New Lens Copy Variation

Almost all copy variation centers (excuse the pun) around whether the lens is centered or decentered.
That's not clear to me at all. I think that a lot of copy variation is due to element tilt.
You don't need to measure MTF charts for that. A simple test, such as "Gletscherbruch" is sufficient. Takes less than 5 minutes, and does not involve target micro charts or aligning your camera with a wall using some mirror technology :)
If you're talking about this test:

http://www.gletscherbruch.de/foto/test/dezentrierung/dezentrierung.html

I don't see how it can distinguish between decentered and tilted elements. But maybe I'm missing something here. If so, please enlighten me.

Jim
 
If a lens is visibly decentered, not only when pixel peeping, but also when looking at pictures taken with this copy stopped down a few stops, return it. Slight decentering when shooting wide open is often seen, but this doesn't matter for real world work.

And if you are gong to test a lens, do the test proper. We much more often see bad tests than bad lenses. From my life as a professional during tens of years, I have returned only one single lens.
 
This is a perfect response. Many people who pose this kind of question have purchased a lens they cannot evaluate by real world photography because they fear they aren't good enough at the art and craft to spot a defective lens just by shooting with it.

i admit it usually takes me quite awhile to spot subtly defective photographic equipment - especially if it is completely new. On the other hand, I got 3 seriously decentered Samyang 14mm f2.8 lenses and just gave up (and bought a perfect CV15III). Conversely, I have gone back and checked lenses I thought were good because I'd made good images with them - and discovered that by forum standards, they are not very good. Conversely I have tested lenses from long ago - before I improved my skills - and discovered they were better than I thought.

If you can't trust your images to tell you whether a lens meets your quality demands, it's probably better than your skills.
 
How does the average person who is not able to understand MTF charts and the like determine if he got a copy of a G Master Lens or certain top performing Zeiss lens that is spot on, above average or God forbid below average?

It is troublesome to read about people having to send two copies back to get a good one when you have no idea if you got a good one or not.

How much variation are we talking about not counting a defective lens?

Are we talking 1%, 2%, 5%, 10%, 15%, 20% or 25%+

I am sure I am not the only person who wonders about this. Is there a method to determine how it performs versus how it is supposed to or a place to send a new lens and verify that it is average or hopefully even a tad better?

Please do not say look at the photos because even though it may be excellent a person has no way of knowing if it is delivering what it is capable of and doing so without comparing several examples of the same lens which we do not get that opportunity.
Nothing at all wrong with your concern, and you will learn some technique by doing the testing. Do the http://www.gletscherbruch.de/foto/test/dezentrierung/dezentrierung.html test. If you don't read German, basically you photograph a distant object in the four corners and the center (5 shots) of the frame and then compare. Use a tripod if you can or a very high shutter speed on a bright day if you can't. (If you are on a tripod, also use timer release so that you don't move the camera a bit when you press the shutter release.) If you don't have a tripod, and maybe even if you do, do the test a couple of times and look for the trend of the results. (I would test the lens with the aperture wide open.) The results from the four corners and a comparison of the two sides and the top and bottom don't have to indicate a perfect match for the lens to be acceptable and the corners will almost always be significantly less sharp and less contrasty than the center. After doing the test, you can then take some normal images of the type you like to shoot and compare what you see on those to what you got from the test. Then decide if you want to exchange the lens for another. Also, read the Roger Cicala blog entry (linked below). You will find it interesting. And you can google Roger Cicala + lens variation--that should also give you some interesting reading.

But the test as outlined above should be informative and even fun.
 
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If a lens is visibly decentered, not only when pixel peeping, but also when looking at pictures taken with this copy stopped down a few stops, return it. Slight decentering when shooting wide open is often seen, but this doesn't matter for real world work.

And if you are gong to test a lens, do the test proper. We much more often see bad tests than bad lenses. From my life as a professional during tens of years, I have returned only one single lens.
Well put. That's been my experience also.
 
