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The outcome of the Official 10D AF test in Korea

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Solo said:
3. The three recalibrated 10Ds produced much sharper results than
the non-adjusted.
Click to expand...
This is what bothers most people. On this tiny sample set, this implies to get the best out of your camera you have to get it recalibrated. I have always believed this number is larger than some on this forum admit; the number 1% is thrown around a lot.

Jason
 
DavidP said:
How else to improve the odds? LOL.

If they were testing at f/1.8, they shouldn't have needed a flash
for illumination (if so, the test was poorly designed).

So, the only reason I can think of would be to use the AF-Assist.

I hope somebody with more details will chime in and clear some of
these things up for us.
Click to expand...
Let's do our own test. Let's get together a little list of things to shoot (ruler, human head, and other real-world stuff) and a script and do it. And I'd love to participate as soon as my replacement 10d arrives.

This way, instead of 279 shots, we can take about 100 each and swamp them with a real test with a few hundred bodies (some recalibrated, some not). Our test and stats will become the real test. Let's raise the bar.

I would like to know what the deal is with this machine. Like can it be calibrated by Canon when sent in with a good chance of getting a fix.
Thanks for reading.
 
There are 2 interesting facts:

"1. Out of 279 shots taken using 50mm f/1.8, 17 shots failed to nail the focus point. That translates into 6.8% focus error, which Canon concluded as an acceptable range."

"3.The three recalibrated 10Ds produced much sharper results than the non-adjusted."

I don't get that together.If the 3 calibrated cameras produced much sharper pictures,that implies,that the uncalibrated cameras did not produce

really sharp pictures.If that is the case,it's very strange,that only 17 shots out of 279 "failed to nail the focus point".

Stefan
Jason Hutchinson said:
Solo said:
3. The three recalibrated 10Ds produced much sharper results than
the non-adjusted.
Click to expand...
This is what bothers most people. On this tiny sample set, this
implies to get the best out of your camera you have to get it
recalibrated. I have always believed this number is larger than
some on this forum admit; the number 1% is thrown around a lot.

Jason
Click to expand...
 
Jason Hutchinson said:
Solo said:
3. The three recalibrated 10Ds produced much sharper results than
the non-adjusted.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
what does it mean "much sharper results"? does it mean that when they weren't participating in their share of the 6.8% (I hope I got the number right) autofocus failures, they were "more spot on" than the others? This is something we need to quantify carefully if we want to do our own test with a couple hundred willing participants from this forum.
Jason Hutchinson said:
This is what bothers most people. On this tiny sample set, this
implies to get the best out of your camera you have to get it
recalibrated. I have always believed this number is larger than
some on this forum admit; the number 1% is thrown around a lot.

Jason
Click to expand...
Jason, I'm thinking we will never know the exact number which need recalibration. Or more precisely "calibration", because it seems it was never really done the first time thru the factory. I've just returned my first 10d and it was a struggle to part with it because I liked how much better it seemed than my d30 (except for the autofocus). And there is a part of me which likes the feeling of buying something really good that battled a lot with the idea of having somehow made a mistake. But I said, "let's do it!" and I packed it up and they're sending me another one and what's going to happen with that one is another story.
Bob
 
David,

I'm new to this issue because I've been deliberately ignoring it while I waited for the dust to settle on the 10D. I did the same before I bought the d30.

The question: does it seem to you it's possible to get a 10d, send it in to the Canon folks and have them check it and calibrate it properly, and end up with a 10d that works really good (say 1% AF errors)?

If you don't want to reply on this thread, email me or I'll send you my phone number (call collect) because I really liked the way the 10d had solved a few of the problems with the d30, but the ability to obtain a properly-focused image is on the top of my list.
Thanks.
Bob
 
D100 will give you that regardless of what they claim! If I have out of focus shots they're always on the long heavy telephotos without VR. I can use the lightweight 70 - 300 ED D upto about 250mm hand held without issue.

The D100 may have several issues but focus problems aren't one of them.

Also, where's the link to this focus test?
 
If calibration makes the AF work more accurately, why aren't they calibrated the same way before they leave the factory????

Good question.

Rich
Stefan Klein said:
"1. Out of 279 shots taken using 50mm f/1.8, 17 shots failed to
nail the focus point. That translates into 6.8% focus error, which
Canon concluded as an acceptable range."

"3.The three recalibrated 10Ds produced much sharper results than
the non-adjusted."

I don't get that together.If the 3 calibrated cameras produced much
sharper pictures,that implies,that the uncalibrated cameras did not
produce
really sharp pictures.If that is the case,it's very strange,that
only 17 shots out of 279 "failed to nail the focus point".

Stefan
Jason Hutchinson said:
Solo said:
3. The three recalibrated 10Ds produced much sharper results than
the non-adjusted.
Click to expand...
This is what bothers most people. On this tiny sample set, this
implies to get the best out of your camera you have to get it
recalibrated. I have always believed this number is larger than
some on this forum admit; the number 1% is thrown around a lot.

