SONY G 70-400

TeamSAXON · Oct 23, 2016

Yes I know I'm posting to this forum about lenses a lot but I seem to be having problems all the time.

I recently bought two sony G lenses and a BIGMA (non hsm) for my horse events.
Today after two full days of photographing a show with a [larger than] 40x20m arena, I've been disappointed with my G lens performance specifically the 70-400 G when it is pushed to a certain limit.

I used it last weekend at a show with a smaller arena (width was smaller), the images were tack sharp and the lens was mostly used at 250mm.. but this week where I went the arena was more square than rectangular. It was BIG.

Sony.. cannot get a good focus, even stopping to f/10-14. It works well at 300 with a horse about 20 meters away. I used to have a really good 70-300 sony on my old a200, but maybe I didn't notice the sharpness as much as it was what 10.2mp?

Am I just lens retarded? Am I just too stupid to use the right settings? (aperture priority btw continuous focus speed 4) I forgot to turn off SteadyShot but would that really impact the photos this much? Should I just give up and use the Bigma which struggles on partly sunny/partly cloudy days? Should I just throw out my brain?

TL;DR the G lens is NOT coping at all with the long sides.

People go nuts about buying images that aren't tack sharp (can't blame them)

Just.. Nope

PaulinUK99999 · Oct 23, 2016

What are the results at f8?

Don't think I would go above f9 with that combo in that arena

Ralf B · Oct 23, 2016

Agree that the pic posted isn't sharp. Not sure it's the lens, though:
Several things not at optimum here.

Motion blurr (see the Hygain sign)
f= 14: Diffraction eats into details, this lens is sharpest wide open to f=8 at 400 mm
ISO 640 jpeg - NR settings can cause additional loss of details, try RAW at medium to hi ISO with the a77
Which focus mode are you using?

Try ISO 200, F=8 and 1/1000 sec or similar next time around when you want to freeze motion, or 1/200 and pan if you want to show the motion.
Cheers,
Ralf

TeamSAXON · Oct 23, 2016

PaulinUK99999 said:
What are the results at f8?

Don't think I would go above f9 with that combo in that arena

--
https://www.flickr.com/photos/paulinuk99999/

This one is 7.1 but 8 is about the same..
It would be fine as a 6x4 but 8x12 would be pushing it, or if someone happens to ask for a large print

I'm very particular about my photos as people want them to be good quality for what they pay (even though I don't ask a lot.. $18 for one high res 8x12" digital.. which is expensive for these people funny enough)

TeamSAXON · Oct 23, 2016

Ralf B said:
Agree that the pic posted isn't sharp. Not sure it's the lens, though:
Several things not at optimum here.

Motion blurr (see the Hygain sign)

f= 14: Diffraction eats into details, this lens is sharpest wide open to f=8 at 400 mm

ISO 640 jpeg - NR settings can cause additional loss of details, try RAW at medium to hi ISO with the a77

Which focus mode are you using?

Try ISO 200, F=8 and 1/1000 sec or similar next time around when you want to freeze motion, or 1/200 and pan if you want to show the motion.
Cheers,
Ralf

I used f/14 as a bit of an experiment to see what kind of result I'd get (see above photo just posted)
I use jpegs as I don't have enough room for raw, or enough memory on my laptop to process them after a long day. It's hard to make the choice between speed and quality.

I've got it as continuous centre spot or wide.
ISO 200 would go well when it's sunny but in the weather today, sun was out, then gone, then out, then gone again... annoying.
What about turning off the high iso noise reduction in jpeg?

steelhead3 · Oct 23, 2016

If used on a tripod, steady shot on will cause problems

markintosh13 · Oct 23, 2016

TeamSAXON said:
PaulinUK99999 said:

What are the results at f8?

Don't think I would go above f9 with that combo in that arena

--
https://www.flickr.com/photos/paulinuk99999/

Click to expand...

This one is 7.1 but 8 is about the same..
It would be fine as a 6x4 but 8x12 would be pushing it, or if someone happens to ask for a large print

I'm very particular about my photos as people want them to be good quality for what they pay (even though I don't ask a lot.. $18 for one high res 8x12" digital.. which is expensive for these people funny enough)

strange double image / glowiness showing up on the playground equipment in the background

lhkjacky · Oct 23, 2016

TeamSAXON said:
Just.. Nope

IMO, the shutter speed 1/400 is a little bit too slow to frozen fast moving object.
In the image above, if you look carefully, you can see it is motion blur not out-of-focus blur.
If you are planning to take a panning shot to create the motion feel of the horse.
It require some practice.

