reach reached 150

That's my point. "Reaching" requires a change of perspective.
I agree.
Weird, but okay.
And I take it a bit further by saying that I would rather confine reach to optical phenomena. IE, a longer lens has more reach than a shorter lens.
Changing focal length doesn't change perspective.
You're right, I was thinking angle of view, not perspective. A case of seeing what I wanted to see.
On which sensor one may ask? No, forget the sensor. When you introduce the sensor, you, you introduce a new variable and that's another matter. It's just optical - as you increase focal length, you decrease angle of view.
And if you change sensor size on a camera or eye piece focal length on a telescope you change angle of view, but not perspective.
Leave "reach" to mean angle of view and keep it in the optical domain.
If "reach" in this context is to be angle of view, then a changed sensor size changes angle of view in exactly the same way as does increasing the focal lenghth, or cropping the image down. Some cameras have an optional "digital zoom" facility where they'll crop down in camera. I've seen lots of arguments over the years about whether this actually constitutes a "real" change of reach or a fake one. Some cameras boast of being able not only to crop down in camera but then to interpolate up again to the full sensor size MP. They call this improved digital zoom things like "super zoom" or "smart zoom". More people seem willing to concede that this kind of "smart zoom" is a "real" change of "reach" as compared to plain vanilla digital zoom. Yet cropping with good interpolation back to the original MP in post processing on your computer, although identical in its effect on the image to an in-camera "smart zoom", is much more rarely regarded as a change of reach.

It's clear that the concept of long lens "reach" is confused and used in a variety of different ways. Since it's simply a vague popular metaphor with nothing in the meaning of the word to allow its definition to be tightened up to one particular unambiguous meaning the solution to the problem won't ever be found by arguing about the term. New more precise terms are needed.

I have a 500mm full frame lens. I use it to photograph distant small things which are often too small to fill the image. such as a small bird or the moon. I'm interested in getting the best detail resolution, such as feather detail or the craters on the moon. Do I get more detail by using the lens on an APS-C DSLR? Not if the APS-C camera puts the same number of pixels on the bird (or moon). But if I add 50% to the number of pixels in my FF DSLR, making it say 36MP from 24MP, I'll put more pixels on the moon (or bird), just as many as putting the lens on a 24MP APS-C DSLR would put on it. If the air was perfectly clear, and the lens was perfect way beyond the practical optical limits of lens perfection, that would give me a 22% increase in linear feather detail or crater detail. But my lens isn't perfect, and the air is rarely perfectly clear, so in practice the slight increase in detail resolution by upping my FF sensor by 50% of MP (or switching to an APS-C camera of the same MP) will only rarely be visible in the best conditions on a few particularly critical parts of the image.

I'd very much like more "reach" in the sense of getting more feather detail in distant small birds, or more craters on the moon. Let's say I'd like to get twice as much detail. If the air and lens were ideally (and impossibly) perfect I'd need a 1,000mm lens to do that. So let's say I'd actually need a 1,500mm lens to double detail. It would also have to have the same aperture as my 500mm lens, which means it would have to be VERY big and VERY expensive. Forget handholding, I might need help just to lift the thing off the ground onto a tripod. Which is why astronomers, who use such lenses, often build them onto a fixed support.

On the other hand I could achieve the same increase in detail resolution without changing the lens or image perspective by simply increasing the camera MP. Because we measure detail resolution linearly that means I'd have to increase MP by 400%. Because the lens isn't perfect we'd need say an extra 50% to make up for that loss and make it a real doubling of resolution. That meas increasing MP by 600%. So if my FF DSLR was 24MP I'd want to upgrade to a 144MP sensor (or on APS-C, a 96MP sensor).

"Reach" and "equivalent focal lengths" tell me nothing of what I want to know when thinking about what upgrades would best increase the detail resolution I'm getting from my longest lenses.That's what people are usually interested in when they talk about needing more "reach". They wouldn't be interested in a lens of twice the focal length which gave no more detail resolution. What I'm interested in are angle of view and arc seconds per pixel. As someone has pointed out, these are the terms already used in the astronomical community.

