DiMAGE A1 (the D7 replacement)

Matthew Geier · Aug 1, 2003

AO said:
dynacam said:

The price quote was NZ$2499.00 RRP and release date is in October

Click to expand...

NZ$2,499 ~ US$1,445 ~ 1,295 Euro

Seems overpriced, considering that the Fuji S7000 MSRP is US$799.

Also note that Australia and New Zealand 'suffer' from inflated prices on many things, particularly cameras. There is little competition between importers and dealers to drive the prices down, so they 'pad' them up. Most of New Zealand's dealers seem to import though the the Australian agents...

When I bought my D7i in Singapore, the price difference between Sydney and Singapore paied for the trip to Singapore!. The difference isn't quite as marked now, but it's the going price is Singapore for the 7Hi is significantly lower what I see being quoted in Sydney.

Take %20 off that New Zealand price and then convert it to $USD.

fsw · Aug 1, 2003

I agree, Jose. And the DSLR may not be far off, if the rumors hold true, especially with the Minolta SSM lenses coming out. It makes sense to introduce the DSLR with them. And if the 7Hi successor indeed has image stabilization, is there a chance that IS might miraculously appear in the DSLR body as well?

If the 7Hi successor rumors prove to be true and the camera execution is solid, the IS feature is enough to make me consider the digicam as an upgrade while waiting for a Minolta DSLR. I could see real advantages, having IS on a 5MP digicam with its 200mm lens and a 1.7X or 2X converter attached.

My present IS digicam only maxes out at 2.1MP, although the lens is much longer.

fsw

José B said:
Hope this camera turns out to be a big hit. In the meantime, I will
wait patiently for that Maxxum 7/9-based DSLR.

Regards,

José
--

AO · Aug 1, 2003

Marko, you've missed my point completely.

I am not saying that the S7000 is a better camera. I am saying that they will end up competing against each other and the S7000 will enjuy a big price advantage ($799 MSRP).

Consider other 5+MP cameras and their prices at buydig.com, if possible (not affiliated but heard that they are reputable):

Canon Poweshot G5 (5MP, 4X zoom) - $619
Nikon Coolpix 5700 (5MP, 8X zoom) - US$659 (after $100 rebate)
Olympus C-5050 Zoom (5MP, 3X f/1.8 lens) - $514
Sony Cyber-shot DSC-F717 (5MP, 5X f/2.0-2.4 Carl Zeiss, Hologram AF assist and IR) - $633 at ibuydigital.com, $695 at new egg
Fuji FinePix S602z (3/6MP, 6X zoom) - $589

For the reference, the current Minolta DiMAGE 7Hi is $849

The next price range, is the Canon EOS 10D SLR at $1329 (excluding lens).

So you tell me what the A1 is going to compete against and whether it is priced right.

Marko Björkroth said:
AO said:

To you, perhaps. While I acknowledge the Minolta's features you
mentioned, a person with different priorities may point out that
the Fuji:
1. Has a higher res CCD (equivalent to ~~8MP)~~

Click to expand...

How do you know that? Have you seen any samples yet? With such a
high res CCD the lens might become the bottleneck.

The 3rd generation SuperCCd has 3.1MP and it is widely accepted that in the 6MP mode it is comparable to a 4MP camera. The SuperCCD-HR has 6.3MP so I extrapolated.

The Lens is the "Super EBC", probably the same that the S602z has, which is considered a good one.

Marko Björkroth said:
Marko Björkroth said:

2. Has a better video mode (full VGA + sound at 30fps up to memory
capacity).

Click to expand...

I take that better means zooming is not possible. Sorry, it still
won't be as good as a real video camera.

Show me one digital camera (not video) that records sound -and- can zoom while recording.

The S7000 is -not- a video camera but the ability to shoot clips is important to some.

Marko Björkroth said:
Marko Björkroth said:

3. Has better battery time (based on S602z vs. 7Hi)

Click to expand...

Based on the specifications, A1 uses a Li-Ion battery and there
will also be an additional battery back/grip available.

Marko Björkroth said:

4. Has dual memory slots

Click to expand...

According to some rumours, the A1 will support both SD and CF. IMHO
only CF support counts, because other cards are either too small
(no 512 or 1024 MB cards available) or expensive or both.

Rumors aside, IMO dual slot is good because you don't have to throw away the 16MB xD card the camera comes with (BTW, xD goes to 512).

Marko Björkroth said:
Marko Björkroth said:

5. Has the "last 5 frames" option.

Click to expand...

You must be joking. The frame rate is only 2 fps, so it's much
worse than 7Hi's continuous mode (9 frames @ 2 fps).

