DiMAGE A1 (the D7 replacement)

True, you will need two decent lenses, but OTOH, the image quality is much better.

I think the A1 will have some problems if it sells for more than $1200 street price US. Anyway, in 9 mos. it'll be at the same price as the 7Hi. Maybe I'll have a look at it then.
Marko, you've missed my point completely.
The next price range, is the Canon EOS 10D SLR at $1329 (excluding
lens).
Right, excluding the lens. You'll need more than a cheap, consumer
grade lens in order to beat the lens of A1. In fact, IMHO, most
digicams beat the cheap kit lenses (35-80/4-5.6 etc.), no matter
what the manufacturer is. I had Tamron 24-70/3.3-5.6 and it was
worse than Canon G1.

http://www3.pbase.com/jkurkjia/10d_vs_7i_resolution

Additionally, you'll need at least two lenses in order to get the
same range (28-200) and an extender tube for macro photography.
You'll also need a much sturdier (=heavier) tripod due to the
mirror slap. Macro photography won't be possible without a tripod.
So you tell me what the A1 is going to compete against and whether
it is priced right.
Well, of course it's going to compete against the F7000, new Sony
(828?), Nikons (5700 and 5400), Olympus E-20 and even the 10D and
D100.

The price might seem high, but it's the only camera that offers
both a reasonable wide-angle (28 mm) and reasonable tele (200 mm)
in one, small package. Nikon 5400 comes close, but it lacks TTL
viewfinder and manual zoom. The SLRs need at least two lenses in
order to achieve the same range. I don't care about the size and
weigh of the camera (in fact, larger cameras are usually easier to
operate), but the size and weight of the camera bag is a big issue
to me.

If one does not need manual zoom or 28 mm wide-angle, then Fuji's
price is unbeatable.
Show me one digital camera (not video) that records sound -and- can
zoom while recording.
Dimage 7i and 7Hi. That's just one of the many benefits of manual
zoom control. However, focusing (AF or manual) is not possible if
the camera is also recording audio.
Other sources quote 3.3fps
There seem to be two continuous modes:
3.3 fps, first 5 frames
2 fps, last 5 frames

According to the Dpreview's review, the 7Hi can shoot up to 9
frames @ 5 fps. Personally I think the quoted speed is too
optimistic (measurement error?), the actual frame rate seems to
vary depending on the subject (file size) etc.)

Marko
 
I'm betting that it will have body I.S., and if so, this will be an incredible acheivement, and perhaps give Minolta a durable competitive advantage. Body I.S. requires a processor that has a pattern recognition algorithm and is then able to reposition the image as it moves around on the chip. The chip must therefore be consiiderably larger than it's stated effective resolution--an 8MP could easily be required to yield an effective 5MP image if I.S. is enabled. If I.S. is not enabled, then the full chip could be used to produce the stored image. Body I.S. is as significant as A.F. was!

Mike - 5&7 and too many lenses 16-300
Well, this is looking like a real product now and I have to say I'm
extremely disappointed that this is a 5MP sensor.

If it is indeed a new 5MP sensor then it had better be ultra low
noise. and high dynamic range, otherwise this camera isn't,
photographically, going to be any advance at all.

If, bizarrely, it uses the new 1/1.8" 5MP sensor (instead of the
2/3 sensor), Minolta will have had to re-engineer the lens (perhaps
at the same time adding the image stabilisation) to retain the
28-200 focal length.

The lens in the little picture featured in this thread looks the
same as the D7x, so I suspect this is not a 1/1.8" 5MP sensor.

Jawed
 
I am not saying that the S7000 is a better camera. I am saying
that they will end up competing against each other and the S7000
will enjuy a big price advantage ($799 MSRP).

Consider other 5+MP cameras and their prices at buydig.com, if
possible (not affiliated but heard that they are reputable):
That's like saying the Nikon F4 shouldn't be a viable camera because a $200 Canon Rebel shoots the same film and uses similar lenses. For some people, features other than image quality are important (IS, frame rate, lens coverage) - that's why Nikon thinks they can sell a 4MP DSLR for more than a Canon 10d. The A1 may not sell as many units if it's "high end" ... so what ?