How does the average person who is not able to understand MTF charts and the like determine if he got a copy of a G Master Lens or certain top performing Zeiss lens that is spot on, above average or God forbid below average?
  1. Take photos of various real-world objects focused on different parts of the frame, at various distances. Make sure you are working in a well-lit scenario, at low ISO and with an appropriate shutter speed.
  2. Open the files on your computer, check sharpness.
99% of the trolls who are complaining are just doing it wrong. They take crooked photos of flat test charts in a dimly lit bedroom, and then they flood the internet with buyers remorse.
 
You could use MTF mapper.. But I am not sure it is worth the effort...

I always suggest doing a full set of basic lens tests on a new lens. I would not worry about how the lens shakes out against other lenses. I would focus on shooting some test targets to make sure there is nothing wrong with your lens. Check for alignment etc. While you are at it check out the center and corner performance. You can measure the resolution if you really want but really what matters is are you happy and is the lens reasonably uniform? Most folks will not notice softer corners but if one or two are razor sharp and the others stink.. You will notice it :)
 
I asked an honest question and like so many anal photographers you had to ream my ass and I knew someone would reply as you did. It goes with the territory when you have photographers on a blog.
Trust me, I wasnt reaming your ass. My point is (and this wasnt directed at you but forum mentality in general) to much emphasis is put on gear questions like this when in reality they have nothing to do photography, especially for someone who is starting out or relatively new.
I am not worried about 2% or a minor variation or expecting the best lens as your email states.

I asked a question hoping someone could explain copy variation to me and how much variation is there typically can be.

If it is 10-20% I would want to know if it is very minor I agree with you completely.

Some of may not have the experience or talent that you and some others have that is why we ask questions... for answers and to gain knowledge from people who have it to share.
This last part, this hits it. People who do not have a lot of experience or talent dont need to waste time worrying about gear issues. They need to be focused on what makes a better image...composition, subject matter, lighting, personal visions, etc. Once these skills are learned and they begin to grow then and only then will gear differences even begin to come into the picture. By telling you this I am (in your own words) helping you gain knowledge that I have to share. Whether you take it to heart is another matter.
 
Almost all copy variation centers (excuse the pun) around whether the lens is centered or decentered.
That's not clear to me at all. I think that a lot of copy variation is due to element tilt.
You don't need to measure MTF charts for that. A simple test, such as "Gletscherbruch" is sufficient. Takes less than 5 minutes, and does not involve target micro charts or aligning your camera with a wall using some mirror technology :)
If you're talking about this test:

http://www.gletscherbruch.de/foto/test/dezentrierung/dezentrierung.html

I don't see how it can distinguish between decentered and tilted elements. But maybe I'm missing something here. If so, please enlighten me.

Jim
 
Nothing at all wrong with your concern, and you will learn some technique by doing the testing. Do the http://www.gletscherbruch.de/foto/test/dezentrierung/dezentrierung.html test. If you don't read German, basically you photograph a distant object in the four corners and the center (5 shots) of the frame and then compare. Use a tripod if you can or a very high shutter speed on a bright day if you can't. (If you are on a tripod, also use timer release so that you don't move the camera a bit when you press the shutter release.) If you don't have a tripod, and maybe even if you do, do the test a couple of times and look for the trend of the results. (I would test the lens with the aperture wide open.) The results from the four corners and a comparison of the two sides and the top and bottom don't have to indicate a perfect match for the lens to be acceptable and the corners will almost always be significantly less sharp and less contrasty than the center. After doing the test, you can then take some normal images of the type you like to shoot and compare what you see on those to what you got from the test. Then decide if you want to exchange the lens for another. Also, read the Roger Cicala blog entry (linked below). You will find it interesting. And you can google Roger Cicala + lens variation--that should also give you some interesting reading.

But the test as outlined above should be informative and even fun.
I have to strongly disagree with this. Especially from a neophyte or beginners view. Heck, even from an intermediate photographers view. The worst thing we can recommend to someone attempting to learn photography is to suggest they learn how to test their gear.

No, no, no, no, nooooooo. Time spent dorking around with testing or lens charts or comparing corners is TIME WASTED. Photographers need to learn to see the world in terms of light, develop their photographic vision and learn the rules of good composition (so they can learn to break them). They need to take their inner muse out to dinner, get her drunk and then listen attentively (with notepad in hand) as she mumbles on and on while divulging all kinds of artistic secrets. And who knows, you might also get lucky.