Other sources quote 3.3fps

José B · Aug 1, 2003

fsw said:
I agree, Jose. And the DSLR may not be far off, if the rumors hold
true, especially with the Minolta SSM lenses coming out. It makes
sense to introduce the DSLR with them. And if the 7Hi successor
indeed has image stabilization, is there a chance that IS might
miraculously appear in the DSLR body as well?

The built-in IS on a Minolta DSLR will be a barn burner. I'll order one right away upon official announcement.

fsw said:
If the 7Hi successor rumors prove to be true and the camera
execution is solid, the IS feature is enough to make me consider
the digicam as an upgrade while waiting for a Minolta DSLR. I
could see real advantages, having IS on a 5MP digicam with its
200mm lens and a 1.7X or 2X converter attached.

My present IS digicam only maxes out at 2.1MP, although the lens is
much longer.

I agree, with you the A1 might be a viable option. There is a small chance that you might have to shell out more money in the short term just in case Minolta announces that much-awaited DSLR before the end of the year.

Since I already have a 7Hi, there is really no table-pounding reason to upgrade to the A1 albeit the IS feature. I am closer to upgrading my Dual III to the Elite 5400 or buying a brand new Maxxum 9 than the A1. However, I will wait patiently for the DSLR.

Happy clicking,

José

fsw said:
fsw

José B said:

Hope this camera turns out to be a big hit. In the meantime, I will
wait patiently for that Maxxum 7/9-based DSLR.

Regards,

José
--

Click to expand...

--

--

Andrew Cruickshank · Aug 1, 2003

Matthew Geier said:
The grip gets warm on the D.x camera's 'cause the main power supply
is in there. Better there than say right behind the CCD. More heat
== more noise in the image.

Now they have apparently stuck a battery pack in the grip, were is
the heat generating power supply now ?

From a marketing perspective Minolta might have gained more
from putting the power regulator near the CCD rather than in
the handgrip. Few complaints about heat.

The heat is a result of power dissipated by the regulator but that
is usually more affected by current rather than voltage. Going for
a higher voltage Li-ion supply would increase the voltage and
reduce the current and likely reduce the heat. That combined with
any improvement in the power drawn by the electronics would
give Minolta more options as to where to place the regulator.

--
---------------
Andrew.

Jawed49152 · Aug 1, 2003

If you compare the D7Hi, the D7i and the Fuji S602z you'll come to one indisputable conclusion: a lot of people have bought the Minoltas in preference to the Fuji. Who cares why. The Minoltas cost (and have always cost) more than the Fuji. There have been protracted periods when the 7i and the 7Hi have been hard to buy, because demand has been so high.

Whether they are direct competitors is debatable. Whether cost is so important is also debatable. The Fuji can't shoot at 28mm focal length, for one thing, without some kind of adaptor. An awful lot of people are forced, for that one good reason, to consider that the Fuji is not a competitor to the Minolta.

Pity, really, because the Fuji's a fairly decent camera otherwise, a big improvement over it's predecessor.

Oh, by the way, in Video Recording mode the D7i/Hi can zoom while recording, including sound. Cräp video quality, but there it is, a still camera that does what you seem to think can't be done.

2 years after the D7 came out there is still no camera that seriously competes, if you want a 28mm wide end and lots of zoom. That plus manual zoom and exposure preview are key selling points of the D7 series. Some people, having experienced those features, find that there is no other camera to compete.

It would be lovely if the A1 only cost $700 but it aint gonna happen soon.

Jawed

Ed Starkey · Aug 1, 2003

And although I really love the Minolta D7i, image quality is going to have to be close to a 10D (at least at ISO 400, with a so-so lense).

But this might not be so necessary if the I.S. is as good as reported and the A.F. is really that good too!!

Wow - what a revelation!!

The A1 is like a DSLR with 28-200mm reach, fast AF, and low noise since you can now use ISO 100-200 and slow shutter (thanks to the I.S. systems) and emulate the 10D ISO 800-1600 performance?? Wouldn't that be just great!!!

I see a lot of D7i cameras going up for sale on Ebay in a few weeks!!!

Ed

caterpillar · Aug 1, 2003

AO said:
Marko, you've missed my point completely.

I am not saying that the S7000 is a better camera. I am saying
that they will end up competing against each other and the S7000
will enjuy a big price advantage ($799 MSRP).

