Another Reason to Stay Away from Windows 10

I think you presented a false choice -- remove or risk at crash at boot. I clearly presented a third and very viable option (disable without removal). I call your false choice nonsense.
If you know enough about Windows' internals to know for certain that's a viable option in every case, good enough. I do not. And I fail to see how Microsoft benefits from destroying third-party programs.
It definitely is for any program that operates under Windows.

It might get more tricky with a third party boot loader that is loaded by the hardware/BIOS before Windows runs. But I'm pretty sure Windows could disable that too.
How often does this actually happen? How many PC Talk posters reading this thread have actually had programs deleted by a Windows 10 update, and what were those programs?
Ahhh, okay. But we've been there and done that with the Windows advertising thing too. We went from no adverts, to only a few adverts, and then it's easy to disable those adverts.

Pretty boring actually.
Apparently not boring enough to prevent an endless series of breathless postings predicting the impending adpocalypse. :-)
So, why don't we stick to the essential and fundamental principles at stake here:

* Don't stick me with adverts

* Don't reconfigure/upgrade my systems without permission

* Don't delete MY sh*t

* Don't send my private sh*t to the mothership or anywhere else
You'll need to run an entire computing ecosystem that respects those principles; a browser that displays no ads, no use of an OS or applications that require phone-home activation, etc.

Doable, but some sacrifices will probably be required.
 
After over 20 years of PC development, operating and maintaining a PC should not require the user to be computer tech or spend hours trying to figure out some bug or glitch. Tech support...really? An OS requires an 800 page reference manual.... really? No wonder people keep PCs for many years or just switched to a tablet. Just my .02

Greg
 
I think you presented a false choice -- remove or risk at crash at boot. I clearly presented a third and very viable option (disable without removal). I call your false choice nonsense.
If you know enough about Windows' internals to know for certain that's a viable option in every case, good enough. I do not. And I fail to see how Microsoft benefits from destroying third-party programs.
It definitely is for any program that operates under Windows.

It might get more tricky with a third party boot loader that is loaded by the hardware/BIOS before Windows runs. But I'm pretty sure Windows could disable that too.
How often does this actually happen? How many PC Talk posters reading this thread have actually had programs deleted by a Windows 10 update, and what were those programs?
Ahhh, okay. But we've been there and done that with the Windows advertising thing too. We went from no adverts, to only a few adverts, and then it's easy to disable those adverts.

Pretty boring actually.
Apparently not boring enough to prevent an endless series of breathless postings predicting the impending adpocalypse. :-)
So, why don't we stick to the essential and fundamental principles at stake here:

* Don't stick me with adverts

* Don't reconfigure/upgrade my systems without permission

* Don't delete MY sh*t

* Don't send my private sh*t to the mothership or anywhere else
You'll need to run an entire computing ecosystem that respects those principles; a browser that displays no ads, no use of an OS or applications that require phone-home activation, etc.

Doable, but some sacrifices will probably be required.
I can turn off ads in my browsers.

Activation doesn't delete programs or user data.

I can, under Win7, decide whether to let an update/upgrade install, for the O/S, for MS programs, and for non-MS programs and drivers.

I can block a certain program or programs from talking to the 'mothership' or other places.

So far, I've not noticed any sacrifices for having these capabilities.
 
Apparently not boring enough to prevent an endless series of breathless postings predicting the impending adpocalypse. :-)
Like I said... pretty boring.
So, why don't we stick to the essential and fundamental principles at stake here:

* Don't stick me with adverts

* Don't reconfigure/upgrade my systems without permission

* Don't delete MY sh*t

* Don't send my private sh*t to the mothership or anywhere else
You'll need to run an entire computing ecosystem that respects those principles; a browser that displays no ads, no use of an OS or applications that require phone-home activation, etc.

Doable, but some sacrifices will probably be required.
Very few. By the way, browsers don't really display ads. Well, I have seen some rebranded browsers with adware baked in but obviously I'm not going there.

Web pages display adverts. But that's very different from having my operating system delivering ads onto my eyeballs. Trust me, Microsoft understand the difference. And see it as a huge opportunity for them.

I'm certainly not upset with Mozilla because Firefox faithfully renders the ads that are included in web pages published by other parties.

However, I would be mightily upset if Mozilla silently uninstalled AdBlockPlus because they decided in their wisdom that it wasn't good for me and I really, really wanted the ads but just didn't know it yet!
 
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I think you presented a false choice -- remove or risk at crash at boot. I clearly presented a third and very viable option (disable without removal). I call your false choice nonsense.
If you know enough about Windows' internals to know for certain that's a viable option in every case, good enough. I do not. And I fail to see how Microsoft benefits from destroying third-party programs.
It definitely is for any program that operates under Windows.

