reach reached 150

I disagree with the idea of using the term "reach" at all in this context. I don't use it that way, and I recommend that no one else uses it that way.
It seems like you just have a semantics issue with the word, not with the practical choices people are making, regardless of the word.
It seems? I did not claim in this current thread to be talking about practical choices. I did that in the thread which this one spun off of, and have done so in many threads at this website. I've written many times of empirical aspects of the choices:

A larger sensor, with the same lens and subject distance, allows more room for tracking a moving subject which might work its way out of the frame with a smaller sensor. Unless the larger sensor has a higher pixel density, however, it will capture less detail of the subject than the smaller sensor.

The metering and AF may be more relevant with a smaller sensor (and with a crop mode using the LCD and on-sensor AF).

The amount of light you get from the subject (exposure times area) for any given shutter speed has no relation to the sensor size, but rather, to the size of your effective physical aperture. IOW, a FF sensor does NOT work like a bigger antenna that is more sensitive to weak signals; only the lens does that.

Etc.
Anyway, people are going to use the word to describe that desirable attribute regardless of your recommendation.
People do a lot of things that I wouldn't do. My goal is to help people be aware of the difference between scaling and proximity, real or apparent, and hope that at least a few people might adopt what I think is better terminology.
That's my point. "Reaching" requires a change of perspective.
No it doesn't. A long reach is a very desirable thing for a boxer to have. His goal it to punch the other guy without getting closer.

Most people think of reach as how far you can touch something without moving from your position. You only have to move if you can't reach it.

Wildlife photographers certainly want to get close, but there's always going to be a limit, and then they want reach. And if a 400mm lens on 24MP APS-C gives them more detail in a print than 400mm on 36MP FF, that gives them the reach they want.

I'm not sure why any of this should be controversial, unless you just want to argue the semantics of it. The important thing to the photographer is what he can do with the camera & lens, not the definition of the word "reach".
Well, none of this is as important as good health, finding sustainable energy and food sources, or Peace on Earth.

However, what I was talking about is the choice of the term "reach"; it is not used consistently with a single meaning among the people who use it, and it has implications which are not a good representation of what is happening.

Yes, long arms have more reach, because they get your hands closer to what you are interested in. Longer arms give you true reach for photographing flowers on the other side of the fence, or the interesting insect on your ceiling. So can a monopod and a remote release. For a bird 100 feet away, your arms are irrelevant and what matters is how big the subject is on your sensor, combined with how many pixels it falls on (both are desirable, but just one is still a plus). That is due to pixel density and magnification; not to anything that resembles actually reaching something. I don't use a longer lens or a TC or smaller pixels or any combination thereof to make it look like I am closer to, or "reached" the subject. I do it so as to get more resolution of the subject, and the idea of the subject "looking closer" plays no role; only literally getting closer does that.

Scaling and proximity are independent things.
 
No, it's not, it's true. "AOV" or "FOV" are short for "angle of view" or "field of view". "Reach" is short for "resolving power". And if you're only interested in angle of view, a cropping tool will indeed change it.
So then, would you say that all other things being equal, ISO 25 film has more "reach" than ISO 800 film? I wonder why, though, if the term "resolution" does a much cleaner job, with no chance of conflating concepts with apparent proximity?
 
No, it's not, it's true. "AOV" or "FOV" are short for "angle of view" or "field of view". "Reach" is short for "resolving power". And if you're only interested in angle of view, a cropping tool will indeed change it.
So then, would you say that all other things being equal, ISO 25 film has more "reach" than ISO 800 film? I wonder why, though, if the term "resolution" does a much cleaner job, with no chance of conflating concepts with apparent proximity?
Hard to tell what you're trying to say here since you re-booted this thread.
 