The A1 will be at a disadvantage due to price among buyers looking for a cheap 5+MP camera. It will have an advantage among buyers looking for more features & performance.

p.s. The 8MP thing is just nuts - it's a smaller sensor - I'f rather have a lower res bigger sensor - that's why I'm disappointed that Minolta is doing all this with the same ol' presumably noisy small sensor.
  • Dennis
 
That would be nice but I doubt it somehow.

Minolta use off the shelf electronics. Its almost certainly a 2/3 5MP sensor. This would allow them to keep the lens architecture the same as before and just add a stabilising element.

I suspect they have improved a lot on the firmware possibly with some help from the Konica guys who did such a cracking job on the KD500 and KD510. There is a real possibility that the performance can be significantly improved over the D7i, since the D7i was noted for its lack of in camera "tampering". Whether it turns out that way or not remains to be seen.

What I would have liked most was an auto-distortion correction feature!!

Steve
Mike - 5&7 and too many lenses 16-300
Well, this is looking like a real product now and I have to say I'm
extremely disappointed that this is a 5MP sensor.

If it is indeed a new 5MP sensor then it had better be ultra low
noise. and high dynamic range, otherwise this camera isn't,
photographically, going to be any advance at all.

If, bizarrely, it uses the new 1/1.8" 5MP sensor (instead of the
2/3 sensor), Minolta will have had to re-engineer the lens (perhaps
at the same time adding the image stabilisation) to retain the
28-200 focal length.

The lens in the little picture featured in this thread looks the
same as the D7x, so I suspect this is not a 1/1.8" 5MP sensor.

Jawed
 
Check out this review of Canon lenses on a 10D:

http://www.photo.net/equipment/canon/28zooms/index.html

Admitedly, these won't get you to an effective 28mm, but it's not as bad as you make out.
Marko, you've missed my point completely.
The next price range, is the Canon EOS 10D SLR at $1329 (excluding
lens).
Right, excluding the lens. You'll need more than a cheap, consumer
grade lens in order to beat the lens of A1. In fact, IMHO, most
digicams beat the cheap kit lenses (35-80/4-5.6 etc.), no matter
what the manufacturer is. I had Tamron 24-70/3.3-5.6 and it was
worse than Canon G1.
 
That would be nice but I doubt it somehow.

Minolta use off the shelf electronics. Its almost certainly a 2/3
5MP sensor. This would allow them to keep the lens architecture the
same as before and just add a stabilising element.

I suspect they have improved a lot on the firmware possibly with
some help from the Konica guys who did such a cracking job on the
KD500 and KD510. There is a real possibility that the performance
can be significantly improved over the D7i, since the D7i was noted
for its lack of in camera "tampering". Whether it turns out that
way or not remains to be seen.
Considering the merger between Minolta and Konica does not happen until this month ( I don't know the exact date in Aug., just that it's in Aug.) I wouldn't count on any "Konica technology" in this new model unless they can do it very quickly between the merger date and the release of the camera. Until the actual merger date they are still competing companies no matter that there is going to be a merger. Also, my understanding is that the first changes we will probably see will be in the business products divisions of the companies. Those divisions in each company are larger and more profitable that the camera divisions therefore any consolidating and sharing will most likely happen there first. Asking for Konica features and/or technology in Minolta cameras this early is not going to happen. Maybe the next generation will but i'd guess not in the new A1 if they expect it to ship in Sept or Oct.
What I would have liked most was an auto-distortion correction
feature!!

Steve
Mike - 5&7 and too many lenses 16-300
Well, this is looking like a real product now and I have to say I'm
extremely disappointed that this is a 5MP sensor.

If it is indeed a new 5MP sensor then it had better be ultra low
noise. and high dynamic range, otherwise this camera isn't,
photographically, going to be any advance at all.

If, bizarrely, it uses the new 1/1.8" 5MP sensor (instead of the
2/3 sensor), Minolta will have had to re-engineer the lens (perhaps
at the same time adding the image stabilisation) to retain the
28-200 focal length.

The lens in the little picture featured in this thread looks the
same as the D7x, so I suspect this is not a 1/1.8" 5MP sensor.

Jawed
 
Graeme

I only was expressing my preference. Your (and others) choices for size would be your preference. :-)

It is often expressed by various reviewers how a mfr. was able to put the same features into a more compact size. That 'improvement' in the advance of photography only demonstrates that we 'can' do it, and I just don't believe that it's best. Check out the size of the diopter adjustment wheel on the D7. If it were larger, I could use it more redily but it wouldn't be a hindrance for folks with smaller hands?