Consider other 5+MP cameras and their prices at buydig.com, if
possible (not affiliated but heard that they are reputable):

Canon Poweshot G5 (5MP, 4X zoom) - $619

Nikon Coolpix 5700 (5MP, 8X zoom) - US$659 (after $100 rebate)

Olympus C-5050 Zoom (5MP, 3X f/1.8 lens) - $514

Sony Cyber-shot DSC-F717 (5MP, 5X f/2.0-2.4 Carl Zeiss, Hologram

AF assist and IR) - $633 at ibuydigital.com, $695 at new egg

Fuji FinePix S602z (3/6MP, 6X zoom) - $589

For the reference, the current Minolta DiMAGE 7Hi is $849

The next price range, is the Canon EOS 10D SLR at $1329 (excluding
lens).

So you tell me what the A1 is going to compete against and whether
it is priced right.

Errr, the Pentax *ist dslr?

Priced estimated U$1,500. Comes with 18-35mm lens, 6mp. And supposedly small in size.

--

Caterpillar

Qsam · Aug 1, 2003

Hmm
Sigma SD-9 $1200 + $250 Lens 28-200mm (10.2M Pixel Sensor)

Jawed said:
If you compare the D7Hi, the D7i and the Fuji S602z you'll come to
one indisputable conclusion: a lot of people have bought the
Minoltas in preference to the Fuji. Who cares why. The Minoltas
cost (and have always cost) more than the Fuji. There have been
protracted periods when the 7i and the 7Hi have been hard to buy,
because demand has been so high.

Whether they are direct competitors is debatable. Whether cost is
so important is also debatable. The Fuji can't shoot at 28mm focal
length, for one thing, without some kind of adaptor. An awful lot
of people are forced, for that one good reason, to consider that
the Fuji is not a competitor to the Minolta.

Pity, really, because the Fuji's a fairly decent camera otherwise,
a big improvement over it's predecessor.

Oh, by the way, in Video Recording mode the D7i/Hi can zoom while
recording, including sound. Cräp video quality, but there it is, a
still camera that does what you seem to think can't be done.

2 years after the D7 came out there is still no camera that
seriously competes, if you want a 28mm wide end and lots of zoom.
That plus manual zoom and exposure preview are key selling points
of the D7 series. Some people, having experienced those features,
find that there is no other camera to compete.

It would be lovely if the A1 only cost $700 but it aint gonna
happen soon.

Jawed

*isteve · Aug 1, 2003

I'm keeeing mine as a backup!!

Ed Starkey said:
And although I really love the Minolta D7i, image quality is going
to have to be close to a 10D (at least at ISO 400, with a so-so
lense).

But this might not be so necessary if the I.S. is as good as
reported and the A.F. is really that good too!!

Wow - what a revelation!!

The A1 is like a DSLR with 28-200mm reach, fast AF, and low noise
since you can now use ISO 100-200 and slow shutter (thanks to the
I.S. systems) and emulate the 10D ISO 800-1600 performance??
Wouldn't that be just great!!!

I see a lot of D7i cameras going up for sale on Ebay in a few weeks!!!

Ed

Bramante M Perkasa · Aug 1, 2003

I love the size of my 7Hi. With my BIG hands I can grip it with all but my last finger.

When I hold a Coolpix 5700, only my middle finger can hold the grip, while my ring and last finger hanging. My girlfriend can hold 5700 comfortably though.

HOWEVER, Nikon also tries to sell the 5700 battery pack, which makes 5700 much taller, then becomes more comfortable to grip. This means Coolpix 5700 is comfortable for small-handed people, and big-handed people can "simply" buy the battery pack.

According to dynacam Minolta Dimage A1 also has the battery pack vertical grip option. See where I am going?

Regards,
Bram

W

JusGene said:
Making them smaller means that the great number of features and
controls must be 'compacted' into a smaller area as well. This
might be good for people with small fingers, but FINDING the
controls, SEEING them and USING them isn't always best accomplished
with the trend toward 'reduction'.

From the posts I read, and my understanding of the photography most
shooters are attempting, a camera slightly larger than the D7 might
be more suitable.

Gene

dynacam said:

From the A4 page I got of all models here is a scanned image
showing the new A1, it is not a great image as it was a small
picture

Click to expand...

dynacam · Aug 1, 2003

You have miss read my post, the image I scanned was small, NOT the camera, it is about the same as the current but with a bigger hand grip

JusGene said:
Making them smaller means that the great number of features and
controls must be 'compacted' into a smaller area as well. This
might be good for people with small fingers, but FINDING the
controls, SEEING them and USING them isn't always best accomplished
with the trend toward 'reduction'.

From the posts I read, and my understanding of the photography most
shooters are attempting, a camera slightly larger than the D7 might
be more suitable.

