Home Video - what's the point of 4K?

ShootMeAlready · Jul 29, 2016

You missed the boat. It doesnt matter whether its a 4k TV or 8k TV or greater. The biology/geometry barrier is that neither is better than FHD, if you watch your TV at more than 6 feet away. and its 40 inches diamter (yeah the standard size). Yes there are some great cases for shooting in 4k, but home movies viewed by the family on TV is not one of them. We should not try to over sell folks on gear. Time to digest, the facts and awaken from the the mesmerizing hype. I think most people drool over 4k because they view it 12 inches from their QHD screens, if only that was the target platform - JMHO

Bernard Carns · Jul 29, 2016

It just isn't so!

Unless you're shooting 1080p with a 3 sensor camera or a Faveon chip (I haven't seen one that does video yet) you only get 80% of 1080P.

4k downsampled to 1080p then played on a 4k screen alone looks way better than 1080p. 4k looks even better.

You can see the higher resolution of 4k on a 4k screen from more than 6' away.

I can even see it on a 28" 4k screen.

And I don't have to be touching the monitor with my nose.

Trust me.

I can.

BC

Michael Trenton · Jul 29, 2016

ShootMeAlready said:
You missed the boat. It doesnt matter whether its a 4k TV or 8k TV or greater. The biology/geometry barrier is that neither is better than FHD, if you watch your TV at more than 6 feet away. and its 40 inches diamter (yeah the standard size). Yes there are some great cases for shooting in 4k, but home movies viewed by the family on TV is not one of them. We should not try to over sell folks on gear. Time to digest, the facts and awaken from the the mesmerizing hype. I think most people drool over 4k because they view it 12 inches from their QHD screens, if only that was the target platform - JMHO

--
"Shoot Long and Prosper"

The important point is that most 1080 cameras shoot pixel binned so they look soft unlike 4K which look crips and sharp when played back in 1080, which is a difference you definitely will notice despite the biology/geometry barrier you keep referring to.

You ever buy Blu-ray films? it's a bit similar to how a soft crappy Blu-ray transfer of an older film compares to the crisp and clear Blu-ray transfer of a brand new Hollywood film - surely you are able to see the difference between the two?

And that's just a straight forward advantage of playing back 4K on a 1080 TV versus playing back soft pixel binned 1080 on the same TV. There is a huge difference and when I noticed that difference I never went back to shooting 1080.

And of course you conveniently ignore other advantages of shooting 4K like cropping, zooming and digital image stabilization in postproduction as well as others that have been mentioned in this thread.

Markr041 · Jul 29, 2016

ShootMeAlready said:
You missed the boat. It doesnt matter whether its a 4k TV or 8k TV or greater. The biology/geometry barrier is that neither is better than FHD, if you watch your TV at more than 6 feet away. and its 40 inches diamter (yeah the standard size). Yes there are some great cases for shooting in 4k, but home movies viewed by the family on TV is not one of them. We should not try to over sell folks on gear. Time to digest, the facts and awaken from the the mesmerizing hype. I think most people drool over 4k because they view it 12 inches from their QHD screens, if only that was the target platform - JMHO

Stemu · Jul 29, 2016

Consumer cameras develope all the time. I hope that soon 1080p will come out from camera as good as 4k what is downsampled to 1080p in computer. If you can do that in computer, you should be able to do that in camera too in near future. Then we would get "perfect" 1080p good enough for most people and much better than current 1080p from camera. I hope that manufacturers focus on this too and not only to improve 4k. Also why don't they offer 1440p as intermadiate resolution. There are many resultions in jpeg setting, why not in video?

GodSpeaks · Jul 30, 2016

I have been shooting HD video since it first arrived via miniDV camcorders. Now I shoot exclusively in 4K, no more ancient HD for me.

Yet, in ALL those years of shooting HD and now 4K, I have never once created a Blu-Ray disk. In fact, I never even bought a Blu-Ray player.

When I edit, I render my footage to the native format, be it HD or 4K, into a single file. That file then is transfered to a hard disk, which can be plugged into a media player capable of playing the format.

All movies I own are now in a hard disk format, mostly mkv, and played back using a media player on a large screen 4K SUHD TV.

Martin Meier · Jul 30, 2016

Same do I. I gave up fullHD two years ago - 4K is okay for me (haha, I have no desire for 8K

)

All my videos are on HDs (4TB drives for $100 each). My last writeable DVDs and BluRays are catching dust.

slickh · Jul 30, 2016

GodSpeaks said:
I have been shooting HD video since it first arrived via miniDV camcorders. Now I shoot exclusively in 4K, no more ancient HD for me.

