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Color Munki use

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Frank68740

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There are two versions as far a I can tell. One is for monitor (display $139.00)

and another called "photo" for the monitor and printer($399.00)

What is the point in calibrating the monitor only. I thought the whole purpose in calibration was to sync the monitor with the printer so what you see on the screen is what you see

in your print.

Could someone explain this.

Thanks
 
Frank said:
There are two versions as far a I can tell. One is for monitor (display $139.00)

and another called "photo" for the monitor and printer($399.00)

What is the point in calibrating the monitor only. I thought the whole purpose in calibration was to sync the monitor with the printer so what you see on the screen is what you see

in your print.

Could someone explain this.

Thanks
Click to expand...
the monitor calibration is a 'gotta'. the printer profiling (and it is profiling, not calibration. they are different terms and functions) is a 'nice to have' because the paper mfgr will *usually* provide a decent one. It's true though that a custom profile can add additional icing on the cake but in reality, very few people go that route and just use the stock/canned profile as provided.
 
I just generated 3 custom Epson R3000 profiles , using OEM ink, for Red River papers with my Xrite I1Pro and I sure couldn't find any print differences between my custom ICC profiles and the Red River supplied ones. Shadow details and color gradients where identical to the eye. 3D plots of the profiles where 99% identical.

So yes there are many great canned ICC profiles out there when using OEM ink.

Bob P.
 
Frank said:
There are two versions as far a I can tell. One is for monitor (display $139.00)

and another called "photo" for the monitor and printer($399.00)

What is the point in calibrating the monitor only. I thought the whole purpose in calibration was to sync the monitor with the printer so what you see on the screen is what you see
Click to expand...
IF you're supplied good canned profiles for your output device, you should be able to use them AFTER display calibration. FWIW, the ColorMunki Display is excellent hardware matted with pretty crippled software. In fact, the hardware is identical to the much more expensive i1Display-Pro (with a chip to make it run slower for whatever marketing reasons). The more expensive offering has much more useful software, especially if your goal is to match the display to the print next to the display!

Anyway, depending on the printer used, the supplied profiles can be pretty good (or not so good):

Not all ICC profiles are created equally

In this 23 minute video, I'll cover:

The basic anatomy of ICC Profiles

Why there are differences in profile quality and color rendering

How to evaluate an ICC output profile

Examples of good and not so good canned profiles and custom profiles on actual printed output.

High resolution: http://digitaldog.net/files/Not_All_Profiles_are_created_equally.mp4

Low resolution (YouTube):
 
Petruska said:
I just generated 3 custom Epson R3000 profiles , using OEM ink, for Red River papers with my Xrite I1Pro and I sure couldn't find any print differences between my custom ICC profiles and the Red River supplied ones. Shadow details and color gradients where identical to the eye. 3D plots of the profiles where 99% identical.
Click to expand...
Probably because of the better sets of Epson profiles (see my video referenced earlier), they, Epson, use the same color engine; i1Profiler. Epson supplies two 'sets' of canned profiles, the one's with a V in the name are built by a different group, using much better software which again uses the same color engine as the i1Pro you're using. The other's are not as good!
 
I'll counter that w/ 'my custom Ilford & Canson profiles are better, some by a little, some by a fair degree' :)

And Andrew showed the significant difference between Epson profiles made by their Japanese factory vs. US made subsidiary.

In the old days, it was more russian roulette w/ factory profiles. These days, not so much.

Also, you can have a custom profile made for your most oft used papers for less $$ buying a unit although you can rent one for a few days from lensrentals.com
 
Howard Moftich said:
And Andrew showed the significant difference between Epson profiles made by their Japanese factory vs. US made subsidiary.
Click to expand...
Actually, both are in the US despite the names.

