What's wrong with D610 test scene?

BirgerH · Apr 15, 2016

crashpc said:
BirgerH said:

crashpc said:

Absolutely. Whatever it really does, i got much better results with it. Even cropped JPEG stream is way better than pure digital zoom.

Click to expand...

Cropping (and enlarging) a jpg - streamed or whatever - is pure digital zooming.

Click to expand...

No. Crop, enlargement and digital zoom are quite different things.

Nope - same thing.

crashpc said:
You always enlarge your images on screen. Noone looks at 24Mpx image on native screen size to sensor.

No - I'm not. Some times I look at my images at 1:1. But whenever I am looking at my images at another "size" - resolution of the output is changed from the captured by digital manipulation.

crashpc said:
crashpc said:

Why do you think, your focus-box (the area, where the AF find the best point of focus) is being enlarged proportionally to the zooming?

Click to expand...

Because i am enlarging everything the same way, on that "tinny to look at" image sensor.

Yes - correct - but how does it help to have more accurate focus. The "Box" in the screen image has no connection with the AF-system and the image sensor, other than it shows you, the area of which, the system will find a focus-point. That area has the same size no matter the zooming!!!

crashpc said:
crashpc said:

The AF-system will find the exactly same spot in the square to focus at - no matter you are zooming in or not -

Click to expand...

Yes. And so?

Yeah - my question - then why bother zoom?

crashpc said:
crashpc said:

and if using MF - you have a lot of less details for your eyes to MF at.

Click to expand...

No. DoF is made of many parameters, and one of these is image size. With larger image size, I have less dof, therefore I can focus more precisely.

Wasn't speaking about dof - about details.

How can you focus more precise with less dof. The camera does not focus "from what you see", when using AF - it focuses from what the sensor sees.

When using MF - there might be an advantage in "zooming" in relation to the dof - but it goes away (imo) with the less resolution in the image and the less edge sharpness of the (fewer) details.

crashpc said:
crashpc said:

EVF's and lcd's are not showing you, what the sensor "sees" - that's an illusion - but well - photography is an illusion too - an imagination anyway

Click to expand...

Yes. These show me what I want. OVF does not. With evf i focus on milimeters precision. With ovf, I don't most of the time.

That's what you should have then. Every body should buy the camera, that works best for them - and they are out there - just as Nikon (luckily) still deliver what works best for me.

From where I come - can't say, it's so everywhere - nobody is forced to buy Nikon DSLR's, when they don't like the way, Nikon makes them, they are allowed to buy from manufacturers, that make cameras made as they like.

crashpc said:
crashpc said:

BirgerH.

Click to expand...

BirgerH.

crashpc · Apr 16, 2016

BirgerH said:
crashpc said:

BirgerH said:

crashpc said:

Absolutely. Whatever it really does, i got much better results with it. Even cropped JPEG stream is way better than pure digital zoom.

Click to expand...

Cropping (and enlarging) a jpg - streamed or whatever - is pure digital zooming.

Click to expand...

No. Crop, enlargement and digital zoom are quite different things.

Click to expand...

Nope - same thing.

Mapping pixel of the sensor to the pixel of the screen, no matter how pixels of the screen are, is not digital zoom. Digital zoom has very different effect on the image. Seems you need to learn a lot.

BirgerH said:
BirgerH said:

You always enlarge your images on screen. Noone looks at 24Mpx image on native screen size to sensor.

Click to expand...

No - I'm not. Some times I look at my images at 1:1.

1:1 means the size of the sensor. You have screen with physical size of your sensor?

BirgerH said:
But whenever I am looking at my images at another "size" - resolution of the output is changed from the captured by digital manipulation.

Is it?

BirgerH said:
BirgerH said:

BirgerH said:

Why do you think, your focus-box (the area, where the AF find the best point of focus) is being enlarged proportionally to the zooming?

Click to expand...

Because i am enlarging everything the same way, on that "tinny to look at" image sensor.

Click to expand...

Yes - correct - but how does it help to have more accurate focus.

The image sensor has so much resolution, that your eye cannot see. By enlarging the image, you can. Depends on MFT of your eyes.

BirgerH said:
The "Box" in the screen image has no connection with the AF-system and the image sensor, other than it shows you, the area of which, the system will find a focus-point. That area has the same size no matter the zooming!!!

And so?

BirgerH said:
BirgerH said:

BirgerH said:

The AF-system will find the exactly same spot in the square to focus at - no matter you are zooming in or not -

Click to expand...

Yes. And so?

Click to expand...

Yeah - my question - then why bother zoom?

Because you'll see more detail. That's how microscopes and telescopes work.

BirgerH said:
BirgerH said:

BirgerH said:

and if using MF - you have a lot of less details for your eyes to MF at.

Click to expand...

No. DoF is made of many parameters, and one of these is image size. With larger image size, I have less dof, therefore I can focus more precisely.

Click to expand...

Wasn't speaking about dof - about details.

The same issue applies.

BirgerH said:
How can you focus more precise with less dof.

Because I see where is the focus point on milimeter basis. With large dof, I might miss the place I want.to focus on.

BirgerH said:
The camera does not focus "from what you see", when using AF - it focuses from what the sensor sees.

I focus my cmera. With sligt help of af sensor. Sometimes....

BirgerH said:
When using MF - there might be an advantage in "zooming" in relation to the dof - but it goes away (imo) with the less resolution in the image and the less edge sharpness of the (fewer) details.

