FF Lens on APS-C body - confusing

keiththom

Senior Member
Messages
1,655
Solutions
7
Reaction score
990
Location
USA
I'm shooting with a D7100 (until my D500 gets here). I switched from the 70-300 kit lens to a 80-400 "pro" lens. I loved the difference the 80-400 made.

So I'm listening to Tony Northrup's video, "20 things photographers get wrong," and Tony argues that since my "APS-C body only covers about 45% of the the lens, it is magnifying the defects in the lens by 200%" and I'm actually getting worse images than I would from the much cheaper kit lens.

Admittedly, I'm not photography tech savvy, but "in my mind, and to my eye," my pro lens shots look better than my kit lens shots.

Am I duping myself by buying good glass? Or should I strive for cheap glass for better images as Tony argues?
 
I'm shooting with a D7100 (until my D500 gets here). I switched from the 70-300 kit lens to a 80-400 "pro" lens. I loved the difference the 80-400 made.

So I'm listening to Tony Northrup's video, "20 things photographers get wrong," and Tony argues that since my "APS-C body only covers about 45% of the the lens, it is magnifying the defects in the lens by 200%" and I'm actually getting worse images than I would from the much cheaper kit lens.

Admittedly, I'm not photography tech savvy, but "in my mind, and to my eye," my pro lens shots look better than my kit lens shots.

Am I duping myself by buying good glass? Or should I strive for cheap glass for better images as Tony argues?
 
I'm shooting with a D7100 (until my D500 gets here). I switched from the 70-300 kit lens to a 80-400 "pro" lens. I loved the difference the 80-400 made.
i would no consider either a stellar lens. Compare it to a Nikon 70-200 F2.8 and you will see the difference.
So I'm listening to Tony Northrup's video, "20 things photographers get wrong," and Tony argues that since my "APS-C body only covers about 45% of the the lens, it is magnifying the defects in the lens by 200%" and I'm actually getting worse images than I would from the much cheaper kit lens.
i do not agree with him the DX uses the center part of the lens. Lenses are weaker in the corners.
Admittedly, I'm not photography tech savvy, but "in my mind, and to my eye," my pro lens shots look better than my kit lens shots.
The 80-400 may be better than the 70-300 as it should be considering it costs three times as much or more.
Am I duping myself by buying good glass? Or should I strive for cheap glass for better images as Tony argues?
No you are not. Buy the best lenses you can afford.
 
I'm shooting with a D7100 (until my D500 gets here). I switched from the 70-300 kit lens to a 80-400 "pro" lens. I loved the difference the 80-400 made.

So I'm listening to Tony Northrup's video, "20 things photographers get wrong," and Tony argues that since my "APS-C body only covers about 45% of the the lens, it is magnifying the defects in the lens by 200%" and I'm actually getting worse images than I would from the much cheaper kit lens.

Admittedly, I'm not photography tech savvy, but "in my mind, and to my eye," my pro lens shots look better than my kit lens shots.

Am I duping myself by buying good glass? Or should I strive for cheap glass for better images as Tony argues?
 
I'm shooting with a D7100 (until my D500 gets here). I switched from the 70-300 kit lens to a 80-400 "pro" lens. I loved the difference the 80-400 made.

So I'm listening to Tony Northrup's video, "20 things photographers get wrong," and Tony argues that since my "APS-C body only covers about 45% of the the lens, it is magnifying the defects in the lens by 200%" and I'm actually getting worse images than I would from the much cheaper kit lens.

Admittedly, I'm not photography tech savvy, but "in my mind, and to my eye," my pro lens shots look better than my kit lens shots.

Am I duping myself by buying good glass? Or should I strive for cheap glass for better images as Tony argues?
 
I'm shooting with a D7100 (until my D500 gets here). I switched from the 70-300 kit lens to a 80-400 "pro" lens. I loved the difference the 80-400 made.

So I'm listening to Tony Northrup's video, "20 things photographers get wrong," and Tony argues that since my "APS-C body only covers about 45% of the the lens, it is magnifying the defects in the lens by 200%" and I'm actually getting worse images than I would from the much cheaper kit lens.

Admittedly, I'm not photography tech savvy, but "in my mind, and to my eye," my pro lens shots look better than my kit lens shots.

Am I duping myself by buying good glass? Or should I strive for cheap glass for better images as Tony argues?
 
I'm shooting with a D7100 (until my D500 gets here). I switched from the 70-300 kit lens to a 80-400 "pro" lens. I loved the difference the 80-400 made.

So I'm listening to Tony Northrup's video, "20 things photographers get wrong," and Tony argues that since my "APS-C body only covers about 45% of the the lens, it is magnifying the defects in the lens by 200%" and I'm actually getting worse images than I would from the much cheaper kit lens.

