Slog-2

caste1200 · May 5, 2016

hello guys!

I'm currently shooting a video of downhill mountain bike, so most of the shots are low light and in the forest..

Ive been having a lot of truble working with Slog2 in this conditions, im guessing is not the best way to shoot this kind of footage..

Anyone can help me with this?

beginner here..

thanks!

baltimorecaesar · May 5, 2016

As a beginner, I would actually advise against Slog2, and would just shoot in the flat or standard mode instead. What program are you using to process your video?

alextardif · May 5, 2016

What kind of trouble are you running into?

balazer2 · May 5, 2016

I suggest using Cine1 gamma with Still or Pro color. It's much easier to expose and set white balance for, and much easier to color correct in post. On these cameras, the dynamic range is no worse in Cine1 than in S-Log2 or S-Log3.

inferno10 · May 6, 2016

With S-Log2, you really have to expose to the right to get a clean image. Underexposure, or even shooting at +/- 0 EV will result in a pretty noisy image. Use this video for some guidance:

Lea5 · May 6, 2016

alextardif said:
What kind of trouble are you running into?

--
Alex

Hi Alex, I gave you a reply about the Sony 28-135 lens, but DPR didn't sent out my reply to you. Technical difficulties I guess :/

alextardif · May 6, 2016

Ah, yeah, noting in the inbox... DPR issues I guess!

I actually made some big changes to my kit yesterday after shooting a model promo for 11 hours and getting annoyed with the big rig... shelving my matt box/4x4 NDs for the 28-135 zoom along with NDs! A friend of mine brought a NiSi variable ND that's made for Hassy and comes in 95mm (I've seen it before on the web, just wasn't sure of the quality) and it ended up being superb on the 28-135. I ordered one last last night from China, it should be arriving in a few days. It's slim enough to keep the factory hood on, which is absolutely fantastic.

But the bigger change is that I'm really going to stick to Loxias for 95% of my video shooting going forward until I can/want to move up to something like Xeens. In the meantime I'm just tired of lugging around the 28-135 for the kid of shoots I do, it's simply not that practical by the time the whole rig is up and definitely not as mobile as I prefer. I love that glass, it's all Sony claims it to be, I'm just going to shelve it except for the shooting where that reach, AF, and zoom are really important. Frankly, the more I get into motion the more I understand why this PZ is really geared for eng work, not feature film/shorts work that I aspire to do. Who knows, I might splurge on FS5 down the line and pair those two, but for now it'll be taking a back seat

caste1200 · May 6, 2016

baltimorecaesar said:
As a beginner, I would actually advise against Slog2, and would just shoot in the flat or standard mode instead. What program are you using to process your video?

I'm using Premiere pro cc 2015, got some LUTs from Visioncolor impulz ultimate,

but its hard using LUTs because of the conditions and im also a total noob

caste1200 · May 6, 2016

alextardif said:
What kind of trouble are you running into?

caste1200 · May 6, 2016

inferno10 said:
With S-Log2, you really have to expose to the right to get a clean image. Underexposure, or even shooting at +/- 0 EV will result in a pretty noisy image. Use this video for some guidance:

caste1200 · May 23, 2016

thanks man,

what about cine4? why cine1 is simply easier to work with later? and what are really the differences between pro and still?

ronscuba · May 23, 2016

I am inexperienced with using LUTs so I have been using cine1 and cine4 with sgamut3.cine color.

Seems to be working pretty well for range and color. Just a few small adjustments in editing to contrast and saturation gives me natural accurate looking colors.

balazer2 · May 23, 2016

There is not much difference between Pro and Still color. Their primary colorimetry are both very close to the sRGB standard of a normal monitor. Pick whichever one looks better to you.

Cine1 is a well-defined Sony color space also known as HyperGamma 4. So using Cine1 opens up the possibility of using LUTs later, as well as being easy to correct by hand. Cine4 is not specified by Sony, so for now at least it only lends itself to manual color correction.

S-Gamut3.cine is meant to be used in combination with S-Log3. It's not much use with Cine1 or Cine4, and it will require correction that is difficult to do by hand if you are using a standard monitor. It's designed to be close to the DCI-P3 cinema standard. I don't imagine you are using a DCI-P3 monitor.

ronscuba · May 23, 2016

balazer2 said:
There is not much difference between Pro and Still color. Their primary colorimetry are both very close to the sRGB standard of a normal monitor. Pick whichever one looks better to you.

Cine1 is a well-defined Sony color space also known as HyperGamma 4. So using Cine1 opens up the possibility of using LUTs later, as well as being easy to correct by hand. Cine4 is not specified by Sony, so for now at least it only lends itself to manual color correction.

S-Gamut3.cine is meant to be used in combination with S-Log3. It's not much use with Cine1 or Cine4, and it will require correction that is difficult to do by hand if you are using a standard monitor. It's designed to be close to the DCI-P3 cinema standard. I don't imagine you are using a DCI-P3 monitor.

According to what I read, S-gamut3.cine was created to have a wider color range, but similar color shape profile to rec709. Meaning, natural colors, but wider color range. Cine 1-4 and the slogs are gamma curves for exposure dynamic range.