It seems? I did not claim in this current thread to be talking about practical choices. I did that in the thread which this one spun off of, and have done so in many threads at this website.
I missed most of that thread ...
OK, I agree with those points.
People do a lot of things that I wouldn't do. My goal is to help people be aware of the difference between scaling and proximity, real or apparent, and hope that at least a few people might adopt what I think is better terminology.
Do you have better terminology ? Instead of "24MP APS-C has more reach than 36MP FF" do you have another (concise) way of saying it ? Spelling out the technicalities in detail may be clear, but if someone wants to say, in conversation "I chose the D7200 over the D750 for its reach for shooting wildlife" what do you propose ? (I suppose simply saying "for its photosite density" would be work).
However, what I was talking about is the choice of the term "reach"; it is not used consistently with a single meaning among the people who use it, and it has implications which are not a good representation of what is happening.
I'm not sure that necessarily makes it the wrong term. People use exposure and equivalence and speed ... and even "is" inconsistently !
Yes, long arms have more reach, because they get your hands closer to what you are interested in.
I can see that argument. But then that goes against telephoto lenses having more reach than wide angle lenses in the first place, and that's terminology that dates back a lot further than discussions related to sensor size and pixel density.
I don't use a longer lens or a TC or smaller pixels or any combination thereof to make it look like I am closer to, or "reached" the subject.
But getting closer isn't the goal of "reach". Sure, the boxer has to get his hand closer, but long arms are an advantage because he wants to keep the rest of his body far away. I don't think that, in common usage outside of photography, reach is associated with getting closer. It seems like a very natural use of the word.

I reach out to a distant subject with a longer lens. I mimic that effect with greater resolution, so I can magnify the subject in a print.
 
No, it's not, it's true. "AOV" or "FOV" are short for "angle of view" or "field of view". "Reach" is short for "resolving power". And if you're only interested in angle of view, a cropping tool will indeed change it.
So then, would you say that all other things being equal, ISO 25 film has more "reach" than ISO 800 film? I wonder why, though, if the term "resolution" does a much cleaner job, with no chance of conflating concepts with apparent proximity?
It's not a matter of just resolution, but of resolution brought to bear on a subject; specifically a distant one. Thus focal length (or specially, magnification) also plays a role. Reach represents the results of both making the subject as large as possible on the recording medium, and recording it with maximum detail. Remember, its not just pixels, but pixels per duck.

Dave
 
It seems? I did not claim in this current thread to be talking about practical choices. I did that in the thread which this one spun off of, and have done so in many threads at this website.
I missed most of that thread ...
OK, I agree with those points.
People do a lot of things that I wouldn't do. My goal is to help people be aware of the difference between scaling and proximity, real or apparent, and hope that at least a few people might adopt what I think is better terminology.
Do you have better terminology ? Instead of "24MP APS-C has more reach than 36MP FF" do you have another (concise) way of saying it ? Spelling out the technicalities in detail may be clear, but if someone wants to say, in conversation "I chose the D7200 over the D750 for its reach for shooting wildlife" what do you propose ? (I suppose simply saying "for its photosite density" would be work).
How about, "Reach is the relative capability of recording maximum detail (resolution) of distant subjects from a fixed location. In digital photography, the factors that most directly affect reach are the lens focal length and sensor pixel [or photosite] density." It's really not that hard.

Dave
 
No, it's not, it's true. "AOV" or "FOV" are short for "angle of view" or "field of view". "Reach" is short for "resolving power". And if you're only interested in angle of view, a cropping tool will indeed change it.
So then, would you say that all other things being equal, ISO 25 film has more "reach" than ISO 800 film? I wonder why, though, if the term "resolution" does a much cleaner job, with no chance of conflating concepts with apparent proximity?
It's not a matter of just resolution, but of resolution brought to bear on a subject; specifically a distant one. Thus focal length (or specially, magnification) also plays a role. Reach represents the results of both making the subject as large as possible on the recording medium, and recording it with maximum detail. Remember, its not just pixels, but pixels per duck.
Or ducks per square meter of water...

If it's about both recording with maximum detail and focal length, you could remove the lens from this and recording maximum detail would still work. IE, there is a focal length somewhere in that equation, but what matters in the end is the resolution brought to bear.

Mind you, I'm still not crazy about this word "reach" having any formal meaning...
 
Mind you, I'm still not crazy about this word "reach" having any formal meaning...
That's one of the reasons that I recommend just dumping that term and saying what you really mean. One does not have to use established terms to communicate, especially when there are clearer ways of saying things.

I could go through the rest of my life never saying the word "grandmother" except to quote someone else, because I can say "my mother's mother" or "my father's mother", and guess what; now you don't have to ask me which "grandmother" I'm talking about.
 
