To Phil and STF'rs.Is it possible to make reading msgs.easier ?

Steve W. Brewer · Aug 13, 2003

You know, what would really be ideal (from an end-user and bandwidth point of view) is an NNTP interface to the DPReview forums. I don't mean a web NNTP gateway as someone else suggested, but a real (and optional) NNTP interface run off the DPReview database.

Adobe's technical support forums are basically set up this way, as are those of some other companies (Autodesk, for example). Users can access and participate in the forums via a web browser or newsreader, according to their preference. Usually, the web interface isn't nearly as well designed as DPReview's, but using a newsreader is much easier, logical, and efficient than any web interface I have seen (including DPReview's).

There are only two potential problems with offering an NNTP interface that I can see:

1) Obviously, Phil either has to write the NNTP interface or buy one that can work with his database.

2) Using the NNTP interface, users may not see the ads that help support DPReview and/or links to important sections of DPReview.

With enough effort, the problems with (2) can be overcome. The NNTP interface can serve posts in HTML format and add to each post (perhaps dynamically as the post is retrieved from the NNTP server) template code that inserts ads and desired links.

And of course, the web interface should remain available for those who prefer to use it.

Not necessarily easy or desirable from Phil's point of view, but definitely the best option from the user's point of view.

Mount K2 · Aug 13, 2003

IC !!

I thot that was a very useful feature for everyone. Guess we all have our own preferences.

Also just found the explanation of the 'red' NEW and the 'green' NEW from the Rules / Help provided, and it's use.

RED

NEW Thread has new messages since your last session in this forum, click on NEW to jump directly to the newest unread message.

GREEN

NEW Thread has new messages since you started current session in this forum, click on NEW to jump directly to the newest unread message

I did not notice the use for it earlier!!

So I agree that Phil has done a good job with the interface of this forum here.

Maybe just some enhancements like - Advance search option that can search by name of person posting ( like if I'm looking for past post of yours, I can just get all those you have posted, rather than all post containing your name!! ). Also to have a sort order function to help us locate the post we are looking for. I think this will help me at least!!

Also the ability to specify whether to include all the previous messages in the thread or not when replying would be also welcome. ( instead of having to remember to delete previous text every time we reply ).

What do you think?? How about Turbo Ted, any thoughts??

Ulysses said:
To be quite honest, I use it perhaps once a month, if that much.

I'm a "Manual Forum Mode" kind of guy.

--

Ulysses

Steve W. Brewer · Aug 13, 2003

Steve W. Brewer said:
You know, what would really be ideal (from an end-user and
bandwidth point of view) is an NNTP interface to the DPReview
forums. I don't mean a web NNTP gateway as someone else suggested,
but a real (and optional) NNTP interface run off the DPReview
database.

Just to follow up ... in the first paragraph, I meant to say "web-to-NNTP gateway," but I used angle brackets in an attempt to make arrows, which were filtered out of the final post.

Also, I just want to mention that DPReview's forum interface is a problem. I enjoy the discussion in the STF and other DPReview forums, but the interface makes it such a chore to keep up with them that I don't visit very often and post even less. Particularly when I haven't been able to stop by in a few days, the thought of getting caught up is so daunting that I just forget about it and end up not coming back for months.

Now, DPReview's web interface to its forums may or may not be better than other web forum software (that's debatable and highly dependent on personal preference), but the root problem is that it is web-based. Unless and until the web evolves into something very different from it's current state, a web site will never be the best place to host a discussion forum. The web and the browsers used to access it weren't designed for discussion forums, and any attempt to force that function upon them will always be an inefficient kludge. NNTP on the other hand, and the newsreaders used to access it, were designed from the very beginning to facillitate multiuser discussion.

It's a matter of using the right tool for the job. You may be able to get a screw into a threaded hole with a hammer, but it's much easier and more efficient to use a screwdriver.

Stepping off my soapbox now and relurking ...

Mark Ransom · Aug 13, 2003

I will be the first to say that this is not a perfect mechanism for reading messages. Could it be made better? I don't know. But that's not the point.

Which would you rather have Phil doing, updating the software or reviewing cameras?

I know where my vote would go, especially at this time of year!

Jose Noway · Aug 13, 2003

CTzen said:
Jose Noway said:

There are days when I'd just about kill to be able to edit or even
delete one of my posts altogether. Unfortunately, with a gathering
of people in the numbers and diversity we have here, this feeechure
tends to lead to people being left out of the loop (threads no
longer making sense), squabbles, paranoia, and out-and-out war.

Click to expand...

yes, that's why we need it. Sometimes people write something
without thinking and being sorry about it same moment they press
Post button, whishing they can delete it. Sometimes, it just small
mistakes like wrong URLs, spelling, etc.

