Digital at what cost?

You missed the point...
Please read my post again. I was NOT agreeing with Cookedraw's statement on HOLLYWOOD. I pointed out the trends of the chart he presented which contradicted his statement.

Of course the response was misplaced, should have been directly under Cookedraw.

As for your point of exceeding 100%, it was just a matter of same product being released on two media, Film and Digital. I am sure you are familiar with the VEN diagram.

If you still think I missed the point, whose point? Yours or Cookedraw?
 
I have read some of the responses which seem to agree that digital at a certain quality level and price point is easily less expensive than shooting film.

If I woke up tomorrow and all my gear was gone and I had to replace it posthaste I offer this comparison.

Starting from scratch:

Pentax 67 and 4 lenses gently used (generating 8400 x 6600 MP scanned files) vs Canon 5DsR or Pentax 645Z new with warranty (also both generating the approx. same file size) and four new w/warranty lenses.

The digital rigs will also require storage cards and batteries.

Cost for computer and software identical, say an iMac 27" and Adobe CC.

Cost for printer the same.

Cost for flatbed Epson scanner (which I need anyways but for the sake of argument I will add it to the analog camera's price tag )

It will take years of film and processing costs -accrued monthly over those years, and I self process the B&W, so possibly longer - to even out the cost of the initial hardware buy in, and that is if I never upgrade the digital camera equipment.

***

Of course this is only one scenario specifically designed to equalize the file size and IQ that I demand. There is other content beyond landscape and portraiture, such as pro sports, which honestly, there is no analog substitution for the results you can generate with a D5 or 1Dx2 or even the 645z .
 
"I soon yearned for a better camera, and picked up a used Zeiss Contina cheaply from a local camera shop , £25 sticks in my mind , and I used that happily for a while .

Then I joined the local camera club and found out about medium format - one of the older members 'kindly' sold me a Rolleiflex T along with a well used Mecablitz 500 , all for the princely sum of
£40 ! At this point I was still only 15 or16 and relying on pocket money to fund my hobby ."

In the early to mid 70's in England I was earning less that £25 per week.

I think that you can buy a much better s/h digital than that for a week's wage now.
I was still in high school then , and that money came out of my savings .

When I started my first job shortly afterwards , I earned £3 for doing a Saturday shift , which rose to £5 before long , and I could buy a tank of petrol for less than £10
 
I have read some of the responses which seem to agree that digital at a certain quality level and price point is easily less expensive than shooting film.

If I woke up tomorrow and all my gear was gone and I had to replace it posthaste I offer this comparison.

Starting from scratch:

Pentax 67 and 4 lenses gently used (generating 8400 x 6600 MP scanned files) vs Canon 5DsR or Pentax 645Z new with warranty (also both generating the approx. same file size) and four new w/warranty lenses.

The digital rigs will also require storage cards and batteries.

Cost for computer and software identical, say an iMac 27" and Adobe CC.

Cost for printer the same.

Cost for flatbed Epson scanner (which I need anyways but for the sake of argument I will add it to the analog camera's price tag )

It will take years of film and processing costs -accrued monthly over those years, and I self process the B&W, so possibly longer - to even out the cost of the initial hardware buy in, and that is if I never upgrade the digital camera equipment.

***

Of course this is only one scenario specifically designed to equalize the file size and IQ that I demand. There is other content beyond landscape and portraiture, such as pro sports, which honestly, there is no analog substitution for the results you can generate with a D5 or 1Dx2 or even the 645z .
If you are going to go with a used film camera, you should compare with a used digital body.

One could also make a case that you should compare a fully equipped darkroom to the fully equipped computer.
 