Odd that there are two sets. Odder still one set isn't so good.
 
digidog said:
Petruska said:
I just generated 3 custom Epson R3000 profiles , using OEM ink, for Red River papers with my Xrite I1Pro and I sure couldn't find any print differences between my custom ICC profiles and the Red River supplied ones. Shadow details and color gradients where identical to the eye. 3D plots of the profiles where 99% identical.
Click to expand...
Probably because of the better sets of Epson profiles (see my video referenced earlier), they, Epson, use the same color engine; i1Profiler. Epson supplies two 'sets' of canned profiles, the one's with a V in the name are built by a different group, using much better software which again uses the same color engine as the i1Pro you're using. The other's are not as good!
Click to expand...
 
Frank said:
What is the point in calibrating the monitor only. I thought the whole purpose in calibration was to sync the monitor with the printer
Click to expand...
It's a misconception that the goal is to sync the monitor with the printer. What you really want is a properly profiled and calibrated monitor, and a properly profiled printer. If you have both, they will in theory work with ANY other properly profiled device. In other words if each device is determined to be accurate on its own, there is no need to "sync" specific monitors to specific printers.

Monitors are vulnerable to more factory variation and drifting over time than printers/ink/papers, so the priority is on monitor profiling. As already discussed, if you have good printer profiles then you don't need to pay to do that yourself with the expensive ColorMunki, you only need the Display version for your monitor.

I got the expensive ColorMunki because I sometimes use odd papers that there are no downloadable profiles for, so I wanted to make my own. If I always printed using the papers from the big manufacturers who upload great profiles (Epson/Moab/Hahnemuhle...) I would have only gotten the Display version and saved a lot of money.
 
Thank you Gray. I think I see how it works now. I was misinformed about the sync thing.

Anyway , A friend did my monitor today and it makes a world of difference after years

of pulling my hair out trying to make photoshop "Correct" my prints.
 
I have a color munki photo since one year. And made more than 100 printer profiles - one for the monitor. Which did not change very much. Other than the profiles for different papers, ink and printers... it will adjust the output of some unknown cheap but decent photo paper in a non-pro canon or epson a4 printer as well as in a 3880.

Printer profiles are much more important to me personally, they are my "must have" while a custom monitor profile turns out as "nice to have". Perhaps I will change my mind if I buy a better monitor.. :-O But one thing I want to underline: a profiled monitor by itself does not affect the printer output, neither does a printer profile change the monitor (except you use it for soft proof) - because both are output profiles, which are made independent from the other.

--
Printers: Canon IP4000, MP810, Epson R285, L300 and pro3880;
Refill Ink from PC, octoinkjet and recently out of Fujifilm Drylab carts
Forum for Refillers: http://www.printerknowledge.com/
...please excuse my german english, schooldays are long ago...
 
martin0reg said:
Printer profiles are much more important to me personally, they are my "must have" while a custom monitor profile turns out as "nice to have".
Click to expand...
Unless you don't care what the image looks like before you print, you really need both. They work together (that's what a soft proof provides). You need to good profiles for that. If all you care about is the print, if you can make as many as you desire by adjusting the image without regard to how it appears on screen, yes, you do not need display calibration. You could work on a grayscale display. Most people hope to produce WYSIWYG; a print and display that match closely so as they edit their images, the print is what they expect.
 
martin0reg said:
I have a color munki photo since one year. And made more than 100 printer profiles - one for the monitor. Which did not change very much. Other than the profiles for different papers, ink and printers... it will adjust the output of some unknown cheap but decent photo paper in a non-pro canon or epson a4 printer as well as in a 3880.

Printer profiles are much more important to me personally, they are my "must have" while a custom monitor profile turns out as "nice to have". Perhaps I will change my mind if I buy a better monitor.. :-O But one thing I want to underline: a profiled monitor by itself does not affect the printer output, neither does a printer profile change the monitor (except you use it for soft proof) - because both are output profiles, which are made independent from the other.

--
Printers: Canon IP4000, MP810, Epson R285, L300 and pro3880;
Refill Ink from PC, octoinkjet and recently out of Fujifilm Drylab carts
Forum for Refillers: http://www.printerknowledge.com/
...please excuse my german english, schooldays are long ago...
Click to expand...
If that works for you that is great.