I'm glad, however, that so many people like the term "reach". It helps to persuade lots of people to keep buying slightly longer lenses and more sensor MP, even though they won't be able to see any diffrence in detail resolution, and that helps to keep the research and development teams of the camera makers going in the direction of more detail resolution.
 
One of two ways:

a. Be the very last post before the thread is locked.

b. Be the last post before everyone gives up on the topic and loses interest.

The shortcut to victory is simple. Just post the most clever sarcasm, garner the most "likes" and claim supremacy.
 
I agree. And I take it a bit further by saying that I would rather confine reach to optical phenomena. IE, a longer lens has more reach than a shorter lens.

On which sensor one may ask? No, forget the sensor. When you introduce the sensor, you, you introduce a new variable and that's another matter. It's just optical - as you increase focal length, you decrease angle of view.
If it's just an optical phenomenon, then a 24MP FF camera with a 357mm focal length has the same reach as a 16MP Nikon P900, but when you crop the FF to the same field of view as the P900 you are left with only .75MP compared to the P900's 16MP. So would you say these have the same reach when only one of them produces a usable image at 2000mm equivalent focal length?
I don't know those cameras. But now you're talking about resolution. I'd rather use reach when talking about lenses and MP of resolution when talking about sensors. The interaction of the two is yet another thing to discuss.
Steve, when you "use reach to talk about lenses" what is it that you are talking about? If a lens has more "reach" in your view, what benefit does that bring to the picture? A longer lens makes the subject bigger (on the sensor), right? Why do you want a bigger image of the subject? If it isn't greater resolution (detail) on the subject, then what is it?

Dave
 
Leave "reach" to mean angle of view and keep it in the optical domain.
If you want to keep it in the optical domain "reach" would have to mean focal length, not angle of view because angle of view depends on both focal length and sensor size, but if it just means focal length then we already have a name for that.
Geez, yes. I can't believe I did that. But yes, keep it in optical domain and just call it reach and refer to lenses.

Reach is a slang/colloquial term at best. Focal length is precise, reach just implies the lens is "reaching" out.
 
I don't know those cameras. But now you're talking about resolution. I'd rather use reach when talking about lenses and MP of resolution when talking about sensors. The interaction of the two is yet another thing to discuss.
With all due respect, what you would rather is rather irrelevant. You can use reach to mean whatever you want, but it already has a meaning to everyone else.
And a poorly conceived one at that. Since we're in this discussion that will change nothing, what I "would rather" is no less relevant than what you might say.
 
Leave "reach" to mean angle of view and keep it in the optical domain.
Why? Since "reach" is just shorthand for "resolving power", that makes no sense.
 
That's my point. "Reaching" requires a change of perspective.
I agree.
Weird, but okay.
And I take it a bit further by saying that I would rather confine reach to optical phenomena. IE, a longer lens has more reach than a shorter lens.
Changing focal length doesn't change perspective.
On which sensor one may ask? No, forget the sensor. When you introduce the sensor, you, you introduce a new variable and that's another matter. It's just optical - as you increase focal length, you decrease angle of view.
And if you change sensor size on a camera or eye piece focal length on a telescope you change angle of view, but not perspective.
... and it doesn't even look like a change of perspective, at least not to me. In the original thread, or maybe a similar thread recently, someone asked me if things don't look closer to me when I look at them through binoculars. They don't look closer to me at all; they look magnified, which is something completely different. Same thing looking through a telescope, or 800mm of lens and TC on my camera.

That's why I reject all terminology that implies that getting to see more details is like getting virtually closer - it has nothing necessarily to do with proximity. Proximity is only one way of seeing or capturing more detail, and has other side effects which do not happen with TCs, smaller pixels, and longer focal lengths.
 
That's my point. "Reaching" requires a change of perspective.
I agree.
Weird, but okay.
And I take it a bit further by saying that I would rather confine reach to optical phenomena. IE, a longer lens has more reach than a shorter lens.
Changing focal length doesn't change perspective.
On which sensor one may ask? No, forget the sensor. When you introduce the sensor, you, you introduce a new variable and that's another matter. It's just optical - as you increase focal length, you decrease angle of view.
And if you change sensor size on a camera or eye piece focal length on a telescope you change angle of view, but not perspective.
... and it doesn't even look like a change of perspective, at least not to me. In the original thread, or maybe a similar thread recently, someone asked me if things don't look closer to me when I look at them through binoculars. They don't look closer to me at all; they look magnified, which is something completely different. Same thing looking through a telescope, or 800mm of lens and TC on my camera.