But you want to tick her off? Go shoot a bunch of test shots to play with you gear and watch her not return your text or calls.

If anybody wants the proof of this pudding then just remember this. A new or unskilled photographer is going to take the exact same (probably bland and uninspired) photograph with either bad gear or really good gear. Doesnt matter if the lenses are 'in spec' or wildly out of spec. The results are going to be the same. But even at this skill level a REALLY BAD lens will show itself. It will be obvious. Thus my initial recommendation to not worry about until it matters, which is way down the road.

But conversely a skilled photographer who is able to make compelling images on a regular basis will STILL be able to take good photographs with bad gear. He will have many tricks in his bag that allows him to identify a problem and then....here is the important part...shoot around it.

A new photographer should never be told to test equipment. He should be taught how to take photographs. Eventually they will reach a stage, on their own mind you, where they will figure out for themselves not only if they need to test a piece of gear or not, but more importantly why.

--
While I suppose I could be considered a natural light photographer I prefer to think I am a natural shadow photographer...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8539414@N07/albums/72157641534772013
 
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I have to strongly disagree with this. Especially from a neophyte or beginners view. Heck, even from an intermediate photographers view. The worst thing we can recommend to someone attempting to learn photography is to suggest they learn how to test their gear.

No, no, no, no, nooooooo. Time spent dorking around with testing or lens charts or comparing corners is TIME WASTED.
i have to strongly disagree with that, because it's nonsense.

understanding how lenses work is one of the most critical aspects of photography... for example, focal length and aperture are among the very first subjects that are covered in any photography class.

the process of learning how to identify lens defects is simple and easy, it teaches people how to differentiate between critical focus, motion blur, lens defects, dof, etc.

the time spent manually focusing a camera, which is mandatory for testing lenses, teaches newbies the basics of camera operation... manual focusing is a lost art these days, most people only want to use af.

--
dan
 
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I have to strongly disagree with this. Especially from a neophyte or beginners view. Heck, even from an intermediate photographers view. The worst thing we can recommend to someone attempting to learn photography is to suggest they learn how to test their gear.

No, no, no, no, nooooooo. Time spent dorking around with testing or lens charts or comparing corners is TIME WASTED.
i have to strongly disagree with that, because it's nonsense.

understanding how lenses work is one of the most critical aspects of photography... for example, focal length and aperture are among the very first subjects that are covered in any photography class.

the process of learning how to identify lens defects is simple and easy, it teaches people how to differentiate between critical focus, motion blur, lens defects, dof, etc.

the time spent manually focusing a camera, which is mandatory for testing lenses, teaches newbies the basics of camera operation... manual focusing is a lost art these days, most people only want to use af.
 
Nothing at all wrong with your concern, and you will learn some technique by doing the testing. Do the http://www.gletscherbruch.de/foto/test/dezentrierung/dezentrierung.html test. If you don't read German, basically you photograph a distant object in the four corners and the center (5 shots) of the frame and then compare. Use a tripod if you can or a very high shutter speed on a bright day if you can't. (If you are on a tripod, also use timer release so that you don't move the camera a bit when you press the shutter release.) If you don't have a tripod, and maybe even if you do, do the test a couple of times and look for the trend of the results. (I would test the lens with the aperture wide open.) The results from the four corners and a comparison of the two sides and the top and bottom don't have to indicate a perfect match for the lens to be acceptable and the corners will almost always be significantly less sharp and less contrasty than the center. After doing the test, you can then take some normal images of the type you like to shoot and compare what you see on those to what you got from the test. Then decide if you want to exchange the lens for another. Also, read the Roger Cicala blog entry (linked below). You will find it interesting. And you can google Roger Cicala + lens variation--that should also give you some interesting reading.

But the test as outlined above should be informative and even fun.
I have to strongly disagree with this. Especially from a neophyte or beginners view. Heck, even from an intermediate photographers view. The worst thing we can recommend to someone attempting to learn photography is to suggest they learn how to test their gear.