Spelling mistakes is why I'd want it. Man, I've gotten bad in my old age.

CTzen said:
CTzen said:

Then there is the sad fact that there are times when Phil needs
published proof for doing what sometimes needs doing (am thinking
banning members at times).

Click to expand...

CTzen said:
deleting your own post doesn't mean it will be deleted from Phil's
database, it just will be hidden for readers. But again, it depends
on implementation.

True enough.

CTzen said:
CTzen said:

It's all so complicated, isn't it?

Click to expand...

they call it Life

There you go ;-)

Nancy

Jose Noway · Aug 13, 2003

I think that if you look through this thread, you'll see that everyone has their own personal thoughts about what would make the ideal board. It's a never-ending kind of thing and even if Phil wanted to rewrite all of his code to implement this stuff, he'd have 100 times more people posting to contribute their thoughts.

I imagine that all of these things have been considered and either ditched for reasons that aren't obvious to us, or added to a ToDo list for sometime in the future. When will that be? Heh... probably in Phil's spare time. ;-)

Nancy

TurboTed · Aug 13, 2003

Well now that it's defined, it still doesn't work that way for me.

If I leave my browser and return to DPReview, every single message and every single post of every single message has a Red "New". They might as well have a yellow moon, blue star or green clover. It's meaningless the wait it works on my setup.

The green ones I haven't really figured out yet because they happen so infrequently.

I must be missing something obvious here. It wouldn't be the first time.

Joel32 said:
TurboTed said:

Ulysses said:

For example: If you come to the forum here at STF, you see a list
of all the thread topics. Most have a red or green "NEW" associated
with them. Clicking on "NEW" at this point in the hierarchy will
lead you to the first new message in that thread.

Click to expand...

Oh, see I was looking at the "New"s in the thread itself which
aren't link at all.

Joel32 said:

This isn't nearly the functionality that you're asking for, however.

TurboTed said:

Ulysses said:

Are you talking about some method other than clicking on the word
"New" (either the red version or the green version of the word)?
That takes you to the newest message in that given thread.

Click to expand...

No, that is not what I'm suggesting but since you mentioned it, are
you saying the "New" word is a link or just an indicator on a
thread. The fact is that does nothing for me.

Click to expand...

--

Ulysses

Click to expand...

--
TurboTed

(It's easier just being insane than acting insane)

Click to expand...

--
TurboTed

(It's easier just being insane than acting insane)

Ulysses · Aug 13, 2003

Mount K2 said:
I thot that was a very useful feature for everyone. Guess we all
have our own preferences.

Actually, I knew about the feature and like it. It's just my own old habits for not using it more often. Maybe I will from now on. Thanks for the reminder.

Mount K2 said:
Maybe just some enhancements like - Advance search option that can
search by name of person posting ( like if I'm looking for past
post of yours, I can just get all those you have posted, rather
than all post containing your name!! ).

That would be helpful. I can often remember who said something. I just can't remember WHEN they said it, thereby narrowing down the search.

Mount K2 said:
Also to have a sort order
function to help us locate the post we are looking for. I think
this will help me at least!!

Sounds good.

Mount K2 said:
Also the ability to specify whether to include all the previous
messages in the thread or not when replying would be also welcome.

Grumble, grumble. This is a personal dislike of mine. Not a huge deal, but I mention it often.

Mount K2 said:
( instead of having to remember to delete previous text every time
we reply ).

I wish that especially more active and experienced members were doing more of this, since things are the way that they are for now. I forget sometimes myself, but as a matter of course and habit, I try to help out in this way. It's lots easier for the rest of the forum members when reading.

--

Ulysses

pdqgp · Aug 13, 2003

I guess...I personally like vBulletin Board styles. Prolly cause that's what most boards use and I like the layout, quoting, style, etc.......

Can't say which is better, but I do probably read more on those boards as here.....I can't take the time to read everyone's replies when they all have the same dang subject line just one under the other. I honest skip those threads and pay them no mind. Even this thread....I can't read every reply and click that many times. vBoards are just much easier for me. I can scroll and scan a lot faster than clicking and waiting.

Phil Askey said:
Shay Stephens said:

If you have all the time in the world and are willing to do a ton
of reading, then I suppose it would be ok, Phil could dump his
custom code, load vBulletin and be just like everybody else ;-)

Click to expand...