It might get more tricky with a third party boot loader that is loaded by the hardware/BIOS before Windows runs. But I'm pretty sure Windows could disable that too.
How often does this actually happen? How many PC Talk posters reading this thread have actually had programs deleted by a Windows 10 update, and what were those programs?
Ahhh, okay. But we've been there and done that with the Windows advertising thing too. We went from no adverts, to only a few adverts, and then it's easy to disable those adverts.

Pretty boring actually.
Apparently not boring enough to prevent an endless series of breathless postings predicting the impending adpocalypse. :-)
So, why don't we stick to the essential and fundamental principles at stake here:

* Don't stick me with adverts

* Don't reconfigure/upgrade my systems without permission

* Don't delete MY sh*t

* Don't send my private sh*t to the mothership or anywhere else
You'll need to run an entire computing ecosystem that respects those principles; a browser that displays no ads, no use of an OS or applications that require phone-home activation, etc.

Doable, but some sacrifices will probably be required.
I can turn off ads in my browsers.

Activation doesn't delete programs or user data.

I can, under Win7, decide whether to let an update/upgrade install, for the O/S, for MS programs, and for non-MS programs and drivers.

I can block a certain program or programs from talking to the 'mothership' or other places.

So far, I've not noticed any sacrifices for having these capabilities.
That's fine for you, but malch was more specific about his requirements.

"Don't stick me with adverts".

AdBlock and uBlock Origin do a good job of preventing external ads, but in my case at least don't always stop internal promo ads for the website itself.

Much like the internal "ad" tiles for Office, MS Store, etc. that caused so many upsets here...

"Don't send my private sh*t to the mothership or anywhere else"

Even Windows 7 requires activation; do you know exactly what data it sends back to Microsoft?
 
Apparently not boring enough to prevent an endless series of breathless postings predicting the impending adpocalypse. :-)
Like I said... pretty boring.
So, why don't we stick to the essential and fundamental principles at stake here:

* Don't stick me with adverts

* Don't reconfigure/upgrade my systems without permission

* Don't delete MY sh*t

* Don't send my private sh*t to the mothership or anywhere else
You'll need to run an entire computing ecosystem that respects those principles; a browser that displays no ads, no use of an OS or applications that require phone-home activation, etc.

Doable, but some sacrifices will probably be required.
Very few. By the way, browsers don't really display ads. Well, I have seen some rebranded browsers with adware baked in but obviously I'm not going there.

Web pages display adverts. But that's very different from having my operating system delivering ads onto my eyeballs. Trust me, Microsoft understand the difference. And see it as a huge opportunity for them.

I'm certainly not upset with Mozilla because Firefox faithfully renders the ads that are included in web pages published by other parties.
If first-party adverts are OK in browsers, you shouldn't be bothered by first-party adverts in Windows like the "Office" and "Store" tiles.

Oh, never mind, those can be turned off in seconds--unlike web pages' first-party adverts.
However, I would be mightily upset if Mozilla silently uninstalled AdBlockPlus because they decided in their wisdom that it wasn't good for me and I really, really wanted the ads but just didn't know it yet!
Then you'd have to find a different browser. A minor inconvenience.

Edit: I'm switching to another drive to play Fallout 4. You gentlemen have the floor.
 
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If first-party adverts are OK in browsers, you shouldn't be bothered by first-party adverts in Windows like the "Office" and "Store" tiles.
Clearly we have a very different take on this.

Web page ads are like the billboards along the freeway. I don't like them but they're in a public place and first amendment rights apply etc. etc.

Having Microsoft placing ads in my operating system is like having the ClearChannel man with a broom and a bucket of wallpaper paste sticking giant posters on my living room wall.

Even if he uses crappy paste that makes the posters easy to scrape off :-)
 
If first-party adverts are OK in browsers, you shouldn't be bothered by first-party adverts in Windows like the "Office" and "Store" tiles.
Clearly we have a very different take on this.

Web page ads are like the billboards along the freeway. I don't like them but they're in a public place and first amendment rights apply etc. etc.

Having Microsoft placing ads in my operating system is like having the ClearChannel man with a broom and a bucket of wallpaper paste sticking giant posters on my living room wall.

Even if he uses crappy paste that makes the posters easy to scrape off :-)
Heh, I like your analogy. Still, I see vastly more in-browser ads that just *don't* scrape off, than those so-far easily removed MS tiles. Luckily, I ignore most PC ads just as I do on TV;and the adblockers seem to do a fair job getting rid of the most obnoxious offenders.

(and hopefully the malware purveyors' ads).
 
This is another alarmist and chicken little article about windows 10. There is nothing new about this in Windows 10. Windows upgrades have long since removed certain Antivirus and Utility programs that install buggy drivers that hook non-public kernel data structures.
"Nothing new about this in Windows 10"? I've used Windows since 3.1. Sometimes (very rarely) a program would crash after an update. But never did the update