The other image with high shutter speed,
Base on the EXIF information, it seem you were using the center AF point.
The Center AF point (Red) are pointing on the dark horse body with no detail.
If it is too difficult to keep the center AF point on the moving object, expand flexible spot or zone AF may be a better choice.

TeamSAXON · Oct 23, 2016

lhkjacky said:
TeamSAXON said:

Just.. Nope

Click to expand...

IMO, the shutter speed 1/400 is a little bit too slow to frozen fast moving object.
In the image above, if you look carefully, you can see it is motion blur not out-of-focus blur.
If you are planning to take a panning shot to create the motion feel of the horse.
It require some practice.

The other image with high shutter speed,
Base on the EXIF information, it seem you were using the center AF point.
The Center AF point (Red) are pointing on the dark horse body with no detail.
If it is too difficult to keep the center AF point on the moving object, expand flexible spot or zone AF may be a better choice.

You're spot on with the focus point. I normally use wide as my focus points. I tried centre to see if it would make a difference.
I know 1/400 is slow, I aim for at least 1/800 if not 1/1000. As said above, the f/14 was an experiment to see if the lens became sharper. I was sticking with 7.1 to 8 this weekend.

Ed at Ridersite · Oct 23, 2016

I read through all the responses. You are correct to be concerned about the focus. I would not even process these shots. I have used the A-77 and 70-400mm G2 extensively over the last 3 years and am now using it with the A-68..

F8 is the sweet spot of this lens. IMO, with decent technique, 1/400th should be fast enough using SSS. I always use it when shooting wildlife and almost never use shutter speeds higher than 1/500th unless shooting BIF. I also pretty much extensively use the single shot shooting mode usually clicking off multiple shots. I also use aperture priority. For me, using burst modes just doesn't work as well.

If your lens is sharp when shooting still subjects, then I would say that you simply need to find the correct settings for your A-77 II and keep practicing technique - going for eye focus on the subject (either the horse or the rider). If the lens isn't tack sharp shooting still subjects at f8 (or even at f5.6), I'd say, get another lens.

Douglas F Watt · Oct 23, 2016

lhkjacky said:
TeamSAXON said:

Just.. Nope

Click to expand...

IMO, the shutter speed 1/400 is a little bit too slow to frozen fast moving object.
In the image above, if you look carefully, you can see it is motion blur not out-of-focus blur.
If you are planning to take a panning shot to create the motion feel of the horse.
It require some practice.

The other image with high shutter speed,
Base on the EXIF information, it seem you were using the center AF point.
The Center AF point (Red) are pointing on the dark horse body with no detail.
If it is too difficult to keep the center AF point on the moving object, expand flexible spot or zone AF may be a better choice.

Excellent graphical analysis lhkjacky - very insightful to overlay the AF points! I might only add that in shooting at f14 you are already getting diffraction effects, and that the G1 lens at 400mm is sharpest at f8, and if detail is your goal, shooting at both a higher SS and lower F stop would likely help too. You are gaining two stops from f14 to f8, so you could easily shoot at 1/800, and also at the same time, drop your ISO one stop. All of these would help with retaining details.

--
Sony A77m2-RX1-RX10III-RX100III
Sigma: 8-16 4.5-5.6, Tamron 70-200 2.8
Sony: 16-50 2.8, 100 f2.8 Macro, 70-400 f4-5.6 G2,
Minolta: 600 f4, 70-210 f4 ('Beercan'), 28-135 f4-4.5 (SH)
DFW

Douglas F Watt · Oct 23, 2016

Did you MFA that lens at 400mm?

markintosh13 · Oct 23, 2016

markintosh13 said:
strange double image / glowiness showing up on the playground equipment in the background

Just to elaborate, the first shot seems to have more doubling / vertical movement? on the right

Left side view of the fence wire

Right side view of the fence wire, wire looks doubled

Second shot glow and doubling on background play equipment

vertical movement?

lehill · Oct 23, 2016

markintosh13 said:
markintosh13 said:

strange double image / glowiness showing up on the playground equipment in the background

Click to expand...

Just to elaborate, the first shot seems to have more doubling / vertical movement? on the right

Left side view of the fence wire

Right side view of the fence wire, wire looks doubled

Second shot glow and doubling on background play equipment

vertical movement?

--
Lance H

Lensmate · Oct 23, 2016

TeamSAXON said:
Yes I know I'm posting to this forum about lenses a lot but I seem to be having problems all the time.