In a current thread here on this forum we were discussing the decline in DSLR sales and dedicated cameras in general and then someone mentioned that people shifted from film to digital because it was cheaper to use a digital camera.
It is cheaper for most people. But "cheaper" isn't the main consideration; the main consideration is convenience, utility, and versatility.
I'm just wondering if digital photography is really less expensive than film (was) and I'm also speculating that the true cost of digital cameras and all the equipment required to share images with friends and family (apart from the obvious smartphone option) may have a significant impact on camera sales.
"All the equipment" to share images? You just need an email address, USB key, CD, DVD, or the like to "share" your imagery. Basically it shouldn't cost you much of anything to share 100,000 images with friends.
If you look at the cost per image, digital may have an edge but that also implies that more images are taken using the more recent technology however, I think the cost per "keeper" has sky rocketed.
Why are you even caring about the cost-per-keeper? Whether or not you "keep" a shot taken with an 8x10 view camera, doesn't have any bearing on you having to pay for the film, likewise any other photographs taken on any size film. You had to buy it, in order to shoot it, and whether or not you "keep" it or not isn't relevant.
When I bought my first SLR, I got a Pentax K1000 used, for about $60 and a roll of film was $2 and getting 24 prints made was about $4.
I still use a K1000 (wonderful manual camera). The "cost" isn't just about paying for film, but also having to get in the car, travel across town to buy film, traveling to submit the film for development, and traveling to pickup the film. It's that much more time in traffic, waiting in line, having to sort through slides or prints to weed out the ones that I don't have to pay for, etc... I don't like doing that. I'm not even going to go into detail on having to order, load, mail out medium format film with notes about processing, then picking up the prints only to find they're jacked up, having to pick up do-overs, etc..

Processing the film yourself? hahaha... never liked it and I hope I never have to experience it again.
Now, the average "good" digital camera with kit lens is about $1000.
Fair enough... but you would've spent a lot more than that shooting medium format film back in the 1980's. with less over all latitude than you'd have now with a Canon 7D and kit lens.
A 64 bit PC running an Intel i7 processor with a 1TB hard drive and good specs is also near the $1000 mark.
Huh? What are you talking about? i7? What are you processing, video? I easily process 50mp files, from a medium format digital camera, each file hundreds of megabytes. I can be often found in a Starbucks, sipping a green tea frap, processing those files on a 12" Apple Macbook, 2.2, 8gig ram, 512 ssd, photoshop CS6. I can process using a $500 HP from WalMart running some slow "efficient" processor as well. While I generally use a much more powerful 27" iMac or a HP workstation when I really need to speed things up or doing heavy duty processing; it's a luxury, not a requirement.
Then I have to pay $50/month for web service and $10 for Adobe Creative Cloud.
That's because you want to, not because you have to. A person doesn't even remotely need CC to do photo processing. I use CS6. Other than the initial outlay; doesn't cost me a dime and I don't need the CC "updates".
Of course, I need some faster lenses because modern kit lenses are slow, not like the 50/1.8 primes they used to put even on cheap SLR's back in the day so, another $1000 for a good lens or two.
Again, you're talking about wants, not needs. Whether I'm shooting film or digital, I'm going to buy premium FF lenses. So that isn't a digital or film dependent expense.
Holy cow, that's $3000 right out of the gate and that doesn't include the recurring monthly expenses or upgrading every so many years due to technology obsolescence. On the other hand, I still have my K1000 and it takes pretty pictures.
My K1000 doesn't allow me to switch from 100 iso to 12800 iso at the twirl of a button... does yours? My Canon 5D2 at 3200 iso looks better than 3200 iso film in my opinion- what do you think?
Given the fact that in film days, we shot less frames with greater care, is digital photography really less expensive? And if not, may that be at least one reason people aren't buying as many units anymore?
I've a client at 5:45am. I'm shooting on the side of a building. ISO 100-3200. We move to the Gulf of Mexico, and I'm shooting with a 6 stop ND filter on the lens... subject in whispy surf. Next I'm indoors; light pouring in from side window through curtains, subject is on a staircase, I'm at iso 100-1600, 3200, and at times 12800 depending on the location in the house and whether or not it's practical to use a tripod... there is absolutely no way, do I ever want to go back to having to rely only on film.