--
-tim

Canon 1 0 D, 24-70mm/f2.8 L-Series, 75-300mm/f4-5.6 IS, 35mm f2, Canon 4 2 0EX Speedlight
Sony 7 1 7, Nikon 9 9 5 & Konica KD-4 0 0 Z
Accessories....tons of course
http://www.pbase.com/pdqgp

Ann Chaikin · Aug 13, 2003

This really helps me decide which entries to read and which to skip. I agree with Shay and others that I prefer the "dip in" mode of reading to the "wade through" mode. But I love it when people put subject lines that say a bit about what is in their post. It really helps when deciding which to read. Ann
--
also known as PT Kitty > ^..^
http://www.pbase.com/ptkitty/galleries
http://www.annchaikin.com

Jan P · Aug 13, 2003

Is it an idea to provide such a reading for registered paying MEMBERS of the site? By that you can offer them some extra advantages.

The very popular site tweakers.net in the Netherlands has also that kind of advantages for paying members (for a few euro each month).

Regards,
Jan.

Phil Askey said:
Yang said:

The best solution is to implement an option to allow the user to
switch between the two views:

Click to expand...

lck0925 · Aug 13, 2003

If there is such a function then anyone who uses it but does not read all the responses should be punished as they have wasted a lot of bandwidth. Yes, some may say text isn't that much but it adds up when a lot of people do it.

More importantly, my HCI course has taught me that you should never put too much information on one page.

T

ernet said:
Hi Phil and all of you.

First of all sorry for my english.
Well, there are many times when there are many answers for sb.'s
thread.
To read them ( answers ) all we have to " click " many,many times
to read EVERY ANSWER. So my idea is:
is it possible to introduce to every Forums a function called "
SHOW ALL THE ANSWERS " ?
What means that after "click" on it we can see all the answers for
the actually reading subject/thread. A very usefull and comfortable
possibility, isn't it ?
How much time ( fingers, mouse ) we can save this way ! No more
waiting for loading every page withe every answer/comment of the
reading threat !

So once again;

what do you think about this idea ?

is it technically possible ?

can Phil do that and would like to make it and our live easier

;-)) ?

--
Ernet/ Tenre at work

--
T
Sony F717, Canon S110, Sunpak 383 Super

Kris_K · Aug 13, 2003

Chris,

The tree can be preserved similar to how google handles news groups

http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&threadm=vjksgrjtl9v49d%40corp.supernews.com&prev=/groups%3Fdq%3D%26num%3D25%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26group%3Drec.photo.digital%26start%3D25

And if Phil had an NNTP interface as someone else suggested, then Phil could offload some of the bandwidth to Google and other sites while still providing his web interface. Users could also leverage the Google search engine. Lots of positives for everyone (except the developer to add the interface).

Kris

Jane B. · Aug 13, 2003

Doesn't seem to exactly work the best for me either. If I go to one of the other threads here or in another section of DPReview and come back when I click on a thread again some that I have already read with have either type of New. I find I have to scroll through all of the list of posts at the bottom of the first one in the thread and go by the color of the subject lines — the ones marked "New" in either color may are may not be ones I have read.
Jane

TurboTed said:
TurboTed wrote:
Well now that it's defined, it still doesn't work that way for me.

If I leave my browser and return to DPReview, every single message
and every single post of every single message has a Red "New".
They might as well have a yellow moon, blue star or green clover.
It's meaningless the wait it works on my setup.

The green ones I haven't really figured out yet because they happen
so infrequently.

I must be missing something obvious here. It wouldn't be the first
time.

quietguy · Aug 13, 2003

I can skim/speed read really well, so for me the text-displayed forums are easier on my head (as opposed to all this clicking, opening, waiting for the next post to finally opne, etc., etc....

However, if more people would use the subject line to sum up or at least introduce their post, it would save a lot of wasted clicking and waiting for those of us who don't have either time or inclination to click and open post after post, only to so often find nothing threre of consequence or of interest to us.

There are some people who always use the subject line well... sure would be nice of others would follow suit. In fact, isn't it recommended in the forum guidelines (or something like that)?
take care,
qg

Ann Chaikin said:
This really helps me decide which entries to read and which to
skip. I agree with Shay and others that I prefer the "dip in" mode
of reading to the "wade through" mode. But I love it when people
put subject lines that say a bit about what is in their post. It
really helps when deciding which to read. Ann
--
also known as PT Kitty > ^..^
http://www.pbase.com/ptkitty/galleries
http://www.annchaikin.com

David A Melges · Aug 13, 2003

...people to put something in the subject line!

50 messages that all appear:

re: original subject

....turns me right away. Sometimes I don't get to a thread until its two days developed, and the idea of wading through all those posts most of which are duplicate ideas, or inane....

Help, please.....put something in the subject line!

dave

ernet said:
Hi Phil and all of you.

First of all sorry for my english.
Well, there are many times when there are many answers for sb.'s
thread.
To read them ( answers ) all we have to " click " many,many times
to read EVERY ANSWER. So my idea is:
is it possible to introduce to every Forums a function called "
SHOW ALL THE ANSWERS " ?
What means that after "click" on it we can see all the answers for
the actually reading subject/thread. A very usefull and comfortable
possibility, isn't it ?
How much time ( fingers, mouse ) we can save this way ! No more
waiting for loading every page withe every answer/comment of the
reading threat !

