy Thanksgiving with our "new"(one month old) family member, so all was not lost. If nothing else, the photo provides a good remembrance of the occasion, and needn't worry that the shot would not make the cover of Nat Geo. Unfortunately I won't be seeing all the members of our family in a festive occasion like that for at least a year, as I live in Thailand and most of them live in Canada, one in Korea, and one in the U.S. Just hope I can salvage an "OK" photo from the crop to give to the "girls" for Xmas.

Cheers!

Click to expand...

It's really none of my business but I don't understand why you're cropping the picture.

When you come right down to it, the original picture is just fine for a family snapshot.

The lighting is bad, you were in a hurry and didn't have the camera setup just perfect but that's pretty much a normal situation for most people.

I know you want to give the 3 women a cropped image of just themselves but, in the long run, I think the original picture may mean more to them.

Anyway, like I said, it's really none of my business but I have hundreds of family snapshots/keepsakes that aren't any better than this and even if you decide to go with the heavy crop the image doesn't look that bad.

Just don't print it at anything other than a small size and it might turn out better than you expect.

Have to say one other thing that is a little off-thread: Lightroom is a popular raw processor and organizer but it's still not a great photo editing program.

You might consider getting something, inexpensive, like Photoshop Elements or Paintshop to fine tune your pictures once you've developed them in Lightroom.

The new version of Lightroom CC is amazingly good on X-Trans and if you get the subscription, you get Photoshop CC, the best pixel editor made. Eventually you won't need Photoshop any more but until Lightroom can do destructive editing, there will always be a role for Photoshop.

bowportes · Oct 25, 2016

Ed B said:
KKJohn said:

jl_smith said:

No worries, we all make photographic mistakes!

I'd say the very slow shutter and the massive, massive crop from a 16MP sensor is pushing the limits of what the camera is capable of without 'waxy' (or in this case, just low-resolution) skin tones.

Of course, different Xtrans cameras process skin tones differently (especially at high ISO) so something to think about.

Also, pay attention to your film simulations for sure. Velvia is not the best for skin or people in general, especially in artificial light

Happy shooting!

Click to expand...

Thanks for that. Those were the conclusions I had as well. A good learning experience. It was too bad that I was not able to study my new camera enough before using it in that situation. But we had a very happy Thanksgiving with our "new"(one month old) family member, so all was not lost. If nothing else, the photo provides a good remembrance of the occasion, and needn't worry that the shot would not make the cover of Nat Geo. Unfortunately I won't be seeing all the members of our family in a festive occasion like that for at least a year, as I live in Thailand and most of them live in Canada, one in Korea, and one in the U.S. Just hope I can salvage an "OK" photo from the crop to give to the "girls" for Xmas.

Cheers!

Click to expand...

It's really none of my business but I don't understand why you're cropping the picture.

When you come right down to it, the original picture is just fine for a family snapshot.

The lighting is bad, you were in a hurry and didn't have the camera setup just perfect but that's pretty much a normal situation for most people.

I couldn't disagree more. Is the full couch that no one's sitting on an important part of the story? What about the bottles in the foreground? The tripod should have been on the coffee table, with fill flash to illuminate. This is a poorly photographed shot by any measure. How to get the best out of it once done is a separate issue, but let's not pretend it didn't need cropping.

Ed B said:
I know you want to give the 3 women a cropped image of just themselves but, in the long run, I think the original picture may mean more to them.

Anyway, like I said, it's really none of my business but I have hundreds of family snapshots/keepsakes that aren't any better than this and even if you decide to go with the heavy crop the image doesn't look that bad.

Just don't print it at anything other than a small size and it might turn out better than you expect.

Have to say one other thing that is a little off-thread: Lightroom is a popular raw processor and organizer but it's still not a great photo editing program.

You might consider getting something, inexpensive, like Photoshop Elements or Paintshop to fine tune your pictures once you've developed them in Lightroom.

KKJohn · Oct 25, 2016

bowportes said:
Ed B said:

KKJohn said:

jl_smith said:

No worries, we all make photographic mistakes!

I'd say the very slow shutter and the massive, massive crop from a 16MP sensor is pushing the limits of what the camera is capable of without 'waxy' (or in this case, just low-resolution) skin tones.

Of course, different Xtrans cameras process skin tones differently (especially at high ISO) so something to think about.

Also, pay attention to your film simulations for sure. Velvia is not the best for skin or people in general, especially in artificial light

Happy shooting!

Click to expand...

Thanks for that. Those were the conclusions I had as well. A good learning experience. It was too bad that I was not able to study my new camera enough before using it in that situation. But we had a very happy Thanksgiving with our "new"(one month old) family member, so all was not lost. If nothing else, the photo provides a good remembrance of the occasion, and needn't worry that the shot would not make the cover of Nat Geo. Unfortunately I won't be seeing all the members of our family in a festive occasion like that for at least a year, as I live in Thailand and most of them live in Canada, one in Korea, and one in the U.S. Just hope I can salvage an "OK" photo from the crop to give to the "girls" for Xmas.

Cheers!

Click to expand...

It's really none of my business but I don't understand why you're cropping the picture.

When you come right down to it, the original picture is just fine for a family snapshot.

The lighting is bad, you were in a hurry and didn't have the camera setup just perfect but that's pretty much a normal situation for most people.

Click to expand...