That's why I reject all terminology that implies that getting to see more details is like getting virtually closer - it has nothing necessarily to do with proximity. Proximity is only one way of seeing or capturing more detail, and has other side effects which do not happen with TCs, smaller pixels, and longer focal lengths.
Right - getting closer is a change of perspective, while having more "reach" is a change in resolving power. They are only the same if the subject is two dimentional, such as a painting.
 
Leave "reach" to mean angle of view and keep it in the optical domain.
If you want to keep it in the optical domain "reach" would have to mean focal length, not angle of view because angle of view depends on both focal length and sensor size, but if it just means focal length then we already have a name for that.
Geez, yes. I can't believe I did that. But yes, keep it in optical domain and just call it reach and refer to lenses.

Reach is a slang/colloquial term at best. Focal length is precise, reach just implies the lens is "reaching" out.
Then I'm even more curious about how you would answer my question below. What is it about (longer) focal length that adds value to a picture? Why do you want a larger image of the subject recorded by the sensor? If it is not for the purpose of achieving greater resolution (detail) of the subject, what is it?

Dave
 
That's my point. "Reaching" requires a change of perspective.
I agree.
Weird, but okay.
And I take it a bit further by saying that I would rather confine reach to optical phenomena. IE, a longer lens has more reach than a shorter lens.
Changing focal length doesn't change perspective.
On which sensor one may ask? No, forget the sensor. When you introduce the sensor, you, you introduce a new variable and that's another matter. It's just optical - as you increase focal length, you decrease angle of view.
And if you change sensor size on a camera or eye piece focal length on a telescope you change angle of view, but not perspective.
... and it doesn't even look like a change of perspective, at least not to me. In the original thread, or maybe a similar thread recently, someone asked me if things don't look closer to me when I look at them through binoculars. They don't look closer to me at all; they look magnified, which is something completely different. Same thing looking through a telescope, or 800mm of lens and TC on my camera.

That's why I reject all terminology that implies that getting to see more details is like getting virtually closer - it has nothing necessarily to do with proximity. Proximity is only one way of seeing or capturing more detail, and has other side effects which do not happen with TCs, smaller pixels, and longer focal lengths.
Right - getting closer is a change of perspective, while having more "reach" is a change in resolving power. They are only the same if the subject is two dimentional, such as a painting.
As most birders are acutely aware, getting physically closer may be desirable, but as a practical matter it is often limited. The concept of reach is born of this problem: getting more resolution on a distant subject without being able to get closer. I see the etymology of the word "reach" as being the same sense that I reach out for something that I can't get my body any closer to; rather than the sense the I have "reached" my destination. Thus a longer focal length "reaches out" to something without changing position or perspective. Increasing potential recording detail does the same thing, and both can work together to increase resolution of the subject, which is the ultimate goal.

Dave
 
I agree. And I take it a bit further by saying that I would rather confine reach to optical phenomena. IE, a longer lens has more reach than a shorter lens.

On which sensor one may ask? No, forget the sensor. When you introduce the sensor, you, you introduce a new variable and that's another matter. It's just optical - as you increase focal length, you decrease angle of view.
If it's just an optical phenomenon, then a 24MP FF camera with a 357mm focal length has the same reach as a 16MP Nikon P900, but when you crop the FF to the same field of view as the P900 you are left with only .75MP compared to the P900's 16MP. So would you say these have the same reach when only one of them produces a usable image at 2000mm equivalent focal length?
I don't know those cameras. But now you're talking about resolution. I'd rather use reach when talking about lenses and MP of resolution when talking about sensors. The interaction of the two is yet another thing to discuss.
Steve, when you "use reach to talk about lenses" what is it that you are talking about? If a lens has more "reach" in your view, what benefit does that bring to the picture? A longer lens makes the subject bigger (on the sensor), right? Why do you want a bigger image of the subject? If it isn't greater resolution (detail) on the subject, then what is it?

