On ISO and camera comparisons

nixda

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This blurb is prompted by the continued emphasis in this forum on basing camera comparison on ISO numbers. I call this the “ISO-centric view”. It may be driven by the notion that the first question that comes to mind for a lot of photographers is what ISO to use for a given scene, before deciding on any of the other aspects that affect the final image. That notion may be useful for film cameras where changing film is cumbersome, but I contend that it is misdirected effort when it comes to digital photography.

Instead, I would suggest to carry out camera comparisons based on fundamental photographic aspects that have more to do with the artistic vision than with the technicalities of how a sensor reacts to incoming light.

Here is what I propose, and I’ll use an example to illustrate the process:

Say, you’re shooting wedding portraits at a windy location against a nice backdrop. Before you even touch a camera, you decide on the framing, the DoF, the amount of motion blur and even on a potential size that the resulting image is going to be printed.

Then you set up the gear to achieve that vision: focal length, subject distance, aperture, shutter speed. You have different cameras, MF, FF, APS-C, M43, etc. You set them all up in the same manner. In the end you snap basically identical images. You are interested in the IQ from the different cameras. You adjust the brightness to match, print or view the images at the same size and then assess SNR, absolute noise, DR, color, etc., whatever you’re looking for.

Why keeping these aspects constant for camera comparisons?
Shutter speed: maintains the same amount of motion blur
DoF: avoids confusion between image sharpness/detail and out-of-focus effects
Framing: avoids having to crop, which would introduce another variable, but could be acceptable
Print size: because that’s how the picture is going to hang on a wall eventually

Where does ISO come in here? In the best case, it doesn’t. Just use Auto-ISO, and let the camera get you into the proper image brightness range. Or you set it manually to make sure important highlights aren’t clipped. Or you digitally adjust image brightness in post. Or you do a combination of that. The point is that, with this approach, ISO (or in the more general sense, image brightness) becomes a secondary aspect, and it plays a minor role compared to the other aspects mentioned above. Not the other way around.

What then if the IQ is not acceptable for a given artistic vision? Then one either has to switch equipment or sacrifice one or more of the artistic aspects in order to collect more light. Or increase scene luminance.

I realize that there are valid comparisons where the photographic parameters are not kept constant. For example, looking at images at 100% will allow pixel-level assessments, or to see just how large an image can be printed before IQ suffers for a given viewing distance.

I’d like to hear if anything speaks against the mentioned approach and/or in favor of an approach based on ISO numbers. Which aspects matter most to you when comparing cameras and why?
 
Aperture and focal length to provide the coverage and DOF needed. Shutter speed sufficient to control both camera and subject movement. Whatever ISO it takes to achieve these.
 
I think I mostly agree with this. When I shot film, obviously, selecting the right ISO was the first consideration because once I loaded the film in the camera I was stuck with it. Now that I shoot digital my camera is in auto-ISO most of the time. ISO is really an after-thought to or a by-product of aperture and SS. The one notable exception is when I'm shooting with flash. I shoot in full manual when using flash and really want to have control of ISO.
 
I made a similar statement in a different thread, comparing cameras at 'ISO' stops is a complete irrelevance these days. Much better to have fixed equivalent aperture, shutter speed and let the camera choose it's sensitivity level to suit a set light level and then compare the images.

Fuji cameras wouldn't come out looking as superficially good as they do now but at least we wouldn't have to suffer the constant and hysterical "Fuji are cheats!!!" posts. That HAS to be worth it! 😉

Pat
 
a radical concept! Really, it has only been with my Fuji X cameras that I have begun to ignore ISO. For me, high ISO concerns had to do with low light and the higher end of the ISO range. Nowadays everything under 1600 is equivalent to me, so it is just set at 1600 Auto and forgotten. When light is less than what is optimal for 1600, I'm simply under exposing and pushing in post. Realistically, probably this situation is not unique to Fuji with cameras that have APS C or larger modern sensors.
 
a radical concept! Really, it has only been with my Fuji X cameras that I have begun to ignore ISO. For me, high ISO concerns had to do with low light and the higher end of the ISO range. Nowadays everything under 1600 is equivalent to me, so it is just set at 1600 Auto and forgotten. When light is less than what is optimal for 1600, I'm simply under exposing and pushing in post. Realistically, probably this situation is not unique to Fuji with cameras that have APS C or larger modern sensors.
May I ask why 1600 max vs. 6400 max? Do you see a difference in post processing RAW with one versus the other? Genuinely interested as I am just coming to Fuji via Sony.
 
a radical concept! Really, it has only been with my Fuji X cameras that I have begun to ignore ISO. For me, high ISO concerns had to do with low light and the higher end of the ISO range. Nowadays everything under 1600 is equivalent to me, so it is just set at 1600 Auto and forgotten. When light is less than what is optimal for 1600, I'm simply under exposing and pushing in post. Realistically, probably this situation is not unique to Fuji with cameras that have APS C or larger modern sensors.
May I ask why 1600 max vs. 6400 max? Do you see a difference in post processing RAW with one versus the other? Genuinely interested as I am just coming to Fuji via Sony.
I use the same upper limit. For me there are two reasons to not go higher than 1600 (at least what concerns the X-Trans I and II, I don't know about the III yet):

1. At higher ISOs a special type of noise reduction is used that can have negative effects on JPEG images. The raw data won't be affected by that.