How about, "Reach is the relative capability of recording maximum detail (resolution) of distant subjects from a fixed location. In digital photography, the factors that most directly affect reach are the lens focal length and sensor pixel [or photosite] density." It's really not that hard.
Agreed. And while I can understand that the word "reach" in common usage might have other meanings, I don't see where it misleads in this context or where there's a better term.
 
No, it's not, it's true. "AOV" or "FOV" are short for "angle of view" or "field of view". "Reach" is short for "resolving power". And if you're only interested in angle of view, a cropping tool will indeed change it.
So then, would you say that all other things being equal, ISO 25 film has more "reach" than ISO 800 film? I wonder why, though, if the term "resolution" does a much cleaner job, with no chance of conflating concepts with apparent proximity?
It's not a matter of just resolution, but of resolution brought to bear on a subject; specifically a distant one. Thus focal length (or specially, magnification) also plays a role. Reach represents the results of both making the subject as large as possible on the recording medium, and recording it with maximum detail. Remember, its not just pixels, but pixels per duck.
Or ducks per square meter of water...

If it's about both recording with maximum detail and focal length, you could remove the lens from this and recording maximum detail would still work. IE, there is a focal length somewhere in that equation, but what matters in the end is the resolution brought to bear.
The desired end result is maximum detail on the subject. Both focal length and pixel density will affect that; you can't neglect either one. A high density sensor still won't give you a detailed duck at 100 meters if you use a 16 mm lens. And a 1000 mm lens won't give you a detailed duck if the sensor is a 0.5 mp full frame. Reach rolls up both as an index of the potential detail resulting from combination of both factors.

That's all; its really not that hard to understand.

Dave
 
No, it's not, it's true. "AOV" or "FOV" are short for "angle of view" or "field of view". "Reach" is short for "resolving power". And if you're only interested in angle of view, a cropping tool will indeed change it.
So then, would you say that all other things being equal, ISO 25 film has more "reach" than ISO 800 film? I wonder why, though, if the term "resolution" does a much cleaner job, with no chance of conflating concepts with apparent proximity?
It's not a matter of just resolution, but of resolution brought to bear on a subject; specifically a distant one. Thus focal length (or specially, magnification) also plays a role. Reach represents the results of both making the subject as large as possible on the recording medium, and recording it with maximum detail. Remember, its not just pixels, but pixels per duck.
Or ducks per square meter of water...

If it's about both recording with maximum detail and focal length, you could remove the lens from this and recording maximum detail would still work. IE, there is a focal length somewhere in that equation, but what matters in the end is the resolution brought to bear.
The desired end result is maximum detail on the subject. Both focal length and pixel density will affect that; you can't neglect either one. A high density sensor still won't give you a detailed duck at 100 meters if you use a 16 mm lens. And a 1000 mm lens won't give you a detailed duck if the sensor is a 0.5 mp full frame. Reach rolls up both as an index of the potential detail resulting from combination of both factors.

That's all; its really not that hard to understand.
Not hard to understand. But too loaded a term and too easily adapted to mean other things. It's just too often used in so many ways to be able to retain precise meaning. Wait, I remember another thread. Yep, we're going in circles again.
 
How about, "Reach is the relative capability of recording maximum detail (resolution) of distant subjects from a fixed location. In digital photography, the factors that most directly affect reach are the lens focal length and sensor pixel [or photosite] density." It's really not that hard.
Agreed. And while I can understand that the word "reach" in common usage might have other meanings, I don't see where it misleads in this context or where there's a better term.
Could it just be laziness?

One syllable, vs several?

What can be said with "reach" that can't be said more precisely with just a few more syllables?

"More detail". "Higher pixel density". "More pixels on subject". "Filling the viewfinder". Wow, those take so long to say, and no one has any idea what you're talking about if you say them.

If we want to be lazy, then the one-syllable "spread" actually covers everything real that "reach" is alleged to.
 
Mind you, I'm still not crazy about this word "reach" having any formal meaning...
That's one of the reasons that I recommend just dumping that term and saying what you really mean. One does not have to use established terms to communicate, especially when there are clearer ways of saying things.
Yep.
I could go through the rest of my life never saying the word "grandmother" except to quote someone else, because I can say "my mother's mother" or "my father's mother", and guess what; now you don't have to ask me which "grandmother" I'm talking about.
I guess this is the issue with English in general. It's a very adaptable and fungible language. Now there's an example...
 