There is no less details, but.more, for my eyes. Already explained with MFT of ones eyes, and absolute resolution of the sensor.

BirgerH said:
BirgerH said:

BirgerH said:

EVF's and lcd's are not showing you, what the sensor "sees" - that's an illusion - but well - photography is an illusion too - an imagination anyway

Click to expand...

Yes. These show me what I want. OVF does not. With evf i focus on milimeters precision. With ovf, I don't most of the time.

Click to expand...

That's what you should have then. Every body should buy the camera, that works best for them - and they are out there - just as Nikon (luckily) still deliver what works best for me.

From where I come - can't say, it's so everywhere - nobody is forced to buy Nikon DSLR's, when they don't like the way, Nikon makes them, they are allowed to buy from manufacturers, that make cameras made as they like.

BirgerH said:

BirgerH said:

BirgerH.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

BirgerH.

BirgerH · Apr 16, 2016

crashpc said:
BirgerH said:

crashpc said:

BirgerH said:

crashpc said:

Absolutely. Whatever it really does, i got much better results with it. Even cropped JPEG stream is way better than pure digital zoom.

Click to expand...

Cropping (and enlarging) a jpg - streamed or whatever - is pure digital zooming.

Click to expand...

No. Crop, enlargement and digital zoom are quite different things.

Click to expand...

Nope - same thing.

Click to expand...

Mapping pixel of the sensor to the pixel of the screen, no matter how pixels of the screen are, is not digital zoom. Digital zoom has very different effect on the image. Seems you need to learn a lot.

That's not what happens. The camera shows you a streamed output - and is zooming on that.

crashpc said:
crashpc said:

crashpc said:

You always enlarge your images on screen. Noone looks at 24Mpx image on native screen size to sensor.

Click to expand...

No - I'm not. Some times I look at my images at 1:1.

Click to expand...

1:1 means the size of the sensor. You have screen with physical size of your sensor?

It is - what's the size of a pixel?

1:1 means, that you are viewing 24Mpix from the captured (manipulated ) image using 24Mpix of the media, you are using. That's 1 sensor-pixel (not quite right because of software interpolation) for 1 media pixel.

crashpc said:
crashpc said:

But whenever I am looking at my images at another "size" - resolution of the output is changed from the captured by digital manipulation.

Click to expand...

Is it?

Yes - every enlargement changes resolution.

crashpc said:
crashpc said:

crashpc said:

crashpc said:

Why do you think, your focus-box (the area, where the AF find the best point of focus) is being enlarged proportionally to the zooming?

Click to expand...

Because i am enlarging everything the same way, on that "tinny to look at" image sensor.

Click to expand...

Yes - correct - but how does it help to have more accurate focus.

Click to expand...

The image sensor has so much resolution, that your eye cannot see. By enlarging the image, you can. Depends on MFT of your eyes.

Agree. But resolution is the ability to hold details - enlarging means, that you loose details - no matter if they can be seen by your eyes or not. And the AF-system takes no respect to, what you are able to see with your eyes.

The real problem here, is that you are not enlarging anything relating to the sensor - you are enlarging an image, that has all ready been loosing details by being manipulated (interpolated) to a 1K dot image. That's being done by digital zooming=adding pixels by interpolation=loosing image resolution.

Just try zooming in - if your final image shown at 100% (1:1) looks anything alike the zoomed image on our lcd - you can't be satisfied with you final product.

crashpc said:
crashpc said:

The "Box" in the screen image has no connection with the AF-system and the image sensor, other than it shows you, the area of which, the system will find a focus-point. That area has the same size no matter the zooming!!!

Click to expand...

And so?

crashpc said:

crashpc said:

crashpc said:

The AF-system will find the exactly same spot in the square to focus at - no matter you are zooming in or not -

Click to expand...

Yes. And so?

Click to expand...

Yeah - my question - then why bother zoom?

Click to expand...

Because you'll see more detail. That's how microscopes and telescopes work.

No - it's not.

Microscopes and telescopes work with optical zoom. That's a biiig difference.

crashpc said:
crashpc said:

crashpc said:

crashpc said:

and if using MF - you have a lot of less details for your eyes to MF at.

Click to expand...

No. DoF is made of many parameters, and one of these is image size. With larger image size, I have less dof, therefore I can focus more precisely.

Click to expand...

Wasn't speaking about dof - about details.

Click to expand...

The same issue applies.

crashpc said:

How can you focus more precise with less dof.

Click to expand...

Because I see where is the focus point on milimeter basis. With large dof, I might miss the place I want.to focus on.

But the camera doesn't! When using AF.

Using MF - There might be an advantage - anyway when shooting LiveView - not by having less dof, I mean - but having a larger sdubject to focus at. My experience is, that I find it no better, than the OVF and the confirmation dot.

But I'm not doing MF that much.

I'm very sure, that if I were using LiveView - and MF too - I would never want to go with Nikon - which is specialized for Viewfinder photography - and these days AF too. That brings me back to my ever wonder: Why considering a camera, that in basic is designed for OVF-shooting and PDAF AF-ing if that's not the primary shooting pattern?

crashpc said:
crashpc said:

The camera does not focus "from what you see", when using AF - it focuses from what the sensor sees.

Click to expand...

I focus my cmera. With sligt help of af sensor. Sometimes....