Carmakers have much smaller cars than years ago, but they aren't for everyone. That's all I was saying....

Gene
--
JusGene
 
From a marketing perspective Minolta might have gained more
from putting the power regulator near the CCD rather than in
the handgrip. Few complaints about heat.

The heat is a result of power dissipated by the regulator but that
is usually more affected by current rather than voltage. Going for
a higher voltage Li-ion supply would increase the voltage and
reduce the current and likely reduce the heat. That combined with
any improvement in the power drawn by the electronics would
give Minolta more options as to where to place the regulator.

--
---------------
Andrew.
--Thanks for the tech side...
JusGene
 
Even if Konica didn't have a hand in the image processing, I think Minolta has improved a lot in this regard with more recent cameras. I was just looking at Imaging Resource's new review of the 414 (very positive btw), and that camera has substantially less noise than the D7xx. Same goes for the f200/300.
Minolta use off the shelf electronics. Its almost certainly a 2/3
5MP sensor. This would allow them to keep the lens architecture the
same as before and just add a stabilising element.

I suspect they have improved a lot on the firmware possibly with
some help from the Konica guys who did such a cracking job on the
KD500 and KD510. There is a real possibility that the performance
can be significantly improved over the D7i, since the D7i was noted
for its lack of in camera "tampering". Whether it turns out that
way or not remains to be seen.

What I would have liked most was an auto-distortion correction
feature!!

Steve
Mike - 5&7 and too many lenses 16-300
Well, this is looking like a real product now and I have to say I'm
extremely disappointed that this is a 5MP sensor.

If it is indeed a new 5MP sensor then it had better be ultra low
noise. and high dynamic range, otherwise this camera isn't,
photographically, going to be any advance at all.

If, bizarrely, it uses the new 1/1.8" 5MP sensor (instead of the
2/3 sensor), Minolta will have had to re-engineer the lens (perhaps
at the same time adding the image stabilisation) to retain the
28-200 focal length.

The lens in the little picture featured in this thread looks the
same as the D7x, so I suspect this is not a 1/1.8" 5MP sensor.

Jawed
 
Steve,

There is a different business climate in Japan and a specific 'family' culture within their business model. Many companies with or without merger plans have varieties of technology sharing relationships.

Japan is a significant origin of technological production and the exchange of product/information is substantial, most notably within their family groups.

This said, I don't believe that I could know whether or how much sharing has taken place between the two. :-)

Gene
steve jacob wrote:

Considering the merger between Minolta and Konica does not happen
until this month ( I don't know the exact date in Aug., just that
it's in Aug.) I wouldn't count on any "Konica technology" in this
new model unless they can do it very quickly between the merger
date and the release of the camera. Until the actual merger date
they are still competing companies no matter that there is going to
be a merger. Also, my understanding is that the first changes we
will probably see will be in the business products divisions of the
companies. Those divisions in each company are larger and more
profitable that the camera divisions therefore any consolidating
and sharing will most likely happen there first. Asking for Konica
features and/or technology in Minolta cameras this early is not
going to happen. Maybe the next generation will but i'd guess not
in the new A1 if they expect it to ship in Sept or Oct.
--
JusGene
 
I read somewhere that Konica and Minolta have in fact had a working relationship going on in areas of mutual interest for sometime. Can't remember where I read it though.
Barry
There is a different business climate in Japan and a specific
'family' culture within their business model. Many companies with
or without merger plans have varieties of technology sharing
relationships.

Japan is a significant origin of technological production and the
exchange of product/information is substantial, most notably within
their family groups.

This said, I don't believe that I could know whether or how much
sharing has taken place between the two. :-)

Gene
steve jacob wrote:

Considering the merger between Minolta and Konica does not happen
until this month ( I don't know the exact date in Aug., just that
it's in Aug.) I wouldn't count on any "Konica technology" in this
new model unless they can do it very quickly between the merger
date and the release of the camera. Until the actual merger date
they are still competing companies no matter that there is going to
be a merger. Also, my understanding is that the first changes we
will probably see will be in the business products divisions of the
companies. Those divisions in each company are larger and more
profitable that the camera divisions therefore any consolidating
and sharing will most likely happen there first. Asking for Konica
features and/or technology in Minolta cameras this early is not
going to happen. Maybe the next generation will but i'd guess not
in the new A1 if they expect it to ship in Sept or Oct.
--
JusGene
 
Maybe because sales were down. Lucky for them Konica bailed them out or at least extended their life.