Yet, in ALL those years of shooting HD and now 4K, I have never once created a Blu-Ray disk. In fact, I never even bought a Blu-Ray player.

When I edit, I render my footage to the native format, be it HD or 4K, into a single file. That file then is transfered to a hard disk, which can be plugged into a media player capable of playing the format.

All movies I own are now in a hard disk format, mostly mkv, and played back using a media player on a large screen 4K SUHD TV.

--
The greatest of mankind's criminals are those who delude themselves into thinking they have done 'the right thing.'
- Rayna Butler

Excuse my simply question, I am very old but young to video. Would you please tell me what media player you use to plug in your hard drive?

BillSprague · Jul 30, 2016

slickh said:
Excuse my simply question, I am very old but young to video. Would you please tell me what media player you use to plug in your hard drive?

Me too. What media player works for 4K?

Sean Nelson · Jul 30, 2016

BillSprague said:
slickh said:

Excuse my simply question, I am very old but young to video. Would you please tell me what media player you use to plug in your hard drive?

Click to expand...

Me too. What media player works for 4K?

Well, Windows Media Player on my Windows 7 system plays my 200Mbit/sec 4K clips, but I only have a 2K screen so of course it downscales to fit. But I have no doubt it would work fine on a 4K screen too. The resource intensive part is in reading the bitstream and decoding it, not in the display.

Ludvig · Jul 31, 2016

Sean Nelson said:
BillSprague said:

slickh said:

Excuse my simply question, I am very old but young to video. Would you please tell me what media player you use to plug in your hard drive?

Click to expand...

Me too. What media player works for 4K?

Click to expand...

Well, Windows Media Player on my Windows 7 system plays my 200Mbit/sec 4K clips, but I only have a 2K screen so of course it downscales to fit. But I have no doubt it would work fine on a 4K screen too. The resource intensive part is in reading the bitstream and decoding it, not in the display.

Just as a correction to what you said in your post:
I can't play UHD videos using Media Player in Windows 7 (I have tried on two different installations). On Windows 8.1 and Window 10 I can run UHD files with no problems.

Vesku · Jul 31, 2016

4k is actually best for home videos. Home videos has better video quality than commercial videos (movies, tv, blurays etc.). A good 4k home video camera has delivered over 2 years the ultimate video quality for amateur home users.

BillSprague · Jul 31, 2016

Sean Nelson said:
BillSprague said:

slickh said:

Excuse my simply question, I am very old but young to video. Would you please tell me what media player you use to plug in your hard drive?

Click to expand...

Me too. What media player works for 4K?

Click to expand...

Well, Windows Media Player on my Windows 7 system plays my 200Mbit/sec 4K clips, but I only have a 2K screen so of course it downscales to fit. But I have no doubt it would work fine on a 4K screen too. The resource intensive part is in reading the bitstream and decoding it, not in the display.

Sean,

It was "GodSpeaks" that wrote, "All movies I own are now in a hard disk format, mostly mkv, and played back using a media player on a large screen 4K SUHD TV."

I fishing for the name of a box or device that plugs into a TV that will play 4K media from a HDD to a 4K TV such as "GodSpeaks" seems to describe.

Sean Nelson · Jul 31, 2016

BillSprague said:
BillSprague said:

Well, Windows Media Player on my Windows 7 system plays my 200Mbit/sec 4K clips...

Click to expand...

I fishing for the name of a box or device that plugs into a TV that will play 4K media from a HDD to a 4K TV such as "GodSpeaks" seems to describe.

If you Google "4K media player" you'll get a bunch of hits, such as the Sony FMP-X10. Those are dedicated media player devices, but other equipment should be available as well. For example, I play FullHD movies from the USB port on my BluRay player - and since there are now 4K compatible BluRay players (I'm talking ones that play 4K BluRay discs, not ones that upscale FullHD to 4K) it stands to reason that you could play 4K video through the USB port of one of those.

By the way, you can configure your Windows computer as a DNLA server so that your TV can play movies from it directly over the network (assuming your TV is network connected). If you do that then all you need to do is to connect the hard drive to your Windows system and allow it to be accessed. I haven't tried this myself, but Googling "DLNA" will probably get you started. Here's one article that looks promising.

BillSprague · Jul 31, 2016

Sean Nelson said:
BillSprague said:

Sean Nelson said:

Well, Windows Media Player on my Windows 7 system plays my 200Mbit/sec 4K clips...

