Re: Death knell for CCD sensors?

"CMOS manufacturers have promised they can match CCD performance, but to date, nobody's done it"

I wonder how a 'specialist' can made this statement weeks
after the Canon EOS D30 release date.

TK

The D30 has equaled or surpassed the D1 and S1 in
some areas for a lot less money. Canon does not
consider the D30 a professional camera and should
not be compared to the Nikon or Fuji, but look
for yourself.

Tom

Thomas Kroener said:

"CMOS manufacturers have promised they can match CCD performance,
but to date, nobody's done it"

I wonder how a 'specialist' can made this statement weeks
after the Canon EOS D30 release date.

TK

Click to expand...

I have looked at a number of the images in detail that I downloaded from this site and many if not most of the images have significant problems at the finest detail. There is a jaggedness with diagonal features at the finest detail that I find disturbing. While the D30 CMOS ccd is a major step forward, I don't think that all the bugs are out yet.

Tom C said:

Tom

Thomas Kroener said:

"CMOS manufacturers have promised they can match CCD performance,
but to date, nobody's done it"

I wonder how a 'specialist' can made this statement weeks
after the Canon EOS D30 release date.

TK

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

I agree I've noticed the diagonals but I'd also say that there are VERY FEW digital cameras that come close to the D30 for pure clean detail, you're getting up real close and probably seeing the effects of the anti-alias filter, something (until someone comes up with a software based solution) all digital SLR's will have to suffer.

Leon Wittwer said:

Tom C said:

Tom

Thomas Kroener said:

"CMOS manufacturers have promised they can match CCD performance,
but to date, nobody's done it"

I wonder how a 'specialist' can made this statement weeks
after the Canon EOS D30 release date.

TK

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Exactly - it's very unlikely to be a problem with the fact that the sensor is CMOS rather than CCD. I suspect it's simply Canon's (software) bayer interpolation. Nikon seem to have excellent interpolation actually. When I look at a D1 image, even at 100%, my eyes are totally relaxed - everything just looks so crisp. The first time I saw a D1 image this really struck me.

I still haven't found any full sized D30 images which have really noticable jaggies on diagonals though - it's extremely subtle to my eyes. The reduced size images are an entirely different story though. And there is no excuse for jaggies on the reduced size images - the camera ought to be doing a better job.

Greg.

Phil Askey said:

Leon Wittwer said:

Tom C said:

Tom

Thomas Kroener said:

"CMOS manufacturers have promised they can match CCD performance,
but to date, nobody's done it"

I wonder how a 'specialist' can made this statement weeks
after the Canon EOS D30 release date.

TK

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

I bought one Monday, and I'm pretty impressed with it. The body is an elan 7 body,

with digital features. The best part about it is that it's very easy to use. It works very
similarly to an Elan II. If you can use one of those (Elan), you've got it made.

One thing that's cool is that you don't have to switch the camera dial back and forth from

record and play to view the picture (like you do on a Nikon). Just push a button. The

hardware is very nicely designed and user intuitive. No so for the D1. Too many buttons to

push and dials to turn. Well, I guess you get used to it and I probably would have bought a

D1 if I didn't have to buy it plus new lens, flash, software, etc. The differences didn't seem
to be worth the extra cost.

I can't say it's better than a D1; I still think the D1 probably can outshoot this camera

in many ways, but for the average user, this Canon camera is really amazing. And I can

use my lens from my elan and the speedlite.... and the media from my Nikon 990. Plus
they include software to develop the raw files (no $500 charge like the D1).

I'm not seeing any big CMOS-related problems with it so far; I also have a Nikon 990

which does incredibly well for its size (though the color isn't quite as good as with the
Canon D30). Oddly enough, if you have the Nikon view software installed on your

computer and you use, say, Lexar media (that has the jumpshot capability) the Nikon
software works just fine with the Canon pictures.

What I'd really like to see is if they can get this CMOS stuff to have 3 different chips for

RGB and put it all in a body like this. Like a cheap folvion.. That's what I want.

Tom C said:

Tom

Thomas Kroener said:

"CMOS manufacturers have promised they can match CCD performance,
but to date, nobody's done it"

I wonder how a 'specialist' can made this statement weeks
after the Canon EOS D30 release date.

TK

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Phil Askey said:

I agree I've noticed the diagonals but I'd also say that there are
VERY FEW digital cameras that come close to the D30 for pure clean
detail, you're getting up real close and probably seeing the
effects of the anti-alias filter, something (until someone comes up
with a software based solution) all digital SLR's will have to
suffer.

Click to expand...

Its basically impossible to replace a physical antialiasing (optical low-pass) filter with any kind of software postprocessing. One could get rid of it if the resolution of the sensor is higher than the signal passed through by the lens. (And I've heard that some of the 16-megapixel designs are heading in this direction.)

I'm extrapolating from general digital signal processing knowledge and audio processing knowledge. But I can't see how this would be different in a camera as the aliasing happens when the signal is sampled and that is what the sensor does.

-Z-

Thomas Kroener said:

"CMOS manufacturers have promised they can match CCD performance,
but to date, nobody's done it"

I wonder how a 'specialist' can made this statement weeks
after the Canon EOS D30 release date.

Click to expand...

Well there's also Foveon, which uses three 4 megapixel CMOS sensors in their studio cameras and just announced a 16-megapixel CMOS sensor. (And the Studio camera II uses Canon EOS lenses so those who are looking for higher quality than the D30 have an immediate upgrade path )

Its not too much of a generalization to say that if its even remotely possible to uses CMOS fabrication for a type of chip, you're better off using CMOS because it has so much more support from the semiconductor industry than anything else.

-Z-