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Pro Prime Pancake f4 series?

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Nice Monty Python quote. Cat photos don't need pancake primes🤓.
 
Paul, diffraction is the very last thing that bothers me. There more important things, like flare, distortion, mane them yourself.

OP question is a plain trolling
 
But I wouldn't mind seeing a 25mm pancake or a 35mm pancake for quick portraits. Whatever aperture they have to be to be smaller than the 15mm Summilux and maintain better IQ than the 12-32 from wide open. A 25mm 2.8. I've made some lovely street portraits with my oly pro @25mm & f2.8
 
revio said:
mg_k said:
Trollshavethebestcandy said:
Michael M Fliegel said:
Sweet spots vary. The pro Panasonics are great wide open at 2.8. The Olympus 12-40 excels wide open, as does the Olympus 75.
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But keeping it small you have to go somewhere f4 to f8
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There's nothing wrong with a small f4 pancake prime, but please don't label it as pro and charge 100% more for what it really is.

Also pancake prime needs to compromise and cut corners one way or the other to keep the size small, labelling it as pro should suggest superior IQ which can't be mutually inclusive.
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mg_k said:
Tom Axford said:
I agree that it would be very nice to have a series of very small, very high grade lenses for Micro 4/3.

We already have several quite small primes, but there is certainly room for some really high quality primes that have been optimised for small size rather than large aperture. I suspect that for some focal lengths the optimum aperture might be f/2.8 rather than f/4 (or even maybe f/2), because much of the size of a small lens is to do with autofocus control and the other electronics in the lens, so there comes a point where reducing the size of the glass does not much reduce the overall size of the lens.

I think the problem for the manufacturers might be that the market for such lenses would be quite small. Many photographers actually like big lenses, and would be very reluctant to pay more money for a smaller lens! I have been told by several photographers that it is not possible optically for a small lens to be a good lens!!!!! The lens manufacturers quietly encourage this misconception as it is generally in their interests to do so.
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Personally I think it's difficult to have decent "pro" optics in a small size, also "pro" feature (such as weather sealing) on a pancake isn't what the majority is looking for in such a lens imo.

When people think small pancake primes people think "good enough" optics with cheap pricetag.

I mean would you pay $450 for a "pro" 25mm f4 with WR? I certainly wouldn't.
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bluevellet said:
More speed is always nice. Make them as fast possible while still keeping ther pancake size and not compromizing IQ or AF speed too much in the process.

The lack of pancake primes is one of the more puzzling thing about m43. I understand not all focal lenghts are suited for this, but after the 14mm f2.5 and the 20mm f1.7, nothing.
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Agreed! Why the $&@# are there not more pancakes!!! I love pancakes!!!!
 
beaudjangles said:
  • beaudjangles wrote:
But I wouldn't mind seeing a 25mm pancake or a 35mm pancake for quick portraits. Whatever aperture they have to be to be smaller than the 15mm Summilux and maintain better IQ than the 12-32 from wide open. A 25mm 2.8. I've made some lovely street portraits with my oly pro @25mm & f2.8
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What is trolling about wanting compact and high quality pancakes?
 
beaudjangles said:
But I wouldn't mind seeing a 25mm pancake or a 35mm pancake for quick portraits. Whatever aperture they have to be to be smaller than the 15mm Summilux and maintain better IQ than the 12-32 from wide open. A 25mm 2.8. I've made some lovely street portraits with my oly pro @25mm & f2.8
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You would think that with the smaller and lighter ethos that m43 would rule the pancake world!
 
revio said:
Most probably the idea of OP was not to make it smaller than possible WITH very high IQ, rather the idea was to make it BOTH small AND having very high IQ, thus his thinking F:4 might be the reasonable "compromise point" where these requirements could be fulfilled.

I´m guessing of course...as maybe he did too. But I´d believe that point (F:4) would be close to the best if we´d ask for and also would expect really high IQ in a very small package..

Such lenses would most likely be a bit larger than the lens cap 8mm F:8 Zuiko, for example, but smaller than the F:1,8 varieties we already have.
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I wouldn't mind f4 primes, but mine would be HQ (peak perf at f5.6) and really cheap, not small per se. Not that I expect this, trend is towards big and expensive (not why I went m4/3, affordable was part of the plan....)
 
Trollshavethebestcandy said:
With diffraction is usually kicking in around F4 or F5.6 is normally the most optimal F-stop for lenses designed for m43 sensors, why not have a "Pro" series of F4 Pancake Prime lenses like the 300 Pro or the 12-100 Pro zoom in pancake form that are high quality, environment sealed etcetera? Imagine real pancake lenses and real quality in a pro body!!! Keep the smaller and lighter ethos! Street shooters would rejoice!
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First, I shoot at F8 (routinely) on my E-M10 and I can't see any thing that indicates that I've cross over the diffraction barrier.