Dave

--
http://www.pbase.com/dsjtecserv
Extra reach of a lens for me means that I get a different angle of view, a bigger subject. Whether or not I get more resolution or detail in my image depends on the quality of the lens and the quality of the sensor etc. So for me, if we're going to use that term, I like it here. I don't like it as a reference to resolution. But hey, what do I matter?

For instance, if you put an 85mm lens on the 5Ds, you get more reach than with the 50mm lens. But you might not actually resolve more detail if the 85mm lens is a terrible lens. But you certainly get a "bigger subject" in your viewfinder.

I understand what you're saying, but why use the word reach to describe it? Does this word really belong when we already have better / more precise terms?

For me, the fact that so many blogsters, manufacturers (wasn't it Nikon?) and "pros" use the word reach in a sloppy way shows that it's not a word that can hold a precise meaning. We would like to correct this, but its going to continue.
 
Leave "reach" to mean angle of view and keep it in the optical domain.
If you want to keep it in the optical domain "reach" would have to mean focal length, not angle of view because angle of view depends on both focal length and sensor size, but if it just means focal length then we already have a name for that.
Geez, yes. I can't believe I did that. But yes, keep it in optical domain and just call it reach and refer to lenses.

Reach is a slang/colloquial term at best. Focal length is precise, reach just implies the lens is "reaching" out.
Then I'm even more curious about how you would answer my question below. What is it about (longer) focal length that adds value to a picture? Why do you want a larger image of the subject recorded by the sensor? If it is not for the purpose of achieving greater resolution (detail) of the subject, what is it?
See below.
 
That thread had degenerated into something useless and unproductive. This one is already there.
 
Leave "reach" to mean angle of view and keep it in the optical domain.
Why? Since "reach" is just shorthand for "resolving power", that makes no sense.
I think it should mean angle of view - getting a bigger subject in your viewfinder/sensor. Whether or not you actually get more resolution of the subject is dependent on other things.

I'm just saying, "reach" doesn't really have the ability to hold up given all the people using it in so many ways. It has somewhat of an intuitive meaning that people decide to apply to whatever they want. This doesn't seem to happen as much to a lot of other words.

But who am I? Just having a theoretical conversation. Your comments are good.
 
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I agree. And I take it a bit further by saying that I would rather confine reach to optical phenomena. IE, a longer lens has more reach than a shorter lens.

On which sensor one may ask? No, forget the sensor. When you introduce the sensor, you, you introduce a new variable and that's another matter. It's just optical - as you increase focal length, you decrease angle of view.
If it's just an optical phenomenon, then a 24MP FF camera with a 357mm focal length has the same reach as a 16MP Nikon P900, but when you crop the FF to the same field of view as the P900 you are left with only .75MP compared to the P900's 16MP. So would you say these have the same reach when only one of them produces a usable image at 2000mm equivalent focal length?
I don't know those cameras. But now you're talking about resolution. I'd rather use reach when talking about lenses and MP of resolution when talking about sensors. The interaction of the two is yet another thing to discuss.
Steve, when you "use reach to talk about lenses" what is it that you are talking about? If a lens has more "reach" in your view, what benefit does that bring to the picture? A longer lens makes the subject bigger (on the sensor), right? Why do you want a bigger image of the subject? If it isn't greater resolution (detail) on the subject, then what is it?

Dave

--
http://www.pbase.com/dsjtecserv
Extra reach of a lens for me means that I get a different angle of view, a bigger subject. Whether or not I get more resolution or detail in my image depends on the quality of the lens and the quality of the sensor etc. So for me, if we're going to use that term, I like it here. I don't like it as a reference to resolution. But hey, what do I matter?

For instance, if you put an 85mm lens on the 5Ds, you get more reach than with the 50mm lens. But you might not actually resolve more detail if the 85mm lens is a terrible lens. But you certainly get a "bigger subject" in your viewfinder.