Gene

dynacam said:

From the A4 page I got of all models here is a scanned image
showing the new A1, it is not a great image as it was a small
picture

Click to expand...

--
dynacam
(Graeme Knox)
http://www.k-island.com

Marko Björkroth · Aug 2, 2003

Qsam said:
Hmm
Sigma SD-9 $1200 + $250 Lens 28-200mm (10.2M Pixel Sensor)

Close, but no cigar. Due to the cropping factor that lens becomes a 47-340 mm lens. That makes it totally unusable indoors etc.

Additionally, based on the samples I've seen Sigma's low light (high ISO and slow shutter speed) performance is even worse than 7xx's. It surely blows the D7xx out of water in good light, but I want an all-round camera.

Marko

Marko Björkroth · Aug 2, 2003

AO said:
Marko, you've missed my point completely.
The next price range, is the Canon EOS 10D SLR at $1329 (excluding
lens).

Right, excluding the lens. You'll need more than a cheap, consumer grade lens in order to beat the lens of A1. In fact, IMHO, most digicams beat the cheap kit lenses (35-80/4-5.6 etc.), no matter what the manufacturer is. I had Tamron 24-70/3.3-5.6 and it was worse than Canon G1.

http://www3.pbase.com/jkurkjia/10d_vs_7i_resolution

Additionally, you'll need at least two lenses in order to get the same range (28-200) and an extender tube for macro photography. You'll also need a much sturdier (=heavier) tripod due to the mirror slap. Macro photography won't be possible without a tripod.

AO said:
So you tell me what the A1 is going to compete against and whether
it is priced right.

Well, of course it's going to compete against the F7000, new Sony (828?), Nikons (5700 and 5400), Olympus E-20 and even the 10D and D100.

The price might seem high, but it's the only camera that offers both a reasonable wide-angle (28 mm) and reasonable tele (200 mm) in one, small package. Nikon 5400 comes close, but it lacks TTL viewfinder and manual zoom. The SLRs need at least two lenses in order to achieve the same range. I don't care about the size and weigh of the camera (in fact, larger cameras are usually easier to operate), but the size and weight of the camera bag is a big issue to me.

If one does not need manual zoom or 28 mm wide-angle, then Fuji's price is unbeatable.

AO said:
Show me one digital camera (not video) that records sound -and- can
zoom while recording.

Dimage 7i and 7Hi. That's just one of the many benefits of manual zoom control. However, focusing (AF or manual) is not possible if the camera is also recording audio.

AO said:
Other sources quote 3.3fps

There seem to be two continuous modes:
3.3 fps, first 5 frames
2 fps, last 5 frames

According to the Dpreview's review, the 7Hi can shoot up to 9 frames @ 5 fps. Personally I think the quoted speed is too optimistic (measurement error?), the actual frame rate seems to vary depending on the subject (file size) etc.)

Marko

Marko Björkroth · Aug 2, 2003

José B said:
Hope this camera turns out to be a big hit. In the meantime, I will
wait patiently for that Maxxum 7/9-based DSLR.

I have always thought that Minolta uses the 7xx cameras as a test bench for testing new ideas. They have put a lot of time and effort on the camera, carefully listening their customers (something they have not done very well in the past!) and introducing improvements, such as manual flash mode (for triggering simple slave flashes), PC sync socket, real time histogram etc.

That's a wise strategy. If they produce a digicam, that turns out to be a mistake, who cares, just wait for the next model. However, if they make a new DSLR that does not blow the competition out of water... that might ruin their reputation forever (third failure in a row).

Marko

José B · Aug 2, 2003

[text snipped]

Marko Björkroth said:
That's a wise strategy. If they produce a digicam, that turns out
to be a mistake, who cares, just wait for the next model. However,
if they make a new DSLR that does not blow the competition out of
water... that might ruin their reputation forever (third failure in
a row).

Marko

I'm pretty confident that the upcoming Minolta DSLR will be at the very least competitive. Since they are in the world of business, Konica-Minolta will have to take chances. They've been very successful with their lineup of film SLRs which is arguably the best values in the industry. They will parlay this competitiveness in the DSLR world.

Personally, I am staying the course with my excellent Maxxum 7 system, Scan Dual III and Dimage 7Hi. Minolta will no doubt come out with a DSLR one year from now. I might pass on that one until I see a full-frame version which should come in about three years.

Best regards,

José

--

David Martin · Aug 2, 2003

Marko Björkroth said:
AO said:

Marko, you've missed my point completely.
The next price range, is the Canon EOS 10D SLR at $1329 (excluding
lens).

Click to expand...