They aren't going to grap a bigger market share by almost doubling the cost of their newest top digicam(A1) over their nearest competitor now are they?
If you compare the D7Hi, the D7i and the Fuji S602z you'll come to
one indisputable conclusion: a lot of people have bought the
Minoltas in preference to the Fuji.
Got any figures showing how many people bought the Minolta?

Who cares why. The Minoltas
cost (and have always cost) more than the Fuji.
Doesn't mean they are better cameras or that they sell more of em.Only that historically they cost more. Nikon has the same reputation but Canon seems to be walking away from them in sales.

There have been
protracted periods when the 7i and the 7Hi have been hard to buy,
because demand has been so high.
Probably cause their production line/shipping isn't too efficient. Who knows?
Whether they are direct competitors is debatable. Whether cost is
so important is also debatable. The Fuji can't shoot at 28mm focal
length, for one thing, without some kind of adaptor. An awful lot
of people are forced, for that one good reason, to consider that
the Fuji is not a competitor to the Minolta.
For $100.00 the Fuji has a WA adapter . No problemo.
Pity, really, because the Fuji's a fairly decent camera otherwise,
a big improvement over it's predecessor.

Oh, by the way, in Video Recording mode the D7i/Hi can zoom while
recording, including sound. Cräp video quality, but there it is, a
still camera that does what you seem to think can't be done.

2 years after the D7 came out there is still no camera that
seriously competes, if you want a 28mm wide end and lots of zoom.
That plus manual zoom and exposure preview are key selling points
of the D7 series. Some people, having experienced those features,
find that there is no other camera to compete.
Thats your opinion. It's a good camera but many people shyed away from the Minolta because of the heat/ battery problems and the excessive noise, plastic feel, and being overpriced. Now it seems their very existance could be in doubt.

Phil's reviews clearly shows it to have the least resolution and the most noise. So you statement that the D7 is best is flawed at best. My opinion is that the Sony 717 beats the heck out of it. Keep in mind the sensor in the D7 is made by Sony. Minolta contributes to Sony's profit line with each one they sell. Maybe thats why the Minolta is priced higher.
It would be lovely if the A1 only cost $700 but it aint gonna
happen soon.
If it's substantially more than the compettiton , Minolta won't sell many. The competition is getting tougher each year.
 
An electronic video image stabilizer like in video cams would not work in digicams; its principle is to adjust the consecutive images of a video film, but it cannot compensate the shaking blur of an individual image. With video, blur is not an issue, with digicams its the issue.

One idea of a body image stabilizer for a digicam would be a horizontally and vertically moving sensor, which is driven by very fast piezo elements. The sensor would follow the moves (resulting from camera shake) of the projected picture object, thus the picture would stay stable on the sensor, and there would be no blur on the recorded picture.

Let's see!
I'm betting that it will have body I.S., and if so, this will be an
incredible acheivement, and perhaps give Minolta a durable
competitive advantage. Body I.S. requires a processor that has a
pattern recognition algorithm and is then able to reposition the
image as it moves around on the chip. The chip must therefore be
consiiderably larger than it's stated effective resolution--an 8MP
could easily be required to yield an effective 5MP image if I.S. is
enabled. If I.S. is not enabled, then the full chip could be used
to produce the stored image. Body I.S. is as significant as A.F.
was!
 