Nope - not when using AF. The AF-system uses the sensor. Using AF means, as the word says, that the camera does the focusing.

crashpc said:
crashpc said:

When using MF - there might be an advantage in "zooming" in relation to the dof - but it goes away (imo) with the less resolution in the image and the less edge sharpness of the (fewer) details.

Click to expand...

There is no less details, but.more, for my eyes. Already explained with MFT of ones eyes, and absolute resolution of the sensor.

The AF-system shows no respect to, what your eyes sees. Because - again - what your eyes see has nothing (not much anyway) left to do with the sensor. Meaning - your eyes and the AF-system do not see the same image.

BirgerH.

crashpc · Apr 16, 2016

BirgerH said:
crashpc said:

BirgerH said:

crashpc said:

BirgerH said:

crashpc said:

Absolutely. Whatever it really does, i got much better results with it. Even cropped JPEG stream is way better than pure digital zoom.

Click to expand...

Cropping (and enlarging) a jpg - streamed or whatever - is pure digital zooming.

Click to expand...

No. Crop, enlargement and digital zoom are quite different things.

Click to expand...

Nope - same thing.

Click to expand...

Mapping pixel of the sensor to the pixel of the screen, no matter how pixels of the screen are, is not digital zoom. Digital zoom has very different effect on the image. Seems you need to learn a lot.

Click to expand...

That's not what happens. The camera shows you a streamed output - and is zooming on that.

It becomes harder and hardwr to answer via phone. Srsly ;-)

There is no easier way to find, measuring MTF (by eye can be enaugh) and compare what I see on the display, and what image ai got on my memory card.

Will do that to find out.

BirgerH said:
BirgerH said:

BirgerH said:

BirgerH said:

You always enlarge your images on screen. Noone looks at 24Mpx image on native screen size to sensor.

Click to expand...

No - I'm not. Some times I look at my images at 1:1.

Click to expand...

1:1 means the size of the sensor. You have screen with physical size of your sensor?

Click to expand...

It is - what's the size of a pixel?

1:1 means, that you are viewing 24Mpix from the captured (manipulated ) image using 24Mpix of the media, you are using. That's 1 sensor-pixel (not quite right because of software interpolation) for 1 media pixel.

And this I believe you do when looking at in-camera magnified view.

Why should it not be like that...

BirgerH said:
BirgerH said:

BirgerH said:

But whenever I am looking at my images at another "size" - resolution of the output is changed from the captured by digital manipulation.

Click to expand...

Is it?

Click to expand...

Yes - every enlargement changes resolution.

No.

BirgerH said:
BirgerH said:

BirgerH said:

BirgerH said:

BirgerH said:

Why do you think, your focus-box (the area, where the AF find the best point of focus) is being enlarged proportionally to the zooming?

Click to expand...

Because i am enlarging everything the same way, on that "tinny to look at" image sensor.

Click to expand...

Yes - correct - but how does it help to have more accurate focus.

Click to expand...

The image sensor has so much resolution, that your eye cannot see. By enlarging the image, you can. Depends on MFT of your eyes.

Click to expand...

Agree. But resolution is the ability to hold details - enlarging means, that you loose details

No. It doesn't matter how big those megapixels of detail are physically. To a point. You don't magically get less megapixels of resolution when seeing those magnified.

BirgerH said:
- no matter if they can be seen by your eyes or not. And the AF-system takes no respect to, what you are able to see with your eyes.

I do my focus, and I take respect to what I see. With not magnified view, I don't see much. How about 1/2.3" sensors. Would you be able to focus manually on that image size?

BirgerH said:
The real problem here, is that you are not enlarging anything relating to the sensor - you are enlarging an image, that has all ready been loosing details by being manipulated (interpolated) to a 1K dot image.

That sir, I will show you, is terribly wrong.

BirgerH said:
That's being done by digital zooming=adding pixels by interpolation=loosing image resolution.

No. Will bring my proof later on.

BirgerH said:
Just try zooming in - if your final image shown at 100% (1:1) looks anything alike the zoomed image on our lcd - you can't be satisfied with you final product.

Actually, it looks better than the image I take in full res to me.

BirgerH said:
BirgerH said:

BirgerH said:

The "Box" in the screen image has no connection with the AF-system and the image sensor, other than it shows you, the area of which, the system will find a focus-point. That area has the same size no matter the zooming!!!

Click to expand...

And so?

BirgerH said:

BirgerH said:

BirgerH said:

The AF-system will find the exactly same spot in the square to focus at - no matter you are zooming in or not -

Click to expand...

Yes. And so?

Click to expand...

Yeah - my question - then why bother zoom?

Click to expand...

Because you'll see more detail. That's how microscopes and telescopes work.

Click to expand...

No - it's not.

Microscopes and telescopes work with optical zoom. That's a biiig difference.

The sMe difference to the cropping and digital zoomimg.

BirgerH said:
BirgerH said:

BirgerH said:

BirgerH said:

BirgerH said:

and if using MF - you have a lot of less details for your eyes to MF at.

Click to expand...

No. DoF is made of many parameters, and one of these is image size. With larger image size, I have less dof, therefore I can focus more precisely.

Click to expand...

Wasn't speaking about dof - about details.

Click to expand...

The same issue applies.

BirgerH said:

How can you focus more precise with less dof.

Click to expand...