Right, excluding the lens. You'll need more than a cheap, consumer
grade lens in order to beat the lens of A1. In fact, IMHO, most
digicams beat the cheap kit lenses (35-80/4-5.6 etc.), no matter
what the manufacturer is. I had Tamron 24-70/3.3-5.6 and it was
worse than Canon G1.

I've seen some fine examples from the Tamrom 19-35 - makes me regret the money I paid out for my Sigma 15-30 a little.
While your point has some validity, some of the cheap lenses are fine.

Marko Björkroth said:
http://www3.pbase.com/jkurkjia/10d_vs_7i_resolution

Additionally, you'll need at least two lenses in order to get the
same range (28-200) and an extender tube for macro photography.
You'll also need a much sturdier (=heavier) tripod due to the
mirror slap. Macro photography won't be possible without a tripod.

My 10D has mirror lock-up, but I sure wouldn't fancy using it on a light tripod - too pricey a loss if it blew over!

Marko Björkroth said:
Marko Björkroth said:

So you tell me what the A1 is going to compete against and whether
it is priced right.

Click to expand...

Well, of course it's going to compete against the F7000, new Sony
(828?), Nikons (5700 and 5400), Olympus E-20 and even the 10D and
D100.

The price might seem high, but it's the only camera that offers
both a reasonable wide-angle (28 mm) and reasonable tele (200 mm)
in one, small package. Nikon 5400 comes close, but it lacks TTL
viewfinder and manual zoom. The SLRs need at least two lenses in
order to achieve the same range. I don't care about the size and
weigh of the camera (in fact, larger cameras are usually easier to
operate), but the size and weight of the camera bag is a big issue
to me.

If one does not need manual zoom or 28 mm wide-angle, then Fuji's
price is unbeatable.

Marko Björkroth said:

Show me one digital camera (not video) that records sound -and- can
zoom while recording.

Click to expand...

Dimage 7i and 7Hi. That's just one of the many benefits of manual
zoom control. However, focusing (AF or manual) is not possible if
the camera is also recording audio.

Marko Björkroth said:

Other sources quote 3.3fps

Click to expand...

There seem to be two continuous modes:
3.3 fps, first 5 frames
2 fps, last 5 frames

According to the Dpreview's review, the 7Hi can shoot up to 9
frames @ 5 fps. Personally I think the quoted speed is too
optimistic (measurement error?), the actual frame rate seems to
vary depending on the subject (file size) etc.)

Marko

--
Regards,
DaveMart
Please see profile for equipment

alex74298 · Aug 2, 2003

Marko Björkroth said:
Qsam said:

Hmm
Sigma SD-9 $1200 + $250 Lens 28-200mm (10.2M Pixel Sensor)

Click to expand...

Close, but no cigar. Due to the cropping factor that lens becomes a
47-340 mm lens. That makes it totally unusable indoors etc.

Damn! All these years I've been using a 50mm standard lens on my Dynax and now I find it's totally unusable.

alex74298 · Aug 2, 2003

Matthew Geier said:
Also note that Australia and New Zealand 'suffer' from inflated
prices on many things, particularly cameras. There is little
competition between importers and dealers to drive the prices down,
so they 'pad' them up. Most of New Zealand's dealers seem to import
though the the Australian agents...

Spot on there. Best price I can find for a Dynax(Maxxum)9 in Oz is around AUS$4000 which is about twice the price B&H is asking in the States.

Mark K · Aug 2, 2003

José B said:
José B said:

That's a wise strategy. If they produce a digicam, that turns out
to be a mistake, who cares, just wait for the next model. However,
if they make a new DSLR that does not blow the competition out of
water... that might ruin their reputation forever (third failure in
a row).

Marko

Click to expand...

I'm pretty confident that the upcoming Minolta DSLR will be at the
very least competitive. Since they are in the world of business,
Konica-Minolta will have to take chances. They've been very
successful with their lineup of film SLRs which is arguably the
best values in the industry. They will parlay this competitiveness
in the DSLR world.

Personally, I am staying the course with my excellent Maxxum 7
system, Scan Dual III and Dimage 7Hi. Minolta will no doubt come
out with a DSLR one year from now. I might pass on that one until I
see a full-frame version which should come in about three years.

Best regards,

José

I have brought Scan Elite 5400 and is very satisfied. Think twice it took Minolta years work to make a digital product like this to be near perfect and more affordable. How long will it take Minolta to make a DSLR like this?
Wish list for a dSLR includes
1. CCD auto cleaning
2. in body IS
3. not too expensive

--
Mark K
http://www.pbase.com/mark_k

DiMAGE A1 (the D7 replacement)

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