Admittedly, I'm not photography tech savvy, but "in my mind, and to my eye," my pro lens shots look better than my kit lens shots.

Am I duping myself by buying good glass? Or should I strive for cheap glass for better images as Tony argues?
 
I'm shooting with a D7100 (until my D500 gets here). I switched from the 70-300 kit lens to a 80-400 "pro" lens. I loved the difference the 80-400 made.

So I'm listening to Tony Northrup's video, "20 things photographers get wrong," and Tony argues that since my "APS-C body only covers about 45% of the the lens, it is magnifying the defects in the lens by 200%" and I'm actually getting worse images than I would from the much cheaper kit lens.

Admittedly, I'm not photography tech savvy, but "in my mind, and to my eye," my pro lens shots look better than my kit lens shots.

Am I duping myself by buying good glass? Or should I strive for cheap glass for better images as Tony argues?
 
I'm shooting with a D7100 (until my D500 gets here). I switched from the 70-300 kit lens to a 80-400 "pro" lens. I loved the difference the 80-400 made.

So I'm listening to Tony Northrup's video, "20 things photographers get wrong," and Tony argues that since my "APS-C body only covers about 45% of the the lens, it is magnifying the defects in the lens by 200%" and I'm actually getting worse images than I would from the much cheaper kit lens.

Admittedly, I'm not photography tech savvy, but "in my mind, and to my eye," my pro lens shots look better than my kit lens shots.

Am I duping myself by buying good glass? Or should I strive for cheap glass for better images as Tony argues?
 
I'm shooting with a D7100 (until my D500 gets here). I switched from the 70-300 kit lens to a 80-400 "pro" lens. I loved the difference the 80-400 made.

So I'm listening to Tony Northrup's video, "20 things photographers get wrong," and Tony argues that since my "APS-C body only covers about 45% of the the lens, it is magnifying the defects in the lens by 200%" and I'm actually getting worse images than I would from the much cheaper kit lens.

Admittedly, I'm not photography tech savvy, but "in my mind, and to my eye," my pro lens shots look better than my kit lens shots.

Am I duping myself by buying good glass? Or should I strive for cheap glass for better images as Tony argues?

--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/107641481@N02/
Don't waste time listening to him, he is just entertainment.

The same subject came up a few weeks back, and Tony Northrup participated. You can read the whole thread here:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3968507

JC
Some cameras, some lenses, some computers
Sorry - I should have just went to that thread and waded through it all. No sense in starting it up again. And I certainly don't wish to knock anyone down. I'm sure Tony and most guys here are more tech savvy than I am.

--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/107641481@N02/
Tony is more tech savvy than anybody in this thread. Armchair experts. Face palm.
Are you counting yourself?

--
Laslo
http://www.digitalexpressionsphotography.com
Yes Tony is much more tech savvy than me. And I certainly don't go around calling him "just entertainment". He has a very technical background.
That's fair enough. I don't know his technical background, you apparently researched it. So I wonder how he can justify that people are better off using cheap glass as the OP stated. I have used cheap glass and pro quality glass and I can see the difference. My conclusion is based on thousands of photos, no technical background is needed fo that though I have to admit I have one. Perhaps he did not communicate it properly to the OP?

--
Laslo
http://www.digitalexpressionsphotography.com
 
Last edited:
I'm shooting with a D7100 (until my D500 gets here). I switched from the 70-300 kit lens to a 80-400 "pro" lens. I loved the difference the 80-400 made.

So I'm listening to Tony Northrup's video, "20 things photographers get wrong," and Tony argues that since my "APS-C body only covers about 45% of the the lens, it is magnifying the defects in the lens by 200%" and I'm actually getting worse images than I would from the much cheaper kit lens.

Admittedly, I'm not photography tech savvy, but "in my mind, and to my eye," my pro lens shots look better than my kit lens shots.

Am I duping myself by buying good glass? Or should I strive for cheap glass for better images as Tony argues?
 
The fallacy with that argument is that all lenses have optical imperfections. DX lenses are no more perfect than FX lenses, so they hold no advantage when used on DX cameras, other than perhaps having more useful zoom ranges. Any loss of quality with an FX lens on a DX body is compared to using that lens on an FX body, which is moot if you're using a DX body.

Danny W.
 
Last edited:
Sure he is, and we're waiting for you to cite his advanced degree in physics or engineering as proof of this claim, or your advanced degrees - to confirm your judgement in the matter - in the absence of his. Argument from authority is what made the Soviet Union great.

--
Jim
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I'm shooting with a D7100 (until my D500 gets here). I switched from the 70-300 kit lens to a 80-400 "pro" lens. I loved the difference the 80-400 made.