I'll still shoot some film today because digital just can't match the look of film without going to great lengths. However, I am so thankful to have digital technology at my fingertips as it totally changed not only my photography, but that of most people generally speaking. I don't shoot faster just because I have a digital camera no more than I'd shoot faster with a Nikon F6 with a grip and 8fps at my disposal.

Digital isn't "better" by default, but it is "better" generally speaking for most photographers.

:)

--

Teila K. Day
http://teiladay.com
 
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All but one of mine are gone :(

That means my lovely Nikon F3, Nikon FM , Nikon FM2, Nikon F100, a Mamiya 7, a Leica M6 and a Leica M4-2 along with all their lenses.

I have kept an tiny and pocketable Olympus mju which is loaded with Black and White film and is on standby to record the evidence in case I am ever involved in a road accident (assuming that I am conscious and able to use it).

I sometimes feel nostalgic for those old cameras and my lovely darkroom, but when I look more soberly at what was possible then and what is possible now with a couple of Canon DSLRs, a Canon compact, an iMac and an inkjet printer then I can 't help but think how lucky we are compared to previous generations of photographers.

@begin(rant)

But it is those of us brought up on manual cameras, film and darkroom chemistry that can most appreciate what technology now gives us. It is so annoying to see someone barely out of nappies complaining about slow tracking-AF or about a smidgeon of digital noise at ISO 25,600.

@end(rant)

Does film have any use these days? Perhaps if I was going to spend a year or two away from civilisation, with no access to electricity, then a fully manual camera and a bag full of film would be the way to go. But how likely is that? [Answer: Not very]
Funny you should mention that mju - I keep a Rollei 35S in the glovebox of one of my cars for the same reason , even though I would more likely reach for my iPhone these days .

I still have my old film bodies upstairs , partly for nostalgia , and partly because they would raise very little and I still use the lenses etc with my digital kit .

--
With kind regards
Derek.
:)
:)
 
If digital photography was something that cost $ 20,000, start up cost... maybe cost would matter, but it is not that expensive.

Even with my PC I can flip through a thousand images, comfortably. With my tablet, I am even more comfortable.

Going to the directory where they are stored is easier than pulling them out of some drawer. And putting them back in the drawer, when I have seen enough.

There's no hassle of sending the photos out for development. I can see them soon after I get home from wherever I went. Even before that, on the camera's little screen.

I can send them to friends, very easily.

And lots of other reasons. Digital is just much more fun. Forgetting about cost.
 
Great post. Almost missed the TIC here. So very funny comparisons. 50 a month for software, haha.

You are not going to tell me that you were serious after all, do You?
 
Never said film was cheaper than digital. It can be in some cases there are plenty of sources on line that can explain this better than I but, for the average user digital is more convenient and generally less expensive.

That was not my point. My point was that the rising costs in digital imaging and sharing are detrimental to dedicated digital camera sales, especially DSLR's and any interchangeable lens systems.

What I find fascinating is how many veterans have come out of the woodwork to explain to me how cheap digital photography can be but that philosophy is almost NEVER put into practice among the DSLR promoters, RAW shooters, gear hounds and lens pushers. I recommend an FZ1000 to someone and I get bashed around like a pinata. Shoot with a kit lens? Oh heavens no, only beginners shoot with kit lenses. D3200, you must be joking, it doesn't have AF fine tuning like the D7200. I can go on and on. Just the pressure to upgrade to FF is overwhelming on this site.

Fact is, the upfront costs in digital can be staggering. An A7rII with a couple of good zooms can well exceed $6000-$7000 and that doesn't include tripods, flashes, bags, you name it. Then you need a high performance PC and fast internet connection. This is a fact. That's not even an extreme example.

Another fact is that people have rejected compact cameras in favor of cell phones. Why? Simple, they obviously don't think a dedicated digital camera is worth the additional cost and inconvenience! Period, end of discussion. I just went one step further in suggesting that digital cameras are to smartphones what film cameras were to digital. Nobody got that. You all flew off on a tangent about film vs. digital. OMG.