No, no, no, no, nooooooo. Time spent dorking around with testing or lens charts or comparing corners is TIME WASTED. Photographers need to learn to see the world in terms of light, develop their photographic vision and learn the rules of good composition (so they can learn to break them). They need to take their inner muse out to dinner, get her drunk and then listen attentively (with notepad in hand) as she mumbles on and on while divulging all kinds of artistic secrets. And who knows, you might also get lucky.

But you want to tick her off? Go shoot a bunch of test shots to play with you gear and watch her not return your text or calls.
Are you saying that a photographer who makes images like this:

c00ee151380f42cbb75c64579b3381ba.jpg

Is unlikely to make images like this:

d7063b77a22548de923384a05d00a815.jpg

I make both kinds of images.
If anybody wants the proof of this pudding then just remember this. A new or unskilled photographer is going to take the exact same (probably bland and uninspired) photograph with either bad gear or really good gear. Doesnt matter if the lenses are 'in spec' or wildly out of spec. The results are going to be the same. But even at this skill level a REALLY BAD lens will show itself. It will be obvious. Thus my initial recommendation to not worry about until it matters, which is way down the road.
I certainly don't disagree that making art is more important that mastering the craft, but I don't see them as an either/or choice. In fact, done right, I think they complement each other.
But conversely a skilled photographer who is able to make compelling images on a regular basis will STILL be able to take good photographs with bad gear. He will have many tricks in his bag that allows him to identify a problem and then....here is the important part...shoot around it.
That's for sure. And today's gear is just so amazing that there's hardly ever a reason to blame the equipment. But you have to know what the gear can do, and that's where testing comes in.
A new photographer should never be told to test equipment. He should be taught how to take photographs.
Why not both? Back in the day, a photgrapher new to The Zone System made endless test images to get his technique, hhis equipment, and the materials all dialed in. The trap is loosing track of what's more important, art or craft:

http://blog.kasson.com/?p=9
Eventually they will reach a stage, on their own mind you, where they will figure out for themselves not only if they need to test a piece of gear or not, but more importantly why.
Yup.

Jim
 
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I appreciate your comments Goethe, I have been a photography buff since 1971 when I got my first two Nikormats and taken hundreds of thousand of photos. I spent the majority of my time with this hobby creating photos and not paying attention to gear other than which setups provided better images, had better low light capability etc.

Even though I have spent 45 years with this hobby it was not until last year when I dove in head first and acquired a a7rII and some good lenses. I was using the 16-35 F4 zoom and a person I met told me to try some primes and I literally fell in love with the results from the 55 1.8, 90 macro and three Batis lens and now some GM lenses. It is like a whole new ball game and exciting.

I am like a kid with a new toy the last five months since I got my primes and a sponge for information so I am asking a lot and have learned a lot.

It is really nice to see images that are so good that sometimes no post is required at all and others with very little pp. It is satisfying and makes me feel more like a photographer than a graphic artist with PS & LR. I have also found that I can rescue images in low light or higher ISO's and end up with photos that would have been discarded before.

It is a lot of fun and I am trying to learn as much as I can on several subjects including being a better photographer but the equipment and knowledge of how to use it has certainly helped. I have always had the eye and the know how when it comes to composition but never satisfied and want to improve. I must admit it is much easier with today's equipment to end up with images that are special.
 
Nothing at all wrong with your concern, and you will learn some technique by doing the testing. Do the http://www.gletscherbruch.de/foto/test/dezentrierung/dezentrierung.html test. If you don't read German, basically you photograph a distant object in the four corners and the center (5 shots) of the frame and then compare. Use a tripod if you can or a very high shutter speed on a bright day if you can't. (If you are on a tripod, also use timer release so that you don't move the camera a bit when you press the shutter release.) If you don't have a tripod, and maybe even if you do, do the test a couple of times and look for the trend of the results. (I would test the lens with the aperture wide open.) The results from the four corners and a comparison of the two sides and the top and bottom don't have to indicate a perfect match for the lens to be acceptable and the corners will almost always be significantly less sharp and less contrasty than the center. After doing the test, you can then take some normal images of the type you like to shoot and compare what you see on those to what you got from the test. Then decide if you want to exchange the lens for another. Also, read the Roger Cicala blog entry (linked below). You will find it interesting. And you can google Roger Cicala + lens variation--that should also give you some interesting reading.