I recently bought two sony G lenses and a BIGMA (non hsm) for my horse events.
Today after two full days of photographing a show with a [larger than] 40x20m arena, I've been disappointed with my G lens performance specifically the 70-400 G when it is pushed to a certain limit.

I used it last weekend at a show with a smaller arena (width was smaller), the images were tack sharp and the lens was mostly used at 250mm.. but this week where I went the arena was more square than rectangular. It was BIG.

Sony.. cannot get a good focus, even stopping to f/10-14. It works well at 300 with a horse about 20 meters away. I used to have a really good 70-300 sony on my old a200, but maybe I didn't notice the sharpness as much as it was what 10.2mp?

Am I just lens retarded? Am I just too stupid to use the right settings? (aperture priority btw continuous focus speed 4) I forgot to turn off SteadyShot but would that really impact the photos this much? Should I just give up and use the Bigma which struggles on partly sunny/partly cloudy days? Should I just throw out my brain?

TL;DR the G lens is NOT coping at all with the long sides.

People go nuts about buying images that aren't tack sharp (can't blame them)

Its not the lens- its user error!!! Learn to use it properly and you'll get great results!

Too many people are blaming the lens instead of themselves!

-Martin P

https://www.flickr.com/photos/photosauraus_rex/

Michael Fritzen · Oct 23, 2016

Hi,

do you have already some long time experience shooting longer FL lenses?

I'm asking because shooting long lens with the special proposition of getting some sense of movement in the shot at the same time as the main subject is depicted sharp I'd consider almost pro level skills. And even then it wouldn't be unlikely that one gets perhaps 2-3 usable shots out of 10 (or even a lower success rate).

OTOH if you want to provide to the athletes nice sharp shots of their performance I'd strongly suggest to keep the exposure time short enough. For example I'd choose the aperture from f/5.6 to f/8, an expsure time of about 1/1000s and set the ISO accordingly to keep aperture/time in the mentioned range for the given lighting conditions.

Apart from that I'd suggest to shoot AF-C with centre group or individual focus point and to shoot in short bursts of 2-4 images.

Using a monopod could help to hold the gear over longer periods with less fatigue.

virtualreality · Oct 23, 2016

400mm on a77 is a lot!

From the field of view, it looks like you are 100m away, rather than 20. This will introduce all kinds of problems like atmospheric distortion, loss of contrast and so on.

Move closer to your subject. It will make it a lot easier for you.

It looks like you lack a lot of skills and experience. Why do you consider yourself a professional photographer? Selling these photo's is a scam.

q5sys · Oct 23, 2016

When I got my 55-300 lens, my first impulse was to slam that sucker out to 300mm and expect pin sharp photos from huge distances. I was ~horribly~ wrong. After screwing up time after time I figured maybe I aught to use the original zoom method of moving my feet and I instantly saw better results. If I physically cant get closer for some reason I try to stay away from the using long focal lenghts and will try to crop/enlarge later in post. I find I get sharper results in the end by using a shorter focal length and enlarging a sharper image then trying to rescue a muddy image that's zoomed in all the way. Years later I've learned my lesson and try to use the zoom as a last resort to getting a good shot. The 55-300 lens while a great lens, holds nothing (from what I've heard others say) to the 70-400 in terms of sharpness. Here is an example shot I took from an Eventing Championship I was at last weekend, which is cropped down to isolate the subject. Details: 1/800s, f/4.5, ISO 160, 135mm.

Final:

Original:

I hate to sound like one of the people who used to annoy me back in the day, but I finally learned after being stubborn for too long, that they were 100% right. Technique is King. You shouldn't need to go above F8, unless you have a very fast moving subject and want to get multiple shots and not have to worry about refocusing. I'll do that sometimes when I kick over to manual focus and want to give myself a better chance of getting more shots in focus just in case I mis-focus as the horse and rider are doing an sharp arc in front of me while cantering.
With respect to the exact shot you posted, to my eye it looks to be muddy mostly to do camera shake and focal distance that you're working with. SS can help, but it's not a miracle worker... and it's even less helpful at longer distances. The combination of higher ISO, a high focal length, and camera motion will destroy image sharpness.

Don't fret though, every mistake is a chance to change your technique and get better.

AkashRana · Oct 23, 2016

TeamSAXON said:
Yes I know I'm posting to this forum about lenses a lot but I seem to be having problems all the time.