Because I see where is the focus point on milimeter basis. With large dof, I might miss the place I want.to focus on.

Click to expand...

But the camera doesn't! When using AF.

That's why I use MF a lot.

BirgerH said:
Using MF - There might be an advantage - anyway when shooting LiveView - not by having less dof, I mean - but having a larger sdubject to focus at. My experience is, that I find it no better, than the OVF and the confirmation dot.

Different guys, different strokes...

BirgerH said:
But I'm not doing MF that much.

I'm very sure, that if I were using LiveView - and MF too - I would never want to go with Nikon - which is specialized for Viewfinder photography - and these days AF too. That brings me back to my ever wonder: Why considering a camera, that in basic is designed for OVF-shooting and PDAF AF-ing if that's not the primary shooting pattern?

Might be the way of enlarging the image different between camera brands and.models?

Maybe my Canon crops, your nikon digitally zooms. If that will be the case, I will be forced to.stay with Canon.

BirgerH said:
BirgerH said:

BirgerH said:

The camera does not focus "from what you see", when using AF - it focuses from what the sensor sees.

Click to expand...

I focus my cmera. With sligt help of af sensor. Sometimes....

Click to expand...

Nope - not when using AF. The AF-system uses the sensor. Using AF means, as the word says, that the camera does the focusing.

BirgerH said:

BirgerH said:

When using MF - there might be an advantage in "zooming" in relation to the dof - but it goes away (imo) with the less resolution in the image and the less edge sharpness of the (fewer) details.

Click to expand...

There is no less details, but.more, for my eyes. Already explained with MFT of ones eyes, and absolute resolution of the sensor.

Click to expand...

The AF-system shows no respect to, what your eyes sees. Because - again - what your eyes see has nothing (not much anyway) left to do with the sensor. Meaning - your eyes and the AF-system do not see the same image.

Here we can agree. Somehow...

BirgerH said:
BirgerH.

BirgerH · Apr 16, 2016

crashpc said:
BirgerH said:

crashpc said:

BirgerH said:

crashpc said:

BirgerH said:

crashpc said:

Absolutely. Whatever it really does, i got much better results with it. Even cropped JPEG stream is way better than pure digital zoom.

Click to expand...

Cropping (and enlarging) a jpg - streamed or whatever - is pure digital zooming.

Click to expand...

No. Crop, enlargement and digital zoom are quite different things.

Click to expand...

Nope - same thing.

Click to expand...

Mapping pixel of the sensor to the pixel of the screen, no matter how pixels of the screen are, is not digital zoom. Digital zoom has very different effect on the image. Seems you need to learn a lot.

Click to expand...

That's not what happens. The camera shows you a streamed output - and is zooming on that.

Click to expand...

It becomes harder and hardwr to answer via phone. Srsly ;-)

My daughter can - wonder how

crashpc said:
There is no easier way to find, measuring MTF (by eye can be enaugh) and compare what I see on the display, and what image ai got on my memory card.

Will do that to find out.

crashpc said:

crashpc said:

crashpc said:

crashpc said:

You always enlarge your images on screen. Noone looks at 24Mpx image on native screen size to sensor.

Click to expand...

No - I'm not. Some times I look at my images at 1:1.

Click to expand...

1:1 means the size of the sensor. You have screen with physical size of your sensor?

Click to expand...

It is - what's the size of a pixel?

1:1 means, that you are viewing 24Mpix from the captured (manipulated ) image using 24Mpix of the media, you are using. That's 1 sensor-pixel (not quite right because of software interpolation) for 1 media pixel.

Click to expand...

And this I believe you do when looking at in-camera magnified view.

Sorry - but no. Not when previewing. That's a real time streamed video-format, that is being cropped and enlarged. That's why, it's not a "crop from the sensor".

crashpc said:
Why should it not be like that...

Because it's live view - not a still image.

crashpc said:
crashpc said:

crashpc said:

crashpc said:

But whenever I am looking at my images at another "size" - resolution of the output is changed from the captured by digital manipulation.

Click to expand...

Is it?

Click to expand...

Yes - every enlargement changes resolution.

Click to expand...

No.

Yes. Take a crop on your computer - enlarge it to the same viewing size as the uncropped - resolution will change, because of interpolating = less details. Same happens, if you "double" the size of the uncropped - you have more pixels, but they are added by interpolation - again less details.

crashpc said:
crashpc said:

crashpc said:

crashpc said:

crashpc said:

crashpc said:

Why do you think, your focus-box (the area, where the AF find the best point of focus) is being enlarged proportionally to the zooming?

Click to expand...

Because i am enlarging everything the same way, on that "tinny to look at" image sensor.

Click to expand...

Yes - correct - but how does it help to have more accurate focus.

Click to expand...

The image sensor has so much resolution, that your eye cannot see. By enlarging the image, you can. Depends on MFT of your eyes.

Click to expand...

Agree. But resolution is the ability to hold details - enlarging means, that you loose details

Click to expand...

No. It doesn't matter how big those megapixels of detail are physically. To a point. You don't magically get less megapixels of resolution when seeing those magnified.

Pixels have no size. The sizes of pixels depends on your viewing media. You are not "magnifying" the pixels - you are "adding or subtracting" pixels by interpolating.

crashpc said:
crashpc said:

- no matter if they can be seen by your eyes or not. And the AF-system takes no respect to, what you are able to see with your eyes.

Click to expand...