Click to expand...

I fishing for the name of a box or device that plugs into a TV that will play 4K media from a HDD to a 4K TV such as "GodSpeaks" seems to describe.

Click to expand...

If you Google "4K media player" you'll get a bunch of hits, such as the Sony FMP-X10. Those are dedicated media player devices, but other equipment should be available as well. For example, I play FullHD movies from the USB port on my BluRay player - and since there are now 4K compatible BluRay players (I'm talking ones that play 4K BluRay discs, not ones that upscale FullHD to 4K) it stands to reason that you could play 4K video through the USB port of one of those.

By the way, you can configure your Windows computer as a DNLA server so that your TV can play movies from it directly over the network (assuming your TV is network connected). If you do that then all you need to do is to connect the hard drive to your Windows system and allow it to be accessed. I haven't tried this myself, but Googling "DLNA" will probably get you started. Here's one article that looks promising.

Thanks Sean.

I did find the Sony and at around $700 seems pricy. Your suggestion of DNLA is interesting and I've always thought I should try it. I haven't yet.

In the early days of 1080p, getting it on your TV was not always easy. To fix that I bought a Western Digital WD TV "media player". It was kind of like a Roku but optimized more for playing media from a owner's HDD. I still have it, but never used it much beyond the "testing" phase.

I would still like to know what "GodSpeaks" was referring to as a "media player".

FWIW, I took a flash/thumb drive to Costco loaded with a few 4K clips straight from my camera and a few 4K videos out of Premier Elements. With the help of a curious clerk, we plugged it into the back of a couple 4K TVs in USB ports. The TV's remote was all that was needed to watch the clips and videos. I didn't try it, but I think a small, portable HDD would work just as well. No "media player" was needed.

I'm not sure of this, but apparently the first 4K TVs wouldn't do this and may have needed a "media player". I've read that most, if not all, of the 2016 models play their owners' home videos with little fuss. I hope daily that my 12 year old Panasonic HD 1080 TV have a catastrophic failure. I would shop for a 4K model with the best "home video" interface.

havanna60 · Jul 31, 2016

philm5d said:
So my question is if 4k is going to be down rezzd this way is there any point in shooting 4K in the first place? Also if viewed on a 4K TV is it then up-scaled back to 4K? If this is right it doesn't seem to make any sense to apply this "bottleneck" into the process.

Actually pretty valid qustions. So far only the consumer electronics makers, Panasonic/Sony/Samsung/Apple are supporting 4K. The most important/dominant camera maker, Canon, is pretty reluctant to give 4K in its consumer cameras. I guess, there is a reason.

I'd definitely wait to see what Canon is doing with consumer 4K. Canon sells twice as more cameras than the rest of the competition combined. 4K will not be widely adopted until Canon fully embraces 4K in its forthcoming cameras.

I'd definitely won't rush, I am evaluating 4K cameras, experimenting with them, but, I'd go for 4K, if and when Canon comes out with a sub $1500 APS-C dual-pixel camera with 4K, something like the 80D, but with 4K included.

Vesku · Jul 31, 2016

4k is a challenge for displays. Normal LCD TV has so weak viewing angle that when you watch close enough to see all the 4k resolution the image contrast and colors distorts in screen edges. Here is an example how my Panasonic AX800 (VA-panel) shows video when watching at close distance.

Faint edges at close distance.

If you want to watch TV very close choose a curved model or IPS-panel or OLED TV.

Stemu · Jul 31, 2016

Vesku, solution to your problem is long comfortable sofa distance

BillSprague · Jul 31, 2016

Miki Nemeth said:
...........I'd definitely wait to see what Canon is doing with consumer 4K. Canon sells twice as more cameras than the rest of the competition combined. 4K will not be widely adopted until Canon fully embraces 4K in its forthcoming cameras......

Except that Canon does not make TVs! Sony, Panasonic and Samsung make good ones. If you look at the details, it is pretty easy to shoot 4K on a Panasonic, Sony or Samsung camera and watch the 4K on a Panasonic, Sony or Samsung TV.

Now, if you are still in the "make a big print" world, Canon and Nikon are still competing. Canon even makes good printers.

I would not wait for Canon to make TVs or even endorse video as a primary endeavor.

Bernard Carns · Jul 31, 2016

XC10.

C series

$42,000 cine lenses.

Maybe you meant to say consumer 4k video as an endeavor.

They are definately in the video business.

(Canon)

Just not the one for mere mortals.

BC

Home Video - what's the point of 4K?

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