"More detail". "Higher pixel density". "More pixels on subject". "Filling the viewfinder". Wow, those take so long to say, and no one has any idea what you're talking about if you say them.
"I chose the D7200 over the D750 for its ability to fill the viewfinder" ? (I could choose the D3300 and fill the viewfinder even more !)

"I chose the D7200 over the D750 for more detail" ?

"Higher pixel density" works.

But then, that's what people commonly mean by reach, so that works just fine. We're innately lazy. We use contractions rather than spell out "should not" or "cannot". (Maybe if German was our native language, instead of "reach" we could use "higherpixeldensiteinen" :) People who don't understand what "reach" means in this context likely don't understand the advantage of higher pixel densities on smaller sensors in the first place.
 
I could go through the rest of my life never saying the word "grandmother" except to quote someone else, because I can say "my mother's mother" or "my father's mother", and guess what; now you don't have to ask me which "grandmother" I'm talking about.
True. But "Hi Grandma" is a lot friendlier. And she knows whose mother she is. And you could ... but will you ?
 
No, it's not, it's true. "AOV" or "FOV" are short for "angle of view" or "field of view". "Reach" is short for "resolving power". And if you're only interested in angle of view, a cropping tool will indeed change it.
So then, would you say that all other things being equal, ISO 25 film has more "reach" than ISO 800 film?
Absolutely.
I wonder why, though, if the term "resolution" does a much cleaner job, with no chance of conflating concepts with apparent proximity?
I'd prefer that route, but the problem is the term "resolution" has been hijacked to mean "pixel dimensions" or "pixel count", thus confusing the issue if it is used in its correct historical fashion (i.e. arc seconds / line pair).

The bottom line for me is, "reach" has meant "resolving power" since I started posting here.
 
Leave "reach" to mean angle of view and keep it in the optical domain.
Why? Since "reach" is just shorthand for "resolving power", that makes no sense.
I think it should mean angle of view - getting a bigger subject in your viewfinder/sensor.
We have a term for that. It's called "angle of view".

In your case "reach" is increased by using the Lightroom cropping tool.
Oh lovely - I think that's sarcasm.
No, it's not, it's true. "AOV" or "FOV" are short for "angle of view" or "field of view". "Reach" is short for "resolving power".
I'm saying it shouldn't be.
All your alternatives already have terms, and make no sense in the context of photographing distance subjects.
 
The bottom line for me is, "reach" has meant "resolving power" since I started posting here.
It means that. But that doesn't mean that resolving power would be a good substitute. I don't know if you were proposing such a thing or not, but anyway ... If you consider the context of some discussions, when people talk about choosing APS-C over FF for wildlife or birding for it's reach, we know what they mean. If they were to say they chose APS-C over FF for it's resolving power, that doesn't automatically follow. (The statement using "reach" implies cropping; the statement using "resolving power" doesn't).
 
The bottom line for me is, "reach" has meant "resolving power" since I started posting here.
It means that. But that doesn't mean that resolving power would be a good substitute. I don't know if you were proposing such a thing or not, but anyway ... If you consider the context of some discussions, when people talk about choosing APS-C over FF for wildlife or birding for it's reach, we know what they mean. If they were to say they chose APS-C over FF for it's resolving power, that doesn't automatically follow. (The statement using "reach" implies cropping; the statement using "resolving power" doesn't).
I meant that it doesn't imply cropping. For example, the 7D Mark II and 5DS have the same reach with the same lens due to having the same sized pixels.
 
No, it's not, it's true. "AOV" or "FOV" are short for "angle of view" or "field of view". "Reach" is short for "resolving power". And if you're only interested in angle of view, a cropping tool will indeed change it.
So then, would you say that all other things being equal, ISO 25 film has more "reach" than ISO 800 film?
Absolutely.
I wonder why, though, if the term "resolution" does a much cleaner job, with no chance of conflating concepts with apparent proximity?
I'd prefer that route, but the problem is the term "resolution" has been hijacked to mean "pixel dimensions" or "pixel count", thus confusing the issue if it is used in its correct historical fashion (i.e. arc seconds / line pair).

The bottom line for me is, "reach" has meant "resolving power" since I started posting here.
But a lens can have resolving power independent of the sensor it's coupled with or it's focal length.
 

Keyboard shortcuts

Back
Top