I do my focus, and I take respect to what I see.

Only when MF.

crashpc said:
With not magnified view, I don't see much. How about 1/2.3" sensors. Would you be able to focus manually on that image size?

You are not looking at the sensor. You are looking at an manipulated image made by camera software viewed on a screen. The AF-system is "looking" at the sensor.

crashpc said:
crashpc said:

The real problem here, is that you are not enlarging anything relating to the sensor - you are enlarging an image, that has all ready been loosing details by being manipulated (interpolated) to a 1K dot image.

Click to expand...

That sir, I will show you, is terribly wrong.

I see.

crashpc said:
crashpc said:

That's being done by digital zooming=adding pixels by interpolation=loosing image resolution.

Click to expand...

No. Will bring my proof later on.

crashpc said:

Just try zooming in - if your final image shown at 100% (1:1) looks anything alike the zoomed image on our lcd - you can't be satisfied with you final product.

Click to expand...

Actually, it looks better than the image I take in full res to me.

Hmm... strange. I have tried all my three cameras - and is by far having a contrary result.

crashpc said:
crashpc said:

crashpc said:

crashpc said:

The "Box" in the screen image has no connection with the AF-system and the image sensor, other than it shows you, the area of which, the system will find a focus-point. That area has the same size no matter the zooming!!!

Click to expand...

And so?

crashpc said:

crashpc said:

crashpc said:

The AF-system will find the exactly same spot in the square to focus at - no matter you are zooming in or not -

Click to expand...

Yes. And so?

Click to expand...

Yeah - my question - then why bother zoom?

Click to expand...

Because you'll see more detail. That's how microscopes and telescopes work.

Click to expand...

No - it's not.

Microscopes and telescopes work with optical zoom. That's a biiig difference.

Click to expand...

The sMe difference to the cropping and digital zoomimg.

Just as different as using lens zoom and "crop" zoom.

crashpc said:
crashpc said:

crashpc said:

crashpc said:

crashpc said:

crashpc said:

and if using MF - you have a lot of less details for your eyes to MF at.

Click to expand...

No. DoF is made of many parameters, and one of these is image size. With larger image size, I have less dof, therefore I can focus more precisely.

Click to expand...

Wasn't speaking about dof - about details.

Click to expand...

The same issue applies.

crashpc said:

How can you focus more precise with less dof.

Click to expand...

Because I see where is the focus point on milimeter basis. With large dof, I might miss the place I want.to focus on.

Click to expand...

But the camera doesn't! When using AF.

Click to expand...

That's why I use MF a lot.

That makes sense.

crashpc said:
crashpc said:

Using MF - There might be an advantage - anyway when shooting LiveView - not by having less dof, I mean - but having a larger sdubject to focus at. My experience is, that I find it no better, than the OVF and the confirmation dot.

Click to expand...

Different guys, different strokes...

That makes really sense....

crashpc said:
crashpc said:

But I'm not doing MF that much.

I'm very sure, that if I were using LiveView - and MF too - I would never want to go with Nikon - which is specialized for Viewfinder photography - and these days AF too. That brings me back to my ever wonder: Why considering a camera, that in basic is designed for OVF-shooting and PDAF AF-ing if that's not the primary shooting pattern?

Click to expand...

Might be the way of enlarging the image different between camera brands and.models?

No.

crashpc said:
Maybe my Canon crops, your nikon digitally zooms. If that will be the case, I will be forced to.stay with Canon.

Cropping - and then enlarging to give you the "magnified" view is digital zooming. Canon and Nikon does it similarly, there's no other way - just Canon has a better implementation of "Real Time Exposure".

crashpc said:
crashpc said:

crashpc said:

crashpc said:

The camera does not focus "from what you see", when using AF - it focuses from what the sensor sees.

Click to expand...

I focus my cmera. With sligt help of af sensor. Sometimes....

Click to expand...

Nope - not when using AF. The AF-system uses the sensor. Using AF means, as the word says, that the camera does the focusing.

crashpc said:

crashpc said:

When using MF - there might be an advantage in "zooming" in relation to the dof - but it goes away (imo) with the less resolution in the image and the less edge sharpness of the (fewer) details.

Click to expand...

There is no less details, but.more, for my eyes. Already explained with MFT of ones eyes, and absolute resolution of the sensor.

Click to expand...

The AF-system shows no respect to, what your eyes sees. Because - again - what your eyes see has nothing (not much anyway) left to do with the sensor. Meaning - your eyes and the AF-system do not see the same image.

Click to expand...

Here we can agree. Somehow...

Just somehow?

crashpc said:
crashpc said:

BirgerH.

Click to expand...

crashpc · Apr 16, 2016

Yes, just.

I'll look.at that later at home. I belueve I see pixels of the sensor mapped right on the pixel of the rear LCD.

crashpc · Apr 16, 2016

So I did my test...

I positively see more detail when magnified image is projected on that 1Mpx sensor, compared to FullHD image on my PC screen (Calibrated IPS Dell, 2560p). Significantly more detailed. Even that poor Canon JPEG engine does significantly better job. Of course, after opening RAW in LR gives me even tad better image. But once I downsize the image to FullHD, and try to make out any detail from it, it is LOST. Not so on the rear LCD of my camera. Go figure.

I tried to search around the internet, and it is not mentioned how is the image streamed to the rear LCD. For base logic, the whole image is taken by at least 30FPS anyway, so why not downsize it for your screen and stream it, and why not cut the part and stream it when you use magnification.