You might be close

Please donot hold me to this but I talked to a guy from the local camera shop who had also been at the show so we ended up talking about the A1, he told me that the IS is done by using the CCD's not the lens ?? but could not explain any more. So if you can work out how, then it will be intresting to hear. Just remember this is only hearsay and I cannot vouch for the accuracy of his statement ..
I'm betting that it will have body I.S., and if so, this will be an
incredible acheivement, and perhaps give Minolta a durable
competitive advantage. Body I.S. requires a processor that has a
pattern recognition algorithm and is then able to reposition the
image as it moves around on the chip. The chip must therefore be
consiiderably larger than it's stated effective resolution--an 8MP
could easily be required to yield an effective 5MP image if I.S. is
enabled. If I.S. is not enabled, then the full chip could be used
to produce the stored image. Body I.S. is as significant as A.F.
was!
dynacam
(Graeme Knox)
http://www.k-island.com
 
The 404 was also good for noise - 4MP sensors were never that bad.
Minolta use off the shelf electronics. Its almost certainly a 2/3
5MP sensor. This would allow them to keep the lens architecture the
same as before and just add a stabilising element.

I suspect they have improved a lot on the firmware possibly with
some help from the Konica guys who did such a cracking job on the
KD500 and KD510. There is a real possibility that the performance
can be significantly improved over the D7i, since the D7i was noted
for its lack of in camera "tampering". Whether it turns out that
way or not remains to be seen.

What I would have liked most was an auto-distortion correction
feature!!

Steve
Mike - 5&7 and too many lenses 16-300
Well, this is looking like a real product now and I have to say I'm
extremely disappointed that this is a 5MP sensor.

If it is indeed a new 5MP sensor then it had better be ultra low
noise. and high dynamic range, otherwise this camera isn't,
photographically, going to be any advance at all.

If, bizarrely, it uses the new 1/1.8" 5MP sensor (instead of the
2/3 sensor), Minolta will have had to re-engineer the lens (perhaps
at the same time adding the image stabilisation) to retain the
28-200 focal length.

The lens in the little picture featured in this thread looks the
same as the D7x, so I suspect this is not a 1/1.8" 5MP sensor.

Jawed
 
Thats your opinion. It's a good camera but many people shyed away
from the Minolta because of the heat/ battery problems and the
excessive noise, plastic feel, and being overpriced. Now it seems
their very existance could be in doubt.
Phil's reviews clearly shows it to have the least resolution and
the most noise. So you statement that the D7 is best is flawed at
best. My opinion is that the Sony 717 beats the heck out of it.
Keep in mind the sensor in the D7 is made by Sony. Minolta
contributes to Sony's profit line with each one they sell. Maybe
thats why the Minolta is priced higher.
The thing about opinions and something else is--everyone's got 'em. My opinion is that the 7Hi is the best prosumer digicam currently available, and the A1 will be when it's released. Noise and absolute resolution don't tell the whole tale, and in fact there's not much difference between the D7Hi and the Sony in that regard. In such case other factors play a more important role, such as chromatic aberration, distortion, color management, dynamic range, image processing (or overprocessing), focal range, photographic controls and ergonomics, etc. The D7xx wins each and every one of these categories--again IMO. And using a WA adapter is in no way as satisfactory as having a built-in WA, which has better image quality and doesn't require you to carry around a big chunk of glass. Not that the 717 is a bad camera--I actually like it. It's just not as good.

Regarding the Fuji, it will only be strong competition if the images don't suck as thoroughly as they do in the posted s5000 sample gallery or in current Fuji digicams. I wouldn't put money on it.
 
John, I put my money where my mouth is. Maybe you did the same and bought the Sony or the Fuji, I really don't care.

I'm not arguing the D7 is the best camera, you idiot, I'm arguing that for some people it's the camera that's most preferable. Regardless of "competing" models at less cost.

Blimey this thread is full of nitwits who can't understand simple English.
If you compare the D7Hi, the D7i and the Fuji S602z you'll come to
one indisputable conclusion: a lot of people have bought the
Minoltas in preference to the Fuji.
Got any figures showing how many people bought the Minolta?
Just what do figures prove? I'm talking about preferences for a subset of features. Can't you read? How many people have posted that they've bought the 7i and the 7Hi, in this forum, since the 602 came out? You can count em if you like. Do you think none of them even noticed the 602? Are you thick or what?
Who cares why. The Minoltas
cost (and have always cost) more than the Fuji.
Doesn't mean they are better cameras or that they sell more of
em.Only that historically they cost more. Nikon has the same
reputation but Canon seems to be walking away from them in sales.
You still can't read, can you? The Minoltas, despite costing more than the Fuji still sell. We're not talking quantity, we're talking about whether a product has features that make it preferable.
There have been
protracted periods when the 7i and the 7Hi have been hard to buy,
because demand has been so high.
Probably cause their production line/shipping isn't too efficient.
Who knows?
And still these idiot photographers don't choose the superior 602 and 717. Why do you think that is? Why do people wait weeks, sometimes, to get their hands on their preferred camera?
Whether they are direct competitors is debatable. Whether cost is
so important is also debatable. The Fuji can't shoot at 28mm focal
length, for one thing, without some kind of adaptor. An awful lot
of people are forced, for that one good reason, to consider that
the Fuji is not a competitor to the Minolta.
For $100.00 the Fuji has a WA adapter . No problemo.
Yeah, right, no problemo. I have a friend with the previous Fuji and WA adaptor. It's more trouble than it's worth to use, cos the camera's zoom range isn't available. He doesn't use it, that's how practical it is.
Pity, really, because the Fuji's a fairly decent camera otherwise,
a big improvement over it's predecessor.