Jason
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
I don't think 6.8% accounts for all the 10Ds shipped. These are the cameras sent in by users as defective. Taking into account that some of the shots were handheld at f/1.8, 6.8% in fact does not sound that bad.
Stefan Schott said:
Solo said:
I haven’t had a chance to browse through the forum to see if anyone
else already posted the news. But, here’s an update on what
happened at the official testing of AF issue among the Korean SLR
club that began to boycott 10D.

The test was done in the presence of 5 SLR club member, Canon
technical team, and LG reps. The test equipment was one 1Ds, one
Nikon D100 and five 10D. Of the five 10d’s 3 of them had already
gone through service and 2 of them had not. Apparently all five
10Ds tested were presented by SLR club as defective or problematic
even after recalibration [Correct me if I am wrong, my Korean is
very rusty].

Here’s a brief summary of the result
1. Out of 279 shots taken using 50mm f/1.8, 17 shots failed to nail
the focus point. That translates into 6.8% focus error, which
Canon concluded as an acceptable range.
2. There was no correlation b/w focus failure and serial number of
the camera tested. The serial numbers of the 10Ds included
0330-,0530-,0730-.
3. The three recalibrated 10Ds produced much sharper results than
the non-adjusted.
4. The Canon’s position after the test was that there is no
focusing issue with 10Ds in production.
5. SLR club members seemed to agree on this point as well, at east
on an official note.

Here are some other tidbits that came out of this meeting.
1. On average 10% of Korean 10D users went back for service.
According to Canon, this number is much higher than those seen in
any other countries.
2. Of 1D, 1Ds and 10D, 10D, according to Canon, 10D sensor has the
highest AF sensitivity, which doesn’t mean it’s better [I couldn’t
quite understand this point].
3. Firmware 1.0.1 has nothing to do with any AF issues.
4. According to the test, 10D demonstrated higher focusing accuracy
than Nikon D100 [no quantitative test results were given].
5. LG/Canon stated that any focus recalibration after this meeting
would be done using a standard body and lens shipped from Canon,
Japan to avoid any further compatibility issue between different
lenses and bodies.
6. Another surprising outcome was that LG would extend their
warranty service to 2 years from the date the camera goes through
service.

Now, my personal conclusion!
1. There apparently exist some 10D with focusing problem, but they
seem to fall under the manufacturer’s acceptable quality control
error.
2. At least in Korean DSLR user circle, the majority of focusing
issues reported on their site were more psychological than factual.
3. Here’s the last but not the least. We should stop posting or
reading about this AF woes and go out and take pictures. Once
there was a time when this forum was about photography and not
photo gear.

Happy clicking….

Solo
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Sheesh. f/5.6 and f/4? Ray charles could focus with that kinda f/stop.

Did they turn off the AF-Assist?

What a terrible test. And they still didn't get good results?
Solo said:
Ok. I digged the site to find out more info. Here'e more accurate
info.The flash shots were taken with 550EX @ 1/250 f/5.6 and with
420EX @1/250 f/4 both in manual mode.

http://www.slrclub.com/bbs/view.php?id=service&page=14&sn1=&sid1=&divpage=1&sn=off&sid=off&ss=on&sc=off&select_arrange=headnum&desc=asc&no=610
Click to expand...
--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise

'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers
 
It really depends on your definition of "AF error". If you include shots that are difficult for any AF system to do well, or if you include "user error", then I'd say no way.

If you say well-lit contrasty subjects that are large enough so that the AF sensor can't pick something else instead, then I'd say you should be able to get less than 1% AF errors. But that depends on just how you define an error.

Is within 1 DOF sufficient not to be an error? Then I'd say without a doubt you could achieve this accuracy.

Is within 0.01 DOF what you're looking for? Then, no way.
Robert Burkhalter said:
I'm new to this issue because I've been deliberately ignoring it
while I waited for the dust to settle on the 10D. I did the same
before I bought the d30.
The question: does it seem to you it's possible to get a 10d, send
it in to the Canon folks and have them check it and calibrate it
properly, and end up with a 10d that works really good (say 1% AF
errors)?
If you don't want to reply on this thread, email me or I'll send
you my phone number (call collect) because I really liked the way
the 10d had solved a few of the problems with the d30, but the
ability to obtain a properly-focused image is on the top of my list.
Click to expand...
--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise

'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers
 
Solo said:
Now, my personal conclusion!
1. There apparently exist some 10D with focusing problem, but they
seem to fall under the manufacturer’s acceptable quality control
error.
2. At least in Korean DSLR user circle, the majority of focusing
issues reported on their site were more psychological than factual.
3. Here’s the last but not the least. We should stop posting or
reading about this AF woes and go out and take pictures. Once
there was a time when this forum was about photography and not
photo gear.

Happy clicking….