BirgerH · Apr 16, 2016

crashpc said:
So I did my test...

I positively see more detail when magnified image is projected on that 1Mpx sensor, compared to FullHD image on my PC screen (Calibrated IPS Dell, 2560p). Significantly more detailed. Even that poor Canon JPEG engine does significantly better job. Of course, after opening RAW in LR gives me even tad better image. But once I downsize the image to FullHD, and try to make out any detail from it, it is LOST. Not so on the rear LCD of my camera. Go figure.

I tried to search around the internet, and it is not mentioned how is the image streamed to the rear LCD. For base logic, the whole image is taken by at least 30FPS anyway, so why not downsize it for your screen and stream it, and why not cut the part and stream it when you use magnification.

Well... How did you do that. How did you capture the zoomed in streamed jpg?

BirgerH.

crashpc · Apr 16, 2016

I really didn't. No reason for me to go fullblast "laboratory" measurements, although I know how I would do that. Shooting custom MTF chart, shooting high res image of the rear LCD, then measuring RGB values, comparing if LCD stream keeps up with black_white_black frequencies.

I just put some small text in front of my camera far enaugh, to barely read it when zoomed in 10x. Then I took the image, opened in LR, and saw little bit better outcome. Downsized it to FullHD, as it should be downsampled live video stream, right? With FullHD res, I could not make out any of those small letters. Too low resoluiion. No magnification would help that grey mush.

Also, the display is lower reaolution type than FullHD. At that resolution, it would be very bad to zoom into anything.

BirgerH · Apr 16, 2016

crashpc said:
I really didn't. No reason for me to go fullblast "laboratory" measurements, although I know how I would do that. Shooting custom MTF chart, shooting high res image of the rear LCD, then measuring RGB values, comparing if LCD stream keeps up with black_white_black frequencies.

I just put some small text in front of my camera far enaugh, to barely read it when zoomed in 10x. Then I took the image, opened in LR, and saw little bit better outcome. Downsized it to FullHD, as it should be downsampled live video stream, right? With FullHD res, I could not make out any of those small letters. Too low resoluiion. No magnification would help that grey mush.

Also, the display is lower reaolution type than FullHD. At that resolution, it would be very bad to zoom into anything.

No - because you can't.

What you are looking at in the live-stream, can't be captured.

What is shown on the lcd until capturing is a low resolution (about 350 Kpixel - 3 screen-pixels pr. image-pixels) video stream - when you zoom, you zoom in on that. You can't capture that "image" for a compare. (What you looks at on the lcd, while capturing video, is still a low resolution video-stream - but what is being captured is a "full" resolution video.)

As soon as you capture - no matter if it is still or video, the camera captures in the resolution, that is set. When you afterwards looks at the captured image on the lcd-screen, the camera deals with a "full" resolution image.

BirgerH.

crashpc · Apr 16, 2016

BirgerH said:
crashpc said:

I really didn't. No reason for me to go fullblast "laboratory" measurements, although I know how I would do that. Shooting custom MTF chart, shooting high res image of the rear LCD, then measuring RGB values, comparing if LCD stream keeps up with black_white_black frequencies.

I just put some small text in front of my camera far enaugh, to barely read it when zoomed in 10x. Then I took the image, opened in LR, and saw little bit better outcome. Downsized it to FullHD, as it should be downsampled live video stream, right? With FullHD res, I could not make out any of those small letters. Too low resoluiion. No magnification would help that grey mush.

Also, the display is lower reaolution type than FullHD. At that resolution, it would be very bad to zoom into anything.

Click to expand...

No - because you can't.

What you are looking at in the live-stream, can't be captured.

What is shown on the lcd until capturing is a low resolution (about 350 Kpixel - 3 screen-pixels pr. image-pixels) video stream - when you zoom, you zoom in on that. You can't capture that "image" for a compare. (What you looks at on the lcd, while capturing video, is still a low resolution video-stream - but what is being captured is a "full" resolution video.)

As soon as you capture - no matter if it is still or video, the camera captures in the resolution, that is set. When you afterwards looks at the captured image on the lcd-screen, the camera deals with a "full" resolution image.

BirgerH.

350Kpx? hohho hahaha hahaa. You got it really wrong now, I´m sure as hell. I will post the text or MFT test to show you how wrong you are.

crashpc · Apr 17, 2016

Right. You got me mad now. Are you happy? :-D :-D

Here I got my proof.

Here is the image of the paper in the center, where I have printed black lines besides each other. Kinda unscientific MTF test. These are getting thicker and further from each other, to see how high frequency/detail can the sensor pick.

I set the distance of the camera and the test so the finest lines are right before extinction (those are still seen as separate lines.

Here is what I got when viewed via LR:

Here is the detail with 2x magnification, to see that the pattern is right before extinction:

Now here is shot what my mobile phone sees on the rear camera LCD, using 10x magnification of the camera. See it full screen:

And here is just addition, 800x600 image made from the original one, where you can see, that even the most thick and spaced pattern is completely extinct, beyond recognition and possible detail revival:

You are wrong, my Canon does grab 1:1 sensor image, and crops the part of it to show me on the rear screen.