So I'm listening to Tony Northrup's video, "20 things photographers get wrong," and Tony argues that since my "APS-C body only covers about 45% of the the lens, it is magnifying the defects in the lens by 200%" and I'm actually getting worse images than I would from the much cheaper kit lens.
Technically, at least part of what he says about DX users only using a portion of FF glass and thus magnifying the lens defects is correct. I don't know if his math concerning the 200% is correct and don't really care. I don't think that any pro or high dollar lenses that has significant defects in the center of the lens elements, would make it through quality control.
Admittedly, I'm not photography tech savvy, but "in my mind, and to my eye," my pro lens shots look better than my kit lens shots.

Am I duping myself by buying good glass? Or should I strive for cheap glass for better images as Tony argues?
So, he is making a claim that doesn't fit your experiences, right? It doesn't fit the experiences of most others either, so I would suggest that you ignore that bit of advice and not worry about it. The vast majority of Nikon DX users that want the best photos that they can produce, buy the best glass available. It's just nonsense that Nikon's best lenses aren't any good on a DX camera.

Kerry
 
I'm shooting with a D7100 (until my D500 gets here). I switched from the 70-300 kit lens to a 80-400 "pro" lens. I loved the difference the 80-400 made.

So I'm listening to Tony Northrup's video, "20 things photographers get wrong," and Tony argues that since my "APS-C body only covers about 45% of the the lens, it is magnifying the defects in the lens by 200%" and I'm actually getting worse images than I would from the much cheaper kit lens.

Admittedly, I'm not photography tech savvy, but "in my mind, and to my eye," my pro lens shots look better than my kit lens shots.

Am I duping myself by buying good glass? Or should I strive for cheap glass for better images as Tony argues?
 
Last edited:
I'm shooting with a D7100 (until my D500 gets here). I switched from the 70-300 kit lens to a 80-400 "pro" lens. I loved the difference the 80-400 made.

So I'm listening to Tony Northrup's video, "20 things photographers get wrong," and Tony argues that since my "APS-C body only covers about 45% of the the lens, it is magnifying the defects in the lens by 200%" and I'm actually getting worse images than I would from the much cheaper kit lens.

Admittedly, I'm not photography tech savvy, but "in my mind, and to my eye," my pro lens shots look better than my kit lens shots.

Am I duping myself by buying good glass? Or should I strive for cheap glass for better images as Tony argues?

--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/107641481@N02/
Don't waste time listening to him, he is just entertainment.

The same subject came up a few weeks back, and Tony Northrup participated. You can read the whole thread here:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3968507

JC
Some cameras, some lenses, some computers
Sorry - I should have just went to that thread and waded through it all. No sense in starting it up again. And I certainly don't wish to knock anyone down. I'm sure Tony and most guys here are more tech savvy than I am.

--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/107641481@N02/
Tony is more tech savvy than anybody in this thread. Armchair experts. Face palm.
Rather than resorting to personal insults, which needs to stop, why didn't you explain the problem?

I just went to view the appropriate portion of Tony's video, #10 (at about 18:40 in the video) which he describes as one of the most controversial of his findings. Well, I can certainly understand why it is controversial. My experiences with DX sensors and pro class FF lenses simply doesn't jive with his claims. Like most people, I have found that using pro glass on my DX bodies gives me better images than I can get from cheaper glass.

Now, Tony may be more tech savvy than a lot of people, including me, but I know what I have seen for the last decade and that doesn't jive with his claim about using pro lenses on DX bodies.

Kerry

--
When is it "Okay" to be mean, petty or unethical?
-
my gallery of so-so photos
http://www.pbase.com/kerrypierce/root
 
Last edited:
I'm shooting with a D7100 (until my D500 gets here). I switched from the 70-300 kit lens to a 80-400 "pro" lens. I loved the difference the 80-400 made.

So I'm listening to Tony Northrup's video, "20 things photographers get wrong," and Tony argues that since my "APS-C body only covers about 45% of the the lens, it is magnifying the defects in the lens by 200%" and I'm actually getting worse images than I would from the much cheaper kit lens.
Technically, at least part of what he says about DX users only using a portion of FF glass and thus magnifying the lens defects is correct. I don't know if his math concerning the 200% is correct and don't really care. I don't think that any pro or high dollar lenses that has significant defects in the center of the lens elements, would make it through quality control.
Admittedly, I'm not photography tech savvy, but "in my mind, and to my eye," my pro lens shots look better than my kit lens shots.

Am I duping myself by buying good glass? Or should I strive for cheap glass for better images as Tony argues?
So, he is making a claim that doesn't fit your experiences, right? It doesn't fit the experiences of most others either, so I would suggest that you ignore that bit of advice and not worry about it. The vast majority of Nikon DX users that want the best photos that they can produce, buy the best glass available. It's just nonsense that Nikon's best lenses aren't any good on a DX camera.
This canard has gone viral in the worst way. Falls under the category: A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing.
 