Oh, by the way, in Video Recording mode the D7i/Hi can zoom while
recording, including sound. Cräp video quality, but there it is, a
still camera that does what you seem to think can't be done.

2 years after the D7 came out there is still no camera that
seriously competes, if you want a 28mm wide end and lots of zoom.
That plus manual zoom and exposure preview are key selling points
of the D7 series. Some people, having experienced those features,
find that there is no other camera to compete.
Thats your opinion.
There's a whole pile of people with that opinion on this forum. Which rock did you crawl out from? Just because you chose the Fuji (or whatever) over the Minolta, so, erm, nobody should choose the Minolta is that it?
It's a good camera but many people shyed away
from the Minolta because of the heat/ battery problems and the
excessive noise, plastic feel, and being overpriced. Now it seems
their very existance could be in doubt.
Phil's reviews clearly shows it to have the least resolution and
the most noise.
Despite having the least resolution and the worst noise, it produces the pix I prefer. Dammit, I'm not the only one with that preference, but in your brain cell that concept doesn't exist, does it?

I don't want Sony colour, or Fuji mush in my pictures. Have you noticed the raves over the non-Sony colour with the DSC-V1 - that might be because people are sick of Sony colour.
So you statement that the D7 is best is flawed at
best. My opinion is that the Sony 717 beats the heck out of it.
Yeah, like a program mode that can't be shifted or go below 1/30s. That's not a camera, that's a toy.
Keep in mind the sensor in the D7 is made by Sony. Minolta
contributes to Sony's profit line with each one they sell. Maybe
thats why the Minolta is priced higher.
My my you really aren't paying attention are you. For most of the life of the 707 and 717 they were priced higher than the D7/D7i.

Jawed
 
Maybe because sales were down. Lucky for them Konica bailed them
out or at least extended their life.
It's a good camera but many people shyed away
from the Minolta because of the heat/ battery problems and the
excessive noise, plastic feel, and being overpriced. Now it seems
their very existance could be in doubt.
Do YOU have any figures to back THAT up? What planet are you from exactly? News of this merger is ancient. It was a straight share swap and Konica was the larger company. They both competed in two markets and by merging have a better chance of competing with Nikon and Canon.
Phil's reviews clearly shows it to have the least resolution and
the most noise. So you statement that the D7 is best is flawed at
best. My opinion is that the Sony 717 beats the heck out of it.
Thanks for sharing - again. Yawn. Er, is this the Minolta forum? Guess we feel different. Must go to the Sony forum and tell you all why some time. Ah, heck I can't be bothered. You wont listen either.
If it's substantially more than the competition , Minolta won't
sell many. The competition is getting tougher each year.
Is it? Apart from the S7000 I dont see much else to worry about, esp from Sony if the V1 is anything to go by.

Steve
 
Presumably, you could put a Raynox 49mm .66 wide-angle converter on the D7's 28mm lens, and wouldn't you then have an 18mm lens?

Advantage: Minolta.

Not sure. Just surmising. Haven't tried it, as I don't have either the Fuji 602 or the D7.

fsw
For $100.00 the Fuji has a WA adapter . No problemo.
Yeah, right, no problemo. I have a friend with the previous Fuji
and WA adaptor. It's more trouble than it's worth to use, cos the
camera's zoom range isn't available. He doesn't use it, that's how
practical it is.
 

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