This isn't a discussion forum, it's a rip some guy to shreds for thinking out of the box forum.

Bunch of narrow minded hypocrites if you ask me.
 
All of the fans of analog film photography say you need a digital scanner.

Isn't a digital scanner "digital?"
 
This is the flaw of the comparison . If you want to compare analog and digital, don't digitalize.

It's not a surprise that so few people here have seen modern positive film displayed by projector on a goood screen or did go to the cinema before the digital age. Do you judge your DSLR by taking a film photograph of your computer screen ?

--

" Use the shutter button on the headset cord " - Leonardo Da Vinci
 
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All of the fans of analog film photography say you need a digital scanner.

Isn't a digital scanner "digital?"

--
Marty
http://www.fluidr.com/photos/marty4650/sets/72157606210120132
http://www.flickr.com/photos/marty4650/sets/72157606210120132/show/
my blog: http://marty4650.blogspot.com/
Of course it is...that is why many of us advocate the hybrid workflow.
More like a tall concrete barrier than any sort of flow.
What the scanner isn't though...is a fake Bayer interpolated color machine truncated to 8, 12 or 14 bit color. It can also provide resolution far greater than current digital cameras if we choose the right formats.
Lol! A closer look at the film grain, great!
I find it odd that some people think using a scanner for film somehow makes it the same as a digital camera. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Okay, you got a self-evident one right.
 
All of the fans of analog film photography say you need a digital scanner.

Isn't a digital scanner "digital?"

--
Marty
http://www.fluidr.com/photos/marty4650/sets/72157606210120132
http://www.flickr.com/photos/marty4650/sets/72157606210120132/show/
my blog: http://marty4650.blogspot.com/
Of course it is...that is why many of us advocate the hybrid workflow.
More like a tall concrete barrier than any sort of flow.
Barrier? I drop the film off, and get great scans back. Easy. Hardly a barrier as it is advocated by film shooting pros worldwide. Stick with what you know
How many days turnaround time, Dave?
What the scanner isn't though...is a fake Bayer interpolated color machine truncated to 8, 12 or 14 bit color. It can also provide resolution far greater than current digital cameras if we choose the right formats.
Lol! A closer look at the film grain, great!
Bit depth has nothing to do with resolving grain. And my MF and 4x5 is grain free even in huge prints. Stick with what you know.
You've never shown us a single shot you've taken with any of your phantom "grain free" 4X5 or medium format film cameras to prove your point, and I don't expect you to start now. As a reformed film shooter of over fifty years, everything from a box Brownie though four different medium formats to 4X5, I have yet to see "grain free." Ansel Adams and Josef Karsh prints made with enormous view cameras are far from "grain free." Simply preposterous.

As usual.



Ansel Adams
Ansel Adams
 
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It is strange. If you did shoot so much film you should know that film can be virtually grain free at low ISO . How large do you project the positives and how close do you view them ?
 
It is strange. If you did shoot so much film you should know that film can be virtually grain free at low ISO .
Show us one of your "grain free" film shots, by all means.
How large do you project the positives and how close do you view them ?
Doesn't take much:

David Muench
David Muench
 
All of the fans of analog film photography say you need a digital scanner.

Isn't a digital scanner "digital?"
Of course it is...that is why many of us advocate the hybrid workflow. What the scanner isn't though...is a fake Bayer interpolated color machine truncated to 8, 12 or 14 bit color. It can also provide resolution far greater than current digital cameras if we choose the right formats.

I find it odd that some people think using a scanner for film somehow makes it the same as a digital camera. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Except for one important thing.

A digital scanner IS a digital camera.

Your hybrid workflow consists of taking a photo with an analog film camera, then photographing the negative (or positive) with a digital scanner to get a bitmap, then processing that bitmap with digital software to end up with a jpeg.

You aren't advocating film photography, you are advocating "mostly digital photography."

Which means we essentially agree.

Someone who truly believes analog is better would be using a real darkroom, with actual chemicals and stuff....
 