But the test as outlined above should be informative and even fun.
I have to strongly disagree with this. Especially from a neophyte or beginners view. Heck, even from an intermediate photographers view. The worst thing we can recommend to someone attempting to learn photography is to suggest they learn how to test their gear.

No, no, no, no, nooooooo. Time spent dorking around with testing or lens charts or comparing corners is TIME WASTED. Photographers need to learn to see the world in terms of light, develop their photographic vision and learn the rules of good composition (so they can learn to break them). They need to take their inner muse out to dinner, get her drunk and then listen attentively (with notepad in hand) as she mumbles on and on while divulging all kinds of artistic secrets. And who knows, you might also get lucky.

But you want to tick her off? Go shoot a bunch of test shots to play with you gear and watch her not return your text or calls.
Are you saying that a photographer who makes images like this:

c00ee151380f42cbb75c64579b3381ba.jpg

Is unlikely to make images like this:

d7063b77a22548de923384a05d00a815.jpg

I make both kinds of images.
If anybody wants the proof of this pudding then just remember this. A new or unskilled photographer is going to take the exact same (probably bland and uninspired) photograph with either bad gear or really good gear. Doesnt matter if the lenses are 'in spec' or wildly out of spec. The results are going to be the same. But even at this skill level a REALLY BAD lens will show itself. It will be obvious. Thus my initial recommendation to not worry about until it matters, which is way down the road.
I certainly don't disagree that making art is more important that mastering the craft, but I don't see them as an either/or choice. In fact, done right, I think they complement each other.
But conversely a skilled photographer who is able to make compelling images on a regular basis will STILL be able to take good photographs with bad gear. He will have many tricks in his bag that allows him to identify a problem and then....here is the important part...shoot around it.
That's for sure. And today's gear is just so amazing that there's hardly ever a reason to blame the equipment. But you have to know what the gear can do, and that's where testing comes in.
A new photographer should never be told to test equipment. He should be taught how to take photographs.
Why not both? Back in the day, a photgrapher new to The Zone System made endless test images to get his technique, hhis equipment, and the materials all dialed in. The trap is loosing track of what's more important, art or craft:

http://blog.kasson.com/?p=9
Eventually they will reach a stage, on their own mind you, where they will figure out for themselves not only if they need to test a piece of gear or not, but more importantly why.
Yup.

Jim
Fabulous image, really beautiful! (I mean the second one) ;-) .
 
Nothing at all wrong with your concern, and you will learn some technique by doing the testing. Do the http://www.gletscherbruch.de/foto/test/dezentrierung/dezentrierung.html test. If you don't read German, basically you photograph a distant object in the four corners and the center (5 shots) of the frame and then compare. Use a tripod if you can or a very high shutter speed on a bright day if you can't. (If you are on a tripod, also use timer release so that you don't move the camera a bit when you press the shutter release.) If you don't have a tripod, and maybe even if you do, do the test a couple of times and look for the trend of the results. (I would test the lens with the aperture wide open.) The results from the four corners and a comparison of the two sides and the top and bottom don't have to indicate a perfect match for the lens to be acceptable and the corners will almost always be significantly less sharp and less contrasty than the center. After doing the test, you can then take some normal images of the type you like to shoot and compare what you see on those to what you got from the test. Then decide if you want to exchange the lens for another. Also, read the Roger Cicala blog entry (linked below). You will find it interesting. And you can google Roger Cicala + lens variation--that should also give you some interesting reading.

But the test as outlined above should be informative and even fun.
I have to strongly disagree with this. Especially from a neophyte or beginners view. Heck, even from an intermediate photographers view. The worst thing we can recommend to someone attempting to learn photography is to suggest they learn how to test their gear.