Second, most of the m43 primes can be shot at F4 (Oly/Pany both have a prime whose max aperture is F8/F12 respectively). Even if someone came up with a lens like the Pentax 40mm pancake, which is very small, the Olympus 25/1.8 is only 2oz heavier.

Thirdly, my EM10 ( or any Olympus ILC) will not fit in anything but a jacket pocket at the minimum. There is no bag that exists that would hold my camera and a slow prime that wouldn't also hold my camera and a fast prime (75/1.8 excluded). So I'd rather have the faster prime which will open up more shooting options for me.
Trollshavethebestcandy said:
what focal length in f4 would interest you?
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12-100

But for a prime the 45/1.8 is more than good enough and small enough for me and most.

Honestly I don't really care if anyone comes out with a slow pancake prime (the more the merrier), but if I had a choice between that or have Olympus come out with version 2s of the 25/1.8 & 45/1.8 that have the clutch MF like the 12/2 has, well then, it's a no brainer - give me the faster lens and the clutch MF.
 
Najinsky said:
Diffraction is always present, it's simply an effect caused by light passing through an aperture.
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It sure is but its not a problem with M4/3 lens at f4 to f5.6, these lenses will be performing at there best at these apertures (unless its a reasonably slow kit lens where it will perform best at stop or two more)
Lens design plays a critical role in minimising the degrading effects said:
Member said:
Trollshavethebestcandy, post: 58455938"]
With diffraction is usually kicking in around F4 or F5.6
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Diffraction sets in a fair bit above this with M4/3 though still a bit quicker than most other systems.
Member said:
is normally the most optimal F-stop for lenses designed for m43 sensors, why not have a "Pro" series of F4 Pancake Prime lenses like the 300 Pro or the 12-100 Pro zoom in pancake form that are high quality, environment sealed etcetera? Imagine real pancake lenses and real quality in a pro body!!! Keep the smaller and lighter ethos! Street shooters would rejoice!

what focal length in f4 would interest you?
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--
Andy
It's coming, it's coming, it's here, it's gone, it's coming...
[/QUOTE]
 
Trollshavethebestcandy said:
With diffraction is usually kicking in around F4 or F5.6 is normally the most optimal F-stop for lenses designed for m43 sensors, why not have a "Pro" series of F4 Pancake Prime lenses like the 300 Pro or the 12-100 Pro zoom in pancake form that are high quality, environment sealed etcetera? Imagine real pancake lenses and real quality in a pro body!!! Keep the smaller and lighter ethos! Street shooters would rejoice!

what focal length in f4 would interest you?
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I clicked on this thread from the main page, thinking that you were talking of 35mm (so-called "FF"), and I was ready to agree with you.

But for MFT, those primes would be: a) redundant, as there's already a lot of great and small primes; b) confusing, since an f/4 aperture ratio simply isn't congruent with the PRO line (except for the very special features of the 12-100mm or the long 300mm); c) useless, because let's face it, MFT sensors need all the light they can get, and the existing primes already deliver excellent performance wide open, and are pretty much ideal at f/4 (i.e. I don't think a slower prime could deliver any demonstrably better results no matter the form factor or cost).

The only primes I'd love to see at f/4 are a +-6mm and a cheap 200mm, with only the former of them pancake-sized.
 
Kharan said:
Trollshavethebestcandy said:
With diffraction is usually kicking in around F4 or F5.6 is normally the most optimal F-stop for lenses designed for m43 sensors, why not have a "Pro" series of F4 Pancake Prime lenses like the 300 Pro or the 12-100 Pro zoom in pancake form that are high quality, environment sealed etcetera? Imagine real pancake lenses and real quality in a pro body!!! Keep the smaller and lighter ethos! Street shooters would rejoice!

what focal length in f4 would interest you?
Click to expand...
I clicked on this thread from the main page, thinking that you were talking of 35mm (so-called "FF"), and I was ready to agree with you.

But for MFT, those primes would be: a) redundant, as there's already a lot of great and small primes; b) confusing, since an f/4 aperture ratio simply isn't congruent with the PRO line (except for the very special features of the 12-100mm or the long 300mm); c) useless, because let's face it, MFT sensors need all the light they can get, and the existing primes already deliver excellent performance wide open, and are pretty much ideal at f/4 (i.e. I don't think a slower prime could deliver any demonstrably better results no matter the form factor or cost).

The only primes I'd love to see at f/4 are a +-6mm and a cheap 200mm, with only the former of them pancake-sized.
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