Technically, at least part of what he says about DX users only using a portion of FF glass and thus magnifying the lens defects is correct. I don't know if his math concerning the 200% is correct and don't really care. I don't think that any pro or high dollar lenses that has significant defects in the center of the lens elements, would make it through quality control.
This would be true if the defects in FX glass were somehow more spread out than in DX glass, but they are not. In addition, there is likely to be much less falloff and other edge & corner defects with an FX lens on a DX camera. I hate to invoke DXOMark, but if you look at all Nikon zooms on a DX cameras, the top scorers are all FX lenses.

Danny W.
 
Keith,

You're not duping yourself. If the images you're getting with the 80-400 look better than the images you were getting with the 70-300, then they are better. Better, is a subjective evaluation and, since they're your photos, you get to make the evaluation.

Here's where Tony is getting the numbers he mentions:
  • APS-C Coverage: The 35.9mm width of a full frame Nikon FX sensor is 1.53x the width of a 23.5mm Nikon DX (APS-C) format sensor. Another way of describing this is to say the DX format sensor is 65% as wide as an FX sensor. If we square that number, we get the comparative area of the DX sensor: .65^2 = .4225 or a skosh more than 42%. The DX format sensor covers 42% the surface area of an FX sensor.
  • Image Magnification: The smaller size of the DX sensor captures images having a more narrow angle of view than would be captured by an FX sensor. That narrower angle of view has the effect of making the subject appear larger within the frame. The 1.53x crop factor tells us that the subject will appear 153% as large in one dimension (width or height) as in an image made with the same lens on an FX body. To determine the difference in total surface area covered by the subject within the frame, square the crop factor to get a result of 234%.
  • If the subject appears larger so do any aberrations or defects within the image.
I am skeptical of Tony's implied message that lenses designed for use on full frame bodies suffer some special form of image degradation when used on a crop sensor body that is not inflicted upon a lens designed for use only on crop sensor bodies. The reason I'm skeptical is that the optical quality of a lens is independent of sensor size. A Sigma Art lens or a Zeiss Otus is no less excellent when it is mounted to a crop sensor body.

Pixel size plays a role in perceived resolution. A 70mm, f/2.8 lens has a clear aperture of 25mm and a theoretical resolution limit of about 4.6 arcseconds. A D610 pixel with a pitch of about 6 microns will cover an area about 17.5 arcseconds in diameter and be nearly 4x larger than the smallest detail the 70mm, f/2.8 is capable of resolving. A D7100 pixel with its pitch of about 3.9 microns will cover an area 7.7 arcseconds across and be about 2.5x larger than the smallest resolved detail.

As optical aberrations and other factors conspire to force the lens to perform somewhere below its theoretically perfect potential - no lens is perfect - the smallest resolved details in images made with either body will actually be larger than the 70mm, f/2.8's theoretical capability. But as long as that image degradation doesn't crush resolution too severely, the pixels in the D610 and D7100 sensors will still be larger than the smallest resolved detail. At least, that's my take on the issue.

Of course, I could be totally wrong, which is why I say I'm skeptical...but not certain.

In my own testing and comparison of FX vs DX camera performance, I've consistently used lenses designed for use on full frame sensors. These include three Nikkor and two Tamron lenses. On many occasions, I've gone back and forth between FX and DX bodies with those lenses, often over a span of just a few minutes. In other words, variables and conditions were essentially identical. This includes the subject, distance, lighting, focal length, aperture, etc. To be sure, five lenses is not a large sample size. That acknowledged, other than the cropping of the angle of view by the DX body, I've not noticed any image degradation that I would describe as obvious in comparison to images made just moments before using the same lenses on an FX body.

The D500, with fewer but larger pixels than the D7100, is likely to fare even better. Personally, I wouldn't be too concerned.
I'm shooting with a D7100 (until my D500 gets here). I switched from the 70-300 kit lens to a 80-400 "pro" lens. I loved the difference the 80-400 made.

So I'm listening to Tony Northrup's video, "20 things photographers get wrong," and Tony argues that since my "APS-C body only covers about 45% of the the lens, it is magnifying the defects in the lens by 200%" and I'm actually getting worse images than I would from the much cheaper kit lens.

Admittedly, I'm not photography tech savvy, but "in my mind, and to my eye," my pro lens shots look better than my kit lens shots.

Am I duping myself by buying good glass? Or should I strive for cheap glass for better images as Tony argues?

--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/107641481@N02/
--
Bill Ferris Photography
Flagstaff, AZ
http://www.billferris.photoshelter.com
 
Last edited:

Keyboard shortcuts

Back
Top