No, no, no, no, nooooooo. Time spent dorking around with testing or lens charts or comparing corners is TIME WASTED. Photographers need to learn to see the world in terms of light, develop their photographic vision and learn the rules of good composition (so they can learn to break them). They need to take their inner muse out to dinner, get her drunk and then listen attentively (with notepad in hand) as she mumbles on and on while divulging all kinds of artistic secrets. And who knows, you might also get lucky.

But you want to tick her off? Go shoot a bunch of test shots to play with you gear and watch her not return your text or calls.
Are you saying that a photographer who makes images like this:

c00ee151380f42cbb75c64579b3381ba.jpg

Is unlikely to make images like this:

d7063b77a22548de923384a05d00a815.jpg

I make both kinds of images.
If anybody wants the proof of this pudding then just remember this. A new or unskilled photographer is going to take the exact same (probably bland and uninspired) photograph with either bad gear or really good gear. Doesnt matter if the lenses are 'in spec' or wildly out of spec. The results are going to be the same. But even at this skill level a REALLY BAD lens will show itself. It will be obvious. Thus my initial recommendation to not worry about until it matters, which is way down the road.
I certainly don't disagree that making art is more important that mastering the craft, but I don't see them as an either/or choice. In fact, done right, I think they complement each other.
But conversely a skilled photographer who is able to make compelling images on a regular basis will STILL be able to take good photographs with bad gear. He will have many tricks in his bag that allows him to identify a problem and then....here is the important part...shoot around it.
That's for sure. And today's gear is just so amazing that there's hardly ever a reason to blame the equipment. But you have to know what the gear can do, and that's where testing comes in.
A new photographer should never be told to test equipment. He should be taught how to take photographs.
Why not both? Back in the day, a photgrapher new to The Zone System made endless test images to get his technique, hhis equipment, and the materials all dialed in. The trap is loosing track of what's more important, art or craft:

http://blog.kasson.com/?p=9
Eventually they will reach a stage, on their own mind you, where they will figure out for themselves not only if they need to test a piece of gear or not, but more importantly why.
Yup.

Jim
Fabulous image, really beautiful! (I mean the second one) ;-) .
Thanks. It's the cover image in a book that I'm publishing. The books were bound last week, and I'm expecting the first palletload soon.

http://blog.kasson.com/?p=15801

I also test lenses.

Jim

--
http://blog.kasson.com
 
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Almost all copy variation centers (excuse the pun) around whether the lens is centered or decentered.
That's not clear to me at all. I think that a lot of copy variation is due to element tilt.
You don't need to measure MTF charts for that. A simple test, such as "Gletscherbruch" is sufficient. Takes less than 5 minutes, and does not involve target micro charts or aligning your camera with a wall using some mirror technology :)
If you're talking about this test:

http://www.gletscherbruch.de/foto/test/dezentrierung/dezentrierung.html

I don't see how it can distinguish between decentered and tilted elements. But maybe I'm missing something here. If so, please enlighten me.

Jim
 
Almost all copy variation centers (excuse the pun) around whether the lens is centered or decentered.
That's not clear to me at all. I think that a lot of copy variation is due to element tilt.
You don't need to measure MTF charts for that. A simple test, such as "Gletscherbruch" is sufficient. Takes less than 5 minutes, and does not involve target micro charts or aligning your camera with a wall using some mirror technology :)
If you're talking about this test:

http://www.gletscherbruch.de/foto/test/dezentrierung/dezentrierung.html

I don't see how it can distinguish between decentered and tilted elements. But maybe I'm missing something here. If so, please enlighten me.

Jim
 
Almost all copy variation centers (excuse the pun) around whether the lens is centered or decentered.
That's not clear to me at all. I think that a lot of copy variation is due to element tilt.
You don't need to measure MTF charts for that. A simple test, such as "Gletscherbruch" is sufficient. Takes less than 5 minutes, and does not involve target micro charts or aligning your camera with a wall using some mirror technology :)
If you're talking about this test:

http://www.gletscherbruch.de/foto/test/dezentrierung/dezentrierung.html

I don't see how it can distinguish between decentered and tilted elements. But maybe I'm missing something here. If so, please enlighten me.

Jim
 

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