It is strange. If you did shoot so much film you should know that film can be virtually grain free at low ISO .
Show us one of your "grain free" film shots, by all means.
How large do you project the positives and how close do you view them ?
Doesn't take much:

David Muench
David Muench
A 2MP digital image ?!

How large do you project your slides and what film do you use ?

You can't proove anything by posting a 2MP digital image . I guess you did not project positive film the last 20 years with the top of the range ISO100 or ISO50 film but it is just a guess. If you did you would know that it looks pretty fantastic.

--

" Use the shutter button on the headset cord " - Leonardo Da Vinci
 
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to DenWil:
In addition to Michael Fryd's comment, . . .


For IRS Tax purpose, what are your usage and cost allocations.
Following-up onMichael's point, what is the allocated cost of your darkroom SPACE?
Did you factored the cost of ventilation system, chemical disposal, possibly permit?

Have you considered storage space for file (negatives) and file management system?

How much is CONVENIENCE worth to you, specially when you travel. To get the equivalent of a 64 gigabyte SD card, how many films would you have to carry and how much time would you use to change film cartridges to get rough 1,200 raw shots - depending on the make and model digital camera. Looking at my D800, a 64GB SD yields 800 RAW shots or 2,000 Large Fine JPEG.

Would you ignore the cost of carrying different kinds of films.

In your cost evaluation, have you priced the cost of PRISTINE used film camera and lenses you are comparing to slightly used digital camera of the same format? What about the cost of a NEW ANALOG camera any idea of WHERE to find one and the cost?

. . . more annotations
I have read some of the responses which seem to agree that digital at a certain quality level and price point is easily less expensive than shooting film.

If I woke up tomorrow and all my gear was gone and I had to replace it posthaste I offer this comparison.

Starting from scratch:

Pentax 67 and 4 lenses gently used (generating 8400 x 6600 MP scanned files) vs Canon 5DsR or Pentax 645Z new with warranty (also both generating the approx. same file size) and four new w/warranty lenses.
I don't know anything about those cameras, are they analog? If so, have you ACTUALLY found sellers and the asking price?
The digital rigs will also require storage cards and batteries.
Analog requires film. Where do you buy films in less than a day's notice. The metering system and electro-magnetic shutter of analog camera requires batteries . . . which are more expensive and not readily available. If you are going to preserve the negatives (or slides) you need SUITABLE AIR CONDITIONED storage space.
Cost for computer and software identical, say an iMac 27" and Adobe CC.
Are you going to use the computer EXCLUSIVELY for photography?
Again, exclusively for photography?
Cost for flatbed Epson scanner (which I need anyways but for the sake of argument I will add it to the analog camera's price tag )
NO, Digital camera does NOT require this. But if you are going ANALOG, why then scan?
You can't have it both ways. If you want to send the finish product across states or overseas, you have to send the PRINTS you made in your darkroom. But if you must have scanner, allocate that cost to Analog camera.
It will take years of film and processing costs -accrued monthly over those years, and I self process the B&W, so possibly longer -
So you are comparing the cost of B&W to the cost of multi-media afforded by digital camera. Hmmmm, just like comparing the cost of an East German made Travant (2 cylinder engine, no heater, no A/C, 3 speed manual transmission) to that of a modern VW Jetta and justifying the comparison by saying I only drive under 30 mph and I don't need A/C anyway.
to even out the cost of the initial hardware buy in, and that is if I never upgrade the digital camera equipment.
I too, BUILT my own darkroom and did process colors. I made B&W prints up to 18"x14" but was limited to 8"x10" color prints. I did the Air-handling ventilation system as well as the chemical disposal system.
***

Of course this is only one scenario specifically designed to equalize the file size and IQ that I demand. There is other content beyond landscape and portraiture, such as pro sports, which honestly, there is no analog substitution for the results you can generate with a D5 or 1Dx2 or even the 645z .
If you are going to go with a used film camera, you should compare with a used digital body.

One could also make a case that you should compare a fully equipped darkroom to the fully equipped computer.
 

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