I do think that 99+% of the people that print would disagree.

Monitor profile & calibration is "first".

If using 3rd party inks yes, a custom paper profile is needed.
 
AikenMooney said:
If that works for you that is great.

I do think that 99+% of the people that print would disagree.

Monitor profile & calibration is "first".

If using 3rd party inks yes, a custom paper profile is needed.
Click to expand...
Are monitors, and the profiles by the monitor manufacturer, that bad? Worse than a printer profile by paper manufacturers? I often read that profiling a monitor didn't change so very much... So while I agree that adjusting the monitor is important - I just want to point out, that you might profile the one output which is more important, leaving the other as is or profile it later. Technically there is no "first" here, I think.
 
martin0reg said:
AikenMooney said:
If that works for you that is great.

I do think that 99+% of the people that print would disagree.

Monitor profile & calibration is "first".

If using 3rd party inks yes, a custom paper profile is needed.
Click to expand...
Are monitors, and the profiles by the monitor manufacturer, that bad?
Click to expand...
What profiles?

There are some displays that use what is called EDID but in the context of ICC aware app's and color matching, useless.

Alter one control of the OSD, profile is now invalid. Calibration of a display is a process to place that display into a condition. An ideal condition like matching a print and display. You need settings and instrumentation to do this.

martin0reg said:
I often read that profiling a monitor didn't change so very much...
Click to expand...
Wherever you're reading such text, STOP. Keep this in mind: The reason there's so much ignorance on the subject of color management, is that those who have it are so eager to share it! -digitaldog

Further, a profile defines the condition of the display (ideal or otherwise).
martin0reg said:
So while I agree that adjusting the monitor is important - I just want to point out, that you might profile the one output which is more important, leaving the other as is or profile it later. Technically there is no "first" here, I think.
Click to expand...
The most important area to address with respect to color management is the display! It's the window into a big pile of RGB (or CMYK) values.
 
martin0reg said:
AikenMooney said:
If that works for you that is great.

I do think that 99+% of the people that print would disagree.

Monitor profile & calibration is "first".

If using 3rd party inks yes, a custom paper profile is needed.
Click to expand...
Are monitors, and the profiles by the monitor manufacturer, that bad? Worse than a printer profile by paper manufacturers? I often read that profiling a monitor didn't change so very much... So while I agree that adjusting the monitor is important - I just want to point out, that you might profile the one output which is more important, leaving the other as is or profile it later. Technically there is no "first" here, I think.

I-
Click to expand...
I really think there is a "first" here, THE MONITOR.


Printers: Canon IP4000, MP810, Epson R285, L300 and pro3880;
Refill Ink from PC, octoinkjet and recently out of Fujifilm Drylab carts
Forum for Refillers: http://www.printerknowledge.com/
...please excuse my german english, schooldays are long ago...
 
Okay... after I got my munki I made a dozen or more printer profiles. Later I made the one and only monitor profile, then continued profiling my printers, papers and inks. Does the monitor profile improve the second batch of printer profiles? Or does the missing profile make the fiirst batch useless? No - it doesn't affect them in any way.
 
martin0reg said:
Okay... after I got my munki I made a dozen or more printer profiles. Later I made the one and only monitor profile, then continued profiling my printers, papers and inks. Does the monitor profile improve the second batch of printer profiles?
Click to expand...
No. The display profile has nothing to directly do with the output profile. It's only role is providing a color managed preview. HOW you calibrate, the target calibration aim points plays a huge role here:

Why are my prints too dark?

A video update to a written piece on subject from 2013

In this 24 minute video, I'll cover:

Are your prints really too dark?

Display calibration and WYSIWYG

Proper print viewing conditions

Trouble shooting to get a match

Avoiding kludges that don't solve the problem

High resolution: http://digitaldog.net/files/Why_are_my_prints_too_dark.mp4

Low resolution:
 
You are not going to have good workflow without display calibration and printer profiles are not going to work. Junk in junk out.
 
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