BirgerH · Apr 17, 2016

crashpc said:
BirgerH said:

crashpc said:

I really didn't. No reason for me to go fullblast "laboratory" measurements, although I know how I would do that. Shooting custom MTF chart, shooting high res image of the rear LCD, then measuring RGB values, comparing if LCD stream keeps up with black_white_black frequencies.

I just put some small text in front of my camera far enaugh, to barely read it when zoomed in 10x. Then I took the image, opened in LR, and saw little bit better outcome. Downsized it to FullHD, as it should be downsampled live video stream, right? With FullHD res, I could not make out any of those small letters. Too low resoluiion. No magnification would help that grey mush.

Also, the display is lower reaolution type than FullHD. At that resolution, it would be very bad to zoom into anything.

Click to expand...

No - because you can't.

What you are looking at in the live-stream, can't be captured.

What is shown on the lcd until capturing is a low resolution (about 350 Kpixel - 3 screen-pixels pr. image-pixels) video stream - when you zoom, you zoom in on that. You can't capture that "image" for a compare. (What you looks at on the lcd, while capturing video, is still a low resolution video-stream - but what is being captured is a "full" resolution video.)

As soon as you capture - no matter if it is still or video, the camera captures in the resolution, that is set. When you afterwards looks at the captured image on the lcd-screen, the camera deals with a "full" resolution image.

BirgerH.

Click to expand...

350Kpx? hohho hahaha hahaa. You got it really wrong now, I´m sure as hell. I will post the text or MFT test to show you how wrong you are.

I'm curious - how will you do that?

You can't save the output to the lcd? It's not the image captured and saved on the card, I'm speaking about - it's the image send to your lcd - that's the image you are using, when you zoom in to focus - that image is just processed into a low resolution video-format - and thrown away 1/60 or 1/30 of a second later.

BirgerH.

crashpc · Apr 17, 2016

I did doublepost, so please read the last response (except this one).

It clearly shows that I see more than manified original 1Mpx video stream to the LCD. It sees crop of the 1:1 image from the sensor.

BirgerH · Apr 17, 2016

crashpc said:
Right. You got me mad now. Are you happy? :-D :-D

Here I got my proof.

Here is the image of the paper in the center, where I have printed black lines besides each other. Kinda unscientific MTF test. These are getting thicker and further from each other, to see how high frequency/detail can the sensor pick.

I set the distance of the camera and the test so the finest lines are right before extinction (those are still seen as separate lines.

Here is what I got when viewed via LR:

Here is the detail with 2x magnification, to see that the pattern is right before extinction:

Now here is shot what my mobile phone sees on the rear camera LCD, using 10x magnification of the camera. See it full screen:

And here is just addition, 800x600 image made from the original one, where you can see, that even the most thick and spaced pattern is completely extinct, beyond recognition and possible detail revival:

You are wrong, my Canon does grab 1:1 sensor image, and crops the part of it to show me on the rear screen.

That's not, what I spoke about.

When you are in Live View - not capturing anything - but zooming in to focus (for a still-image) - the output made for your screen is a low resolution (about 774x516 pixel - 3 dots pr. pixel) video format. The camera does not process anything else, than that in that procedure (until you press the release-button - or the video record button.)

So when you zoom in to focus, still not recording or capturing anything - you are zooming in that processed image. You are zooming the output screen-image - that's the only image, that has been processed until now.

BirgerH.

crashpc · Apr 17, 2016

BirgerH said:
That's not, what I spoke about.

Okay, Now I´m a bit lost. I thought we´re talking this situation:

You pointed out that LiveView magnification is not much of help with focusing, because it doesn´t give me the "final image resolution", to see that the spot I´m interested in, is focused precisely.

I said it does. I see the cropped part of the image with full resolution of the sensor (well, processed by poorer engine).

BirgerH said:
When you are in Live View - not capturing anything - but zooming in to focus (for a still-image) - the output made for your screen is a low resolution (about 774x516 pixel - 3 dots pr. pixel)

video format.

Right. Might be. No problem with it.

BirgerH said:
The camera does not process anything else, than that in that procedure (until you press the release-button - or the video record button.)

Well, okay, whatever? I don´t see where are you going with it. Seeing it as redundant information.

BirgerH said:
So when you zoom in to focus, still not recording or capturing anything - you are zooming in that processed image. You are zooming the output screen-image - that's the only image, that has been processed until now.

Here if I understand well, you´re wrong.

You see I grabbed that screen shot made my mobile phone, and tha camera sees all the lines of that fine pattern on the paper in front of the camera. But you couldn´t see this detail from 774x516 px data, no matter how you zoom into it. The data is lost. I showed it in the last image. Only if the sensor is grabbed completely, then cropped, and the cropped image is sent to the display, only then it will see the detail, as it already does.

BirgerH said:
BirgerH.

BirgerH · Apr 17, 2016

crashpc said:
I did doublepost, so please read the last response (except this one).

It clearly shows that I see more than manified original 1Mpx video stream to the LCD. It sees crop of the 1:1 image from the sensor.

There is no image on the sensor to see - there is data, that has to be processed (software processing) into an image.

When just being in LiveView - the processor makes only the low resolution image to save processing time (to minimize the delay). When you zoom - the screen processor uses the fewer pixels in the zoomed area of the image - and enlarge the cropped image by interpolation (adding pixels, that is not captured by the sensor.)

In this state - you are not cropping the sensor's output to the processor - you are cropping the screen processor's output to the screen. That was my point.