2. More importantly, for me, analog amplification ends at ISO1600. Above that, there is only digital amplification, which can be done much better in post.

Having said that, it may be helpful to use higher ISOs for framing as the image will become brighter and easier to see in the viewfinder. However, even that can be circumvented by setting the camera up so that it will automatically brighten the image in the viewfinder/LCD depending on the scene luminance.
 
The ISO on my EX-2 is locked at base (200) where it has stayed now for over a year and a half. I simply ignore it and no longer consider it a function of the camera that has any value or meaning to me. I expose the sensor in my camera to get the best photo I can under the circumstances. The camera ISO setting has nothing to do with that process.

The Fuji X cameras are ISO-invariant. I very much prefer that design type and I'm sticking with it now and in the future. Goodbye ISO.
 
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The ISO on my EX-2 is locked at base (200) where it has stayed now for over a year and a half. I simply ignore it and no longer consider it a function of the camera that has any value or meaning to me. I expose the sensor in my camera to get the best photo I can under the circumstances. The camera ISO setting has nothing to do with that process.
I mostly do the same, i.e., use the sensor as if it was iso-invariant, but I found that there is a positive effect on SNR and noise quality when using in-camera analog amplification over external digital amplification under some circumstances, particularly in low-light scenarios. But it's been a while since I looked into that; it may be that it turns out I don't care too much anymore about these differences.
 
The ISO on my EX-2 is locked at base (200) where it has stayed now for over a year and a half. I simply ignore it and no longer consider it a function of the camera that has any value or meaning to me. I expose the sensor in my camera to get the best photo I can under the circumstances. The camera ISO setting has nothing to do with that process.
I mostly do the same, i.e., use the sensor as if it was iso-invariant, but I found that there is a positive effect on SNR and noise quality when using in-camera analog amplification over external digital amplification under some circumstances, particularly in low-light scenarios.
I haven't. I did when I first ran tests but then I ran the tests again using multiple raw converters and discovered that what I thought was a slight advantage to the analog gain was instead just poor processing by one of the converters.

Once I was convinced there was no difference I started ignoring the ISO setting. That was over a year and half ago. One less thing to worry about behind the camera is more attention to taking good photos. I'm not going back to fiddling with a worthless dial and wasting time.
But it's been a while since I looked into that; it may be that it turns out I don't care too much anymore about these differences.
 
The ISO on my EX-2 is locked at base (200) where it has stayed now for over a year and a half. I simply ignore it and no longer consider it a function of the camera that has any value or meaning to me. I expose the sensor in my camera to get the best photo I can under the circumstances. The camera ISO setting has nothing to do with that process.
I mostly do the same, i.e., use the sensor as if it was iso-invariant, but I found that there is a positive effect on SNR and noise quality when using in-camera analog amplification over external digital amplification under some circumstances, particularly in low-light scenarios.
I haven't. I did when I first ran tests but then I ran the tests again using multiple raw converters and discovered that what I thought was a slight advantage to the analog gain was instead just poor processing by one of the converters.

Once I was convinced there was no difference I started ignoring the ISO setting. That was over a year and half ago. One less thing to worry about behind the camera is more attention to taking good photos. I'm not going back to fiddling with a worthless dial and wasting time.
But it's been a while since I looked into that; it may be that it turns out I don't care too much anymore about these differences.
I guess I'll need to look into it again using the latest version of the raw converters I use. Or just use your word. Which raw converter do you use?
 
The ISO on my EX-2 is locked at base (200) where it has stayed now for over a year and a half. I simply ignore it and no longer consider it a function of the camera that has any value or meaning to me. I expose the sensor in my camera to get the best photo I can under the circumstances. The camera ISO setting has nothing to do with that process.
I mostly do the same, i.e., use the sensor as if it was iso-invariant, but I found that there is a positive effect on SNR and noise quality when using in-camera analog amplification over external digital amplification under some circumstances, particularly in low-light scenarios.
I haven't. I did when I first ran tests but then I ran the tests again using multiple raw converters and discovered that what I thought was a slight advantage to the analog gain was instead just poor processing by one of the converters.

Once I was convinced there was no difference I started ignoring the ISO setting. That was over a year and half ago. One less thing to worry about behind the camera is more attention to taking good photos. I'm not going back to fiddling with a worthless dial and wasting time.
But it's been a while since I looked into that; it may be that it turns out I don't care too much anymore about these differences.
I guess I'll need to look into it again using the latest version of the raw converters I use. Or just use your word. Which raw converter do you use?
I keep a bunch of them active because I have to teach this stuff. My Fuji RAF files I either process in C1 (most) or PhotoNinja or RT depending on the file specifics.
 
Sounds like a good idea to me. As long as a good standard low light scene is used to see how well a camera does in low light, better to have an apples to apples comparison. Then instead of discussing how a given camera does at a given ISO, which has less meaning than it used to, we can more clearly understand how well a camera does at the limits of low light... Which is what ISO comparisons were always trying to get at anyway...

-Ray
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We judge photographers by the photographs we see. We judge cameras by the photographs we miss - Haim Zamir
 

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