I couldn't disagree more. Is the full couch that no one's sitting on an important part of the story? What about the bottles in the foreground? The tripod should have been on the coffee table, with fill flash to illuminate. This is a poorly photographed shot by any measure. How to get the best out of it once done is a separate issue, but let's not pretend it didn't need cropping.

I put the OOC image in to show the original image. I know it's not a great shot, but of course I'm not that dim witted that I would not crop the image, as I mentioned at the beginning that it was shot with a wide angle 16mm lens.

bowportes said:
bowportes said:

I know you want to give the 3 women a cropped image of just themselves but, in the long run, I think the original picture may mean more to them.

Anyway, like I said, it's really none of my business but I have hundreds of family snapshots/keepsakes that aren't any better than this and even if you decide to go with the heavy crop the image doesn't look that bad.

Just don't print it at anything other than a small size and it might turn out better than you expect.

Have to say one other thing that is a little off-thread: Lightroom is a popular raw processor and organizer but it's still not a great photo editing program.

You might consider getting something, inexpensive, like Photoshop Elements or Paintshop to fine tune your pictures once you've developed them in Lightroom.

Click to expand...

KKJohn · Oct 25, 2016

Cliff Fujii said:
KKJohn said:

Took this Canadian Thanksgiving photo, and my sister wanted me to isolate the 3 girls on the right of the photo so she could make a blow up, say 5x7 or 8x10 to give to them for Xmas. That's me in the middle sitting down- no silly- the one with the beard.

But as you can see, when cropped, the girls have a waxy look about them. A flash on camera was used with the XT10 and XC16-50 lens. I think the film simulation was standard Provia, tho possibly Velvia. I took the photo at 16mm at a 10sec delayed flash on a tripod, and realized after I should have zoomed in more. Is the waxy look a fault of the camera, the lens, the flash, the film simulation, or just the fact of cropping? Would appreciate any advice, either to correct the problem or just understanding what occurred. Is this simply a Fuji problem or do other cameras- Nikon, Canon, Sony, etc, have the same tendencies? Would I need a more expensive lens, and/or camera to correct the situation? Heaven forbid, I don't want to change my XT10 which I think is a great camera.

Thanks for any advice, comments.

Click to expand...

If you have Lightroom CC, I would look at this again with film simulation set to provia. It looks like your red channel is being overdriven. Also 16mp is 16mp and Fuji doesn't make a magic camera. Looking at your image at 100% doesn't look so bad but you have stepped it up a notch and it looks like you are approaching 200% which is a lot to ask from a sensor.

--
Cliff

Here is my final set of images after working on them, probably not long enough, in Lightroom 4. I also have Picasa and Gimp for fine tuning. Still not perfect but it does look better now IMHO. I know that I need something better, and still looking, but can't justify Photoshop for just casual use, tho I used it years ago until they started this subscription business. Gimp is good but more difficult to master than PS, and I can't spend the time I need with it.

Thanks again for all your comments and suggestions. A couple posts weren't very helpful, but that comes with the territory. I very much appreciate those who answered with a sincere desire to help me improve my image, and shows that DPR is indeed a useful blog and not entirely full of trolls who perhaps look down on us amateurs who bungle along trying to put out a decent photo that our friends and family can enjoy. Cheers to all.

Ed B · Oct 25, 2016

bowportes said:
Ed B said:

KKJohn said:

jl_smith said:

No worries, we all make photographic mistakes!

I'd say the very slow shutter and the massive, massive crop from a 16MP sensor is pushing the limits of what the camera is capable of without 'waxy' (or in this case, just low-resolution) skin tones.

Of course, different Xtrans cameras process skin tones differently (especially at high ISO) so something to think about.

Also, pay attention to your film simulations for sure. Velvia is not the best for skin or people in general, especially in artificial light

Happy shooting!

Click to expand...

Thanks for that. Those were the conclusions I had as well. A good learning experience. It was too bad that I was not able to study my new camera enough before using it in that situation. But we had a very happy Thanksgiving with our "new"(one month old) family member, so all was not lost. If nothing else, the photo provides a good remembrance of the occasion, and needn't worry that the shot would not make the cover of Nat Geo. Unfortunately I won't be seeing all the members of our family in a festive occasion like that for at least a year, as I live in Thailand and most of them live in Canada, one in Korea, and one in the U.S. Just hope I can salvage an "OK" photo from the crop to give to the "girls" for Xmas.

Cheers!

Click to expand...

It's really none of my business but I don't understand why you're cropping the picture.

When you come right down to it, the original picture is just fine for a family snapshot.

The lighting is bad, you were in a hurry and didn't have the camera setup just perfect but that's pretty much a normal situation for most people.

Click to expand...

I couldn't disagree more. Is the full couch that no one's sitting on an important part of the story? What about the bottles in the foreground? The tripod should have been on the coffee table, with fill flash to illuminate. This is a poorly photographed shot by any measure. How to get the best out of it once done is a separate issue, but let's not pretend it didn't need cropping.

When I talked about cropping I was referring to the tight crop of the 3 women in the picture.

As far as the full couch that no one is sitting on, telling a story, the bottles and even a tripod goes, your comment brings a smile to my face because you aren't looking at this as a family snapshot.

You're comparing this to a planned/posed portrait instead of someone who simply took a group picture of their family.

The picture won't win any awards and, yes, mistakes were made but I still don't think it's a "bad" snapshot, provided the OP doesn't expect much from his tight crop of the 3 women.

Naturally, that's just my opinion and it's no more valid than your opinion.

Thanksgiving closeup- waxy look

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