I understand what you're saying, but why use the word reach to describe it? Does this word really belong when we already have better / more precise terms?
We actually don't have a word -- other than reach -- that rolls up the main factors that create a more detailed image of a subject. That was the original intent and use of the word, going back to the film days. As I noted in an earlier thread, reach was primarily the effect one got from using a longer focal length from the same position. While film grain could also be a factor in that, it wasn't usually considered. But now that we have cameras using pixels in a range of densities, that factor becomes a legitimate variable to be considered in the assessment of the ability of a system to produce detail. So it means that same thing it always meant -- potential detail in the image of a subject -- but we now have an additional consideration that can contribute to reach.

Noted that many things -- bad lenses, subject or camera motion, etc., etc. -- can prevent realization of the potential detail represented by "reach"; just as additional factors can make actual depth of field different from calculated depth of field. But that doesn't invalidate its usefulness as a way to compare the potential for subject detail, especially for distant objects.
For me, the fact that so many blogsters, manufacturers (wasn't it Nikon?) and "pros" use the word reach in a sloppy way shows that it's not a word that can hold a precise meaning. We would like to correct this, but its going to continue.
As I noted before, the concept of reach isn't new, nor is the word itself. I suspect that the misunderstanding began when it was -- correctly -- noted that crop cameras having a higher pixel density could produce more detail than a larger sensor when using the same focal length from the same position. Somewhere the understanding got lost that it is the pixel density, and not the smallness of the sensor, that does this. So I believe the effort here is to displace the misunderstanding that has developed and restore the original concept of reach.

Dave

--
http://www.pbase.com/dsjtecserv
 
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That's my point. "Reaching" requires a change of perspective.
I agree.
Weird, but okay.
And I take it a bit further by saying that I would rather confine reach to optical phenomena. IE, a longer lens has more reach than a shorter lens.
Changing focal length doesn't change perspective.
On which sensor one may ask? No, forget the sensor. When you introduce the sensor, you, you introduce a new variable and that's another matter. It's just optical - as you increase focal length, you decrease angle of view.
And if you change sensor size on a camera or eye piece focal length on a telescope you change angle of view, but not perspective.
... and it doesn't even look like a change of perspective, at least not to me. In the original thread, or maybe a similar thread recently, someone asked me if things don't look closer to me when I look at them through binoculars. They don't look closer to me at all; they look magnified, which is something completely different. Same thing looking through a telescope, or 800mm of lens and TC on my camera.

That's why I reject all terminology that implies that getting to see more details is like getting virtually closer - it has nothing necessarily to do with proximity. Proximity is only one way of seeing or capturing more detail, and has other side effects which do not happen with TCs, smaller pixels, and longer focal lengths.
Right - getting closer is a change of perspective, while having more "reach" is a change in resolving power. They are only the same if the subject is two dimentional, such as a painting.
As most birders are acutely aware, getting physically closer may be desirable, but as a practical matter it is often limited. The concept of reach is born of this problem: getting more resolution on a distant subject without being able to get closer. I see the etymology of the word "reach" as being the same sense that I reach out for something that I can't get my body any closer to; rather than the sense the I have "reached" my destination. Thus a longer focal length "reaches out" to something without changing position or perspective. Increasing potential recording detail does the same thing, and both can work together to increase resolution of the subject, which is the ultimate goal.
All true. But I'd rather just say "getting more resolution on the subject". It's hard to get that wrong.

BTW - I looked on your PBase link and noticed Linville Gorge. I've been thinking of going there. Any idea the best time of year?
 
I agree. And I take it a bit further by saying that I would rather confine reach to optical phenomena. IE, a longer lens has more reach than a shorter lens.

On which sensor one may ask? No, forget the sensor. When you introduce the sensor, you, you introduce a new variable and that's another matter. It's just optical - as you increase focal length, you decrease angle of view.
If it's just an optical phenomenon, then a 24MP FF camera with a 357mm focal length has the same reach as a 16MP Nikon P900, but when you crop the FF to the same field of view as the P900 you are left with only .75MP compared to the P900's 16MP. So would you say these have the same reach when only one of them produces a usable image at 2000mm equivalent focal length?
I don't know those cameras. But now you're talking about resolution. I'd rather use reach when talking about lenses and MP of resolution when talking about sensors. The interaction of the two is yet another thing to discuss.
Steve, when you "use reach to talk about lenses" what is it that you are talking about? If a lens has more "reach" in your view, what benefit does that bring to the picture? A longer lens makes the subject bigger (on the sensor), right? Why do you want a bigger image of the subject? If it isn't greater resolution (detail) on the subject, then what is it?