I recently bought two sony G lenses and a BIGMA (non hsm) for my horse events.
Today after two full days of photographing a show with a [larger than] 40x20m arena, I've been disappointed with my G lens performance specifically the 70-400 G when it is pushed to a certain limit.

I used it last weekend at a show with a smaller arena (width was smaller), the images were tack sharp and the lens was mostly used at 250mm.. but this week where I went the arena was more square than rectangular. It was BIG.

Sony.. cannot get a good focus, even stopping to f/10-14. It works well at 300 with a horse about 20 meters away. I used to have a really good 70-300 sony on my old a200, but maybe I didn't notice the sharpness as much as it was what 10.2mp?

Am I just lens retarded? Am I just too stupid to use the right settings? (aperture priority btw continuous focus speed 4) I forgot to turn off SteadyShot but would that really impact the photos this much? Should I just give up and use the Bigma which struggles on partly sunny/partly cloudy days? Should I just throw out my brain?

TL;DR the G lens is NOT coping at all with the long sides.

People go nuts about buying images that aren't tack sharp (can't blame them)

Just.. Nope

My two bits would be to move aperture to f8 along with focus limiter engaged and get a monopoly with decent ballhead. These will keep lense in its sweetest point sharpness wise and would help with camera shake. I shoot this lens on A57 while my friend uses bigma(latest gen) with 80D, and Sony will be on top any given day at 400mm.

TeamSAXON · Oct 23, 2016

virtualreality said:
400mm on a77 is a lot!

From the field of view, it looks like you are 100m away, rather than 20. This will introduce all kinds of problems like atmospheric distortion, loss of contrast and so on.

Move closer to your subject. It will make it a lot easier for you.

It looks like you lack a lot of skills and experience. Why do you consider yourself a professional photographer? Selling these photo's is a scam.

Here's a shot I've sold, if you think what I'm doing is a scam.

I can't move closer. Arenas have a border for a reason. If I moved closer I'd risk ruining work outs and having riders get up in arms about photographers. There are boundaries to doing this kind of photography, and distance is one of them.
I have photographed horses since 2009 on my two bodies a200 and a77II. Both with vastly different lenses over that time. If you really want to know: Sony 70-300mm, Sigma EX IF 70-200 2.8 (the lens I have used 100% of the time in recent years), BIGMA (used for 1 week), and the Sony G 70-400 SSM (used for 4 days). I never once said I was a pro.

q5sys said:
When I got my 55-300 lens, my first impulse was to slam that sucker out to 300mm and expect pin sharp photos from huge distances. I was ~horribly~ wrong. After screwing up time after time I figured maybe I aught to use the original zoom method of moving my feet and I instantly saw better results. If I physically cant get closer for some reason I try to stay away from the using long focal lenghts and will try to crop/enlarge later in post. I find I get sharper results in the end by using a shorter focal length and enlarging a sharper image then trying to rescue a muddy image that's zoomed in all the way. Years later I've learned my lesson and try to use the zoom as a last resort to getting a good shot. The 55-300 lens while a great lens, holds nothing (from what I've heard others say) to the 70-400 in terms of sharpness. Here is an example shot I took from an Eventing Championship I was at last weekend, which is cropped down to isolate the subject. Details: 1/800s, f/4.5, ISO 160, 135mm.

Final:

Original:

I hate to sound like one of the people who used to annoy me back in the day, but I finally learned after being stubborn for too long, that they were 100% right. Technique is King. You shouldn't need to go above F8, unless you have a very fast moving subject and want to get multiple shots and not have to worry about refocusing. I'll do that sometimes when I kick over to manual focus and want to give myself a better chance of getting more shots in focus just in case I mis-focus as the horse and rider are doing an sharp arc in front of me while cantering.
With respect to the exact shot you posted, to my eye it looks to be muddy mostly to do camera shake and focal distance that you're working with. SS can help, but it's not a miracle worker... and it's even less helpful at longer distances. The combination of higher ISO, a high focal length, and camera motion will destroy image sharpness.

Don't fret though, every mistake is a chance to change your technique and get better.

Thanks very much for the advice, I have only shot on longer focal lengths for a short time.. not even the equivalent of 2 weeks. I'm still learning how to best use the longer lengths.

As stated above, I have been using a 70-200 2.8 for about 2 years now. That is the main lens I used most recently, until I decided I needed a bit more reach. I have a lot to learn about using the super zooms. I've had and used a monopod since I started getting lenses with collars on them but I did use it with the 70-300, camera body mounted onto the monopod instead.

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