I read a recommendation to use cine1 or cine4 gamma with S-gamut3.cine color mode for wide dynamic range in exposure and color, but easier correction in post,

Have you experimented with S-Gamut3.cine with cine 1 or cine 4 ?

If not, give it a short test try. I did and liked the results just adjusting saturation and contrast. I found slogs too noisy and hard to work with. Sgamut and sgamut3 were also difficult.

balazer2 · May 23, 2016

A wider color gamut does not mean more accurate color. If the gamut of the recorded images does not match the gamut of your display device, you'll have less accurate color, and in a way that is impossible to fully correct with standard color correction tools. A proper gamut transformation requires you to linearize the color values and then use a matrix transformation. Turning up the saturation is a poor approximation of the proper gamut transformation.

Even if you were targeting a wide-gamut type of display, you'd hardly notice the difference that capture in a wide gamut color space could offer. Natural images don't contain a lot of the super-saturated colors that are outside of the Rec.709 gamut, and even when they do, gamut clamping is rarely noticeable. And recording to a wider with only 8 bits can significantly increase color quantization errors, due to the lack of precision in the Cb and Cr channels.

Computer monitors, mobile devices, and HDTVs all use the Rec.709/sRGB gamut. You'll get more accurate color with less need to adjust in post if you shoot with a color mode as close to the Rec.709 gamut as you can get. Still and Pro are very close to the Rec.709 gamut. (closer than the ITU709 setting, oddly enough)

S-Gamut3.Cine is not close at all to the Rec.709/sRGB gamut. See page 2 of this document:

https://pro.sony.com/bbsccms/assets...ry_for_S-Gamut3Cine_S-Gamut3_S-Log3_V1_01.pdf

ronscuba · May 23, 2016

balazer2 said:
A wider color gamut does not mean more accurate color. If the gamut of the recorded images does not match the gamut of your display device, you'll have less accurate color, and in a way that is impossible to fully correct with standard color correction tools. A proper gamut transformation requires you to linearize the color values and then use a matrix transformation. Turning up the saturation is a poor approximation of the proper gamut transformation.

Even if you were targeting a wide-gamut type of display, you'd hardly notice the difference that capture in a wide gamut color space could offer. Natural images don't contain a lot of the super-saturated colors that are outside of the Rec.709 gamut, and even when they do, gamut clamping is rarely noticeable. And recording to a wider with only 8 bits can significantly increase color quantization errors, due to the lack of precision in the Cb and Cr channels.

Computer monitors, mobile devices, and HDTVs all use the Rec.709/sRGB gamut. You'll get more accurate color with less need to adjust in post if you shoot with a color mode as close to the Rec.709 gamut as you can get. Still and Pro are very close to the Rec.709 gamut. (closer than the ITU709 setting, oddly enough)

S-Gamut3.Cine is not close at all to the Rec.709/sRGB gamut. See page 2 of this document:

https://pro.sony.com/bbsccms/assets...ry_for_S-Gamut3Cine_S-Gamut3_S-Log3_V1_01.pdf

Sorry, I am a little confused.

The article you linked reads like it is recommending s-gamut3.cine because it is easier to grade. It also states the the color space is similar to TV production but wider to allow room for grading.

Page 2 shows a color graph and s-gamut3.cine is bigger but a similar shape to rec 709.

Is this a matter of preference whether to record flatter to give more options in editing vs. recording accurately ?

DAndison · May 23, 2016

Avoid Slog unless you are really comfortable with grading. You can still use your LUTs on other flat profiles. I'd suggest using Cine2 or Cine4 with Pro colour mode.

Here's a thread with Tons of advice. There should be an excel file in there that documents the collective settings that are spread over the 8 pages.SOme really good profiles there that should have you up and running. Some don't require any grading at all.

For outdoor work I prefer Cine2 as in controls highlights really well but allows you to use ISO 200 instead of the higher ISO required by Slog2/3.

Edit - Don't use S-gamut either. It has a tendency to leave a yellow-green cast that is very hard to remove in post.

balazer2 · May 23, 2016

What Sony said is that S-Gamut3.Cine is easier to grade than S-Gamut3, because S-Gamut3.Cine is close to the color space of a motion picture negative film scan. Do you have experience grading motion picture negative film scans? If not, you'll have a much easier time dealing with Still or Pro, which are very close to the color space of a standard monitor. Don't worry about "room for grading". You won't be doing the type of grading that a wider gamut would help with. And the shapes in the xy chromaticity diagram don't mean anything. They are all triangles. The shapes don't tell you how similar the gamuts are to each other. It's the coordinates that matter, and the coordinates are way different for S-Gamut3.Cine and Rec.709.

ronscuba · May 23, 2016

A lot of information in that link.

Although I am not having any problems grading sgamut3.cine, I will have to give the pro color mode a try as many of the recommended profiles are using it.

balazer2 · May 23, 2016

DAndison said:
I'd suggest using Cine2 or Cine4 with Pro colour mode.

The only difference between Cine2 and Cine1 is that Cine2 uses a smaller range of color values, with white clipping at 100% instead of 109%. If your workflow provides access to the "superwhite" values above 100%, Cine1 is just as good as Cine2, aside from one issue: zebras can't be configured above 100%.

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