Dave
 
That's my point. "Reaching" requires a change of perspective.
I agree.
Weird, but okay.
And I take it a bit further by saying that I would rather confine reach to optical phenomena. IE, a longer lens has more reach than a shorter lens.
Changing focal length doesn't change perspective.
On which sensor one may ask? No, forget the sensor. When you introduce the sensor, you, you introduce a new variable and that's another matter. It's just optical - as you increase focal length, you decrease angle of view.
And if you change sensor size on a camera or eye piece focal length on a telescope you change angle of view, but not perspective.
... and it doesn't even look like a change of perspective, at least not to me. In the original thread, or maybe a similar thread recently, someone asked me if things don't look closer to me when I look at them through binoculars. They don't look closer to me at all; they look magnified, which is something completely different. Same thing looking through a telescope, or 800mm of lens and TC on my camera.

That's why I reject all terminology that implies that getting to see more details is like getting virtually closer - it has nothing necessarily to do with proximity. Proximity is only one way of seeing or capturing more detail, and has other side effects which do not happen with TCs, smaller pixels, and longer focal lengths.
Right - getting closer is a change of perspective, while having more "reach" is a change in resolving power. They are only the same if the subject is two dimentional, such as a painting.
As most birders are acutely aware, getting physically closer may be desirable, but as a practical matter it is often limited. The concept of reach is born of this problem: getting more resolution on a distant subject without being able to get closer. I see the etymology of the word "reach" as being the same sense that I reach out for something that I can't get my body any closer to; rather than the sense the I have "reached" my destination. Thus a longer focal length "reaches out" to something without changing position or perspective. Increasing potential recording detail does the same thing, and both can work together to increase resolution of the subject, which is the ultimate goal.
All true. But I'd rather just say "getting more resolution on the subject". It's hard to get that wrong.
Of we could just agree that that's what "reach" means, and save ourselves 28 characters!
BTW - I looked on your PBase link and noticed Linville Gorge. I've been thinking of going there. Any idea the best time of year?
I wish I could go back there more frequently to find out! I've had two major trips there, one in the spring and one in the fall. Both were spectacular. I think I felt more successful in the spring, when the rhododendrons were at peak, than in the fall. I probably missed the fall color peak and so it wasn't as impressive; better timing might give that the edge.

Also note that it is getting pretty popular and the main attractions along the rim can have a lot of people on weekends. But hiking to more remote parts of the rim, or getting down into the gorge away from the main rim-to-rim route, can give solitude and great views. Also, there is a Linville Gorge hiking/exploring forum that I joined that was a source a great information.

I think you'll enjoy it; have fun.

Dave
 
I agree. And I take it a bit further by saying that I would rather confine reach to optical phenomena. IE, a longer lens has more reach than a shorter lens.

On which sensor one may ask? No, forget the sensor. When you introduce the sensor, you, you introduce a new variable and that's another matter. It's just optical - as you increase focal length, you decrease angle of view.
If it's just an optical phenomenon, then a 24MP FF camera with a 357mm focal length has the same reach as a 16MP Nikon P900, but when you crop the FF to the same field of view as the P900 you are left with only .75MP compared to the P900's 16MP. So would you say these have the same reach when only one of them produces a usable image at 2000mm equivalent focal length?
I don't know those cameras. But now you're talking about resolution. I'd rather use reach when talking about lenses and MP of resolution when talking about sensors. The interaction of the two is yet another thing to discuss.
Steve, when you "use reach to talk about lenses" what is it that you are talking about? If a lens has more "reach" in your view, what benefit does that bring to the picture? A longer lens makes the subject bigger (on the sensor), right? Why do you want a bigger image of the subject? If it isn't greater resolution (detail) on the subject, then what is it?

Dave
 

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