So once again;

what do you think about this idea ?

is it technically possible ?

can Phil do that and would like to make it and our live easier

;-)) ?

--
Ernet/ Tenre at work

--
Amazing what we can do with just three crayons, red green and blue!
http://yourbattlecreek.com/dave/

Mount K2 · Aug 13, 2003

Hi Nancy,

Well I don't think rewrite the codes would be the way to go, unless the interface is so bad and user unfriendly.

Since this is aready a good site, any major overhaul would do more damage than good most of the time.

But I was thinking more of enhancements that can be added to the current one. Suggestions along this lines would be more helpful than features that suit only certain users and cause inconveniece to others, as most come here because they like this format as oppose to others.

I for one don't go to other forums much as I find it difficult to follow the threads over there. I'm pretty much satified with the current interface aready.

As to which one would finally be implimented, would depend on how much benifit Phil thinks it would contribute to his site. Thats entirely up to him, I'm just putting out my thoughts for consideration (Being in the IT line myself).

Arjun Roychowdhury · Aug 13, 2003

Greetings,
as I thought - it was fairly trivial to write this function on the client side.

I wrote a quick perl script that takes as an input the forum id and message start id and grabs the complete thread to your local machine to aid in , say, printing. ( I got to code after 4 yrs , so I enjoyed it ;-). Its it raw form, but hey it works for me. Anyway, not sure if the moderator of this group would like the fact that people start using this to start bulk downloads, so Ill not be posting it till I am told its ok to do so (not that it would prevent any basic coder from writing one for herself, if they have not already done one)

regds
arjun

Arjun Roychowdhury said:
regds
arjun

Arjun Roychowdhury said:

Here is a possible solution:
Instead of Phil providing a 'server side' option to list
everything, maybe the 'reader' can automate getting all messages
(with a little help from the server)

Here is a way to do it.
Each message in this forum is of the link type:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1009&message=5831181

Unfortunately, it looks like the message no. has no specific order
or relevance within a thread.

Instead, if one could provide a URL such as
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1009&message=5831181 ;tid=0

where 'tid' is simply a new parameter that increases from 0 to N
for the full thread, and each time a tid is increased, it fetches
the next message, then its trivial for us to write a script which
say, calls something like wget to grab all messages till it returns
an error (will happen when tid is invalid).

There are different ways ofcourse - all we need is some sort of
thread identification we can iterate.

This is just an idea. With a little help from the formatting of the
URI for messages, we can push all of this to the client side, for
those who care.
Ofcourse, we can extend this concept to provide more qualifies so
that we can even re-organized based on threads locally.

regds
Arjun

ernet said:

Hi Phil and all of you.

First of all sorry for my english.
Well, there are many times when there are many answers for sb.'s
thread.
To read them ( answers ) all we have to " click " many,many times
to read EVERY ANSWER. So my idea is:
is it possible to introduce to every Forums a function called "
SHOW ALL THE ANSWERS " ?
What means that after "click" on it we can see all the answers for
the actually reading subject/thread. A very usefull and comfortable
possibility, isn't it ?
How much time ( fingers, mouse ) we can save this way ! No more
waiting for loading every page withe every answer/comment of the
reading threat !

So once again;

what do you think about this idea ?

is it technically possible ?

can Phil do that and would like to make it and our live easier

;-)) ?

--
Ernet/ Tenre at work

Click to expand...

--
--
http://www.pbase.com/arjunrc

Click to expand...

--
--
http://www.pbase.com/arjunrc

--
--
http://www.pbase.com/arjunrc

kiwi · Aug 14, 2003

Ann Chaikin said:
This really helps me decide which entries to read and which to
skip. I agree with Shay and others that I prefer the "dip in" mode
of reading to the "wade through" mode. But I love it when people
put subject lines that say a bit about what is in their post. It
really helps when deciding which to read. Ann

I totally agree Ann but the reality of free participation on the internet is that many (most?) don't (won't) observe that very simple convention. I actually find that the dpreview forums are much better over it than a lot of others and thank goodness we aren't cursed with a digest email option - it spares us all from having to deal with posts headed
"Re: Digest Message Number 26011"

Mike

farmor · Aug 14, 2003

Phil Askey said:
Yang said:

The best solution is to implement an option to allow the user to
switch between the two views:

Click to expand...

This I don't understand how will the bandwidth raise?

It means you only have to download the page one time and the text in the messages.
With this system you have to reload the whole page many times.
So the swith system is much better.

To Phil and STF'rs.Is it possible to make reading msgs.easier ?

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