Solo
Click to expand...
--

http://koti.phnet.fi/arriutto/index.htm
taking photos and flyfishing ... that's all that matters
 
But then again I actually read the post and feel no need to make things up which were not there. There is no mention about a flash being use, why discuss that? There is no imformation about how the test was conducted, why make things up about it?

What WAS reported was this:

"4. The Canon’s position after the test was that there is no focusing issue with 10Ds in production."

"5. SLR club members seemed to agree on this point as well, at east on an official note."

I did read point 5, I assume most of us did.

I also noted this, I assume you missed it:

"4. According to the test, 10D demonstrated higher focusing accuracy than Nikon D100 [no quantitative test results were given]."

Since both cameras were tested under the same circumstances, one COULD conclude that the D100 has significant focus problems which only you can be counted on to create a true story made up from the legendary past to explain. Please go to the Nikon SLR form and proceed post haste. They need you. Honest.

By the way, what was actually said was that 10% is the number of cameras in for servicing, no mention of focus issues. And that number (according to what was written) is much higher that those reported in other countries. I don't know what to make of that, but then again I don't live in Korea, nor do you.

But thanks for playing. So, Don Pardow, do we have some lovely parting gifts for the contestant?

John
--
John Fisher
South Beach, Miami
http://www.johnfisher.com/models.htm
(305) 534-9322
 
Being a native Korean living in LA, I've been following slrclub forum closely for awhile. Slrclub members were much more vocal than dpreview members on focusing issues, even went far as to boycott 10D. It seems clear that after the test slrclub members are satisfied by the outcome. If those hyper-sensitive members are satisfied by the outcome, then I must conclude that focusing issue is not a design flaw.
But I can't help wonder why my 10D misses focus once in awhile.
John Fisher said:
But then again I actually read the post and feel no need to make
things up which were not there. There is no mention about a flash
being use, why discuss that? There is no imformation about how the
test was conducted, why make things up about it?

What WAS reported was this:

"4. The Canon’s position after the test was that there is no
focusing issue with 10Ds in production."

"5. SLR club members seemed to agree on this point as well, at east
on an official note."

I did read point 5, I assume most of us did.

I also noted this, I assume you missed it:

"4. According to the test, 10D demonstrated higher focusing
accuracy than Nikon D100 [no quantitative test results were given]."

Since both cameras were tested under the same circumstances, one
COULD conclude that the D100 has significant focus problems which
only you can be counted on to create a true story made up from the
legendary past to explain. Please go to the Nikon SLR form and
proceed post haste. They need you. Honest.

By the way, what was actually said was that 10% is the number of
cameras in for servicing, no mention of focus issues. And that
number (according to what was written) is much higher that those
reported in other countries. I don't know what to make of that, but
then again I don't live in Korea, nor do you.

But thanks for playing. So, Don Pardow, do we have some lovely
parting gifts for the contestant?

John
--
John Fisher
South Beach, Miami
http://www.johnfisher.com/models.htm
(305) 534-9322
Click to expand...
 
Perhaps you should read MORE of the posts in this thread than just the first one.

There WAS mention that a flash was used.

And that shots were taken at f/4 and f/5.6
John Fisher said:
But then again I actually read the post and feel no need to make
things up which were not there. There is no mention about a flash
being use, why discuss that? There is no imformation about how the
test was conducted, why make things up about it?
Click to expand...
--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise

'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers
 
David, as I followed the posts on slrclub.com, I don't think it would be fair to say that all 10% of the users were actually having AF problem. Most of these users were first timers who were initially very satisfied with 10D, but as the rumors of focus woe started to circulate on the forum, many of them became paranoid. They "began" to lose sleep and began to complain about every little out-of-focus shot, of which I think most them were user error. When SLR reps invited user to send in their cameras with test shots, only five turned up. That number should give us an idea of the real extent of this focusing woe.
DavidP said:
Assuming that these were actual AF targets (high contrast) shot
under good light, there's just no excuse for a 6.8% error rate in
the AF.

Especially when a flash was used (did they turn off the AF-Assist?).

These aren't "real world shots" we're talking about. Presuambly
they were very controlled tests that an AF system should be able to
handle with ease.
John Fisher said:
....if you actually read the post.

"1. Out of 279 shots taken using 50mm f/1.8, 17 shots failed to
nail the focus point. That translates into 6.8% focus error, which
Canon concluded as an acceptable range."

The 6% has nothing to do with QC on production units, it has to do
with individual pictures take by all of the cameras. This
translates to approximately 2 pictures per 36 shot roll of film
which are not perfectly focused. While this may seem like the end
of the world to some, others are free to observe how silly it seems
to think this is a real world problem.

By the way from the actual statements made (as opposed to made up
stuff by some less alert people), it would seem that this test lead
to the conclusion by the Korean Camera Club that there was no
significant problem concerning the focus capabilities of the EOS
10D.
Click to expand...
--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise

'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and
tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers
Click to expand...
 
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