Has nothing to do with, what happens, when you are capturing an image or recording a video. Then the lcd will still show you a crop from the image - but from a very much higher resolution image.

The zoom function has nothing to do with what's "on the sensor". It's a screen function.

BirgerH.

BirgerH · Apr 17, 2016

crashpc said:
BirgerH said:

That's not, what I spoke about.

Click to expand...

Okay, Now I´m a bit lost. I thought we´re talking this situation:

You pointed out that LiveView magnification is not much of help with focusing, because it doesn´t give me the "final image resolution", to see that the spot I´m interested in, is focused precisely.

I said it does. I see the cropped part of the image with full resolution of the sensor (well, processed by poorer engine).

crashpc said:

When you are in Live View - not capturing anything - but zooming in to focus (for a still-image) - the output made for your screen is a low resolution (about 774x516 pixel - 3 dots pr. pixel)

video format.

Click to expand...

Right. Might be. No problem with it.

crashpc said:

The camera does not process anything else, than that in that procedure (until you press the release-button - or the video record button.)

Click to expand...

Well, okay, whatever? I don´t see where are you going with it. Seeing it as redundant information.

crashpc said:

So when you zoom in to focus, still not recording or capturing anything - you are zooming in that processed image. You are zooming the output screen-image - that's the only image, that has been processed until now.

Click to expand...

Here if I understand well, you´re wrong.

You see I grabbed that screen shot made my mobile phone, and tha camera sees all the lines of that fine pattern on the paper in front of the camera. But you couldn´t see this detail from 774x516 px data, no matter how you zoom into it. The data is lost. I showed it in the last image.

Yes - they are - and that's how you will see the screen-image in LiveView. Only a low resolution image is processed from the sensor. When you zoom on that (and enlarge) - you will get even lower resolution.

crashpc said:
Only if the sensor is grabbed completely, then cropped, and the cropped image is sent to the display, only then it will see the detail, as it already does.

Yes - and then you have a captured high resolution image from which the processor makes the screen output, when you zoom too - that's what makes the difference.

You can try for yourself:

Make a jpg in high resolution (in LR) - 24 MP - and the same jpg in low resolution - 1.2MP.

Now do a crop (zoom in) on both at the same subject and see the final resolution, when enlarged to same viewing size.

That's what the camera does.

BirgerH.

crashpc · Apr 17, 2016

BirgerH said:
crashpc said:

I did doublepost, so please read the last response (except this one).

It clearly shows that I see more than manified original 1Mpx video stream to the LCD. It sees crop of the 1:1 image from the sensor.

Click to expand...

There is no image on the sensor to see - there is data, that has to be processed (software processing) into an image.

Nitpicking, but, whatever. OKAY.

BirgerH said:
When just being in LiveView - the processor makes only the low resolution image to save processing time (to minimize the delay). When you zoom - the screen processor uses the fewer pixels in the zoomed area of the image - and enlarge the cropped image by interpolation (adding pixels, that is not captured by the sensor.)

Here you´re simply wrong. Deal with it, learn something. We will not agree on that.

BirgerH said:
In this state - you are not cropping the sensor's output to the processor - you are cropping the screen processor's output to the screen. That was my point.

Good, I get it, I just cannot agree, because of law of physics and optics.

BirgerH said:
Has nothing to do with, what happens, when you are capturing an image or recording a video. Then the lcd will still show you a crop from the image - but from a very much higher resolution image.

The zoom function has nothing to do with what's "on the sensor". It's a screen function.

It is not.

BirgerH said:
BirgerH.

crashpc · Apr 17, 2016

BirgerH said:
crashpc said:

ing the output screen-image - that's the only image, that has been processed until now.

Here if I understand well, you´re wrong.

You see I grabbed that screen shot made my mobile phone, and tha camera sees all the lines of that fine pattern on the paper in front of the camera. But you couldn´t see this detail from 774x516 px data, no matter how you zoom into it. The data is lost. I showed it in the last image.

Click to expand...

Yes - they are - and that's how you will see the screen-image in LiveView. Only a low resolution image is processed from the sensor. When you zoom on that (and enlarge) - you will get even lower resolution.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. I cleraly showed you that you get FULL 1:1resolution.

The phone camera grabs the same resolution of the paper on the camera screen, as the final shot.

How else do you need to see it?

BirgerH said:
BirgerH said:

Only if the sensor is grabbed completely, then cropped, and the cropped image is sent to the display, only then it will see the detail, as it already does.

Click to expand...

Yes - and then you have a captured high resolution image from which the processor makes the screen output, when you zoom too - that's what makes the difference.

This contradicts what you posted earlier.

BirgerH said:
You can try for yourself:

Make a jpg in high resolution (in LR) - 24 MP - and the same jpg in low resolution - 1.2MP.

Now do a crop (zoom in) on both at the same subject and see the final resolution, when enlarged to same viewing size.

That's what the camera does.

Please, proceed step by step in detail with this. I´ll follow.

If I understand, I can just crop the 24Mpx image, while I will have to upsize the 1.2MP image. Right. The 1,2MP cropped and upsized part will not have the resolution of the original 24Mpx just cropped file. But that´s what the camera does. It does crop the full res image, because if I upsize with magnifying tool on the camera, I see the same detail as on the final 24Mpx photo crop.

Gosh.

BirgerH said:
BirgerH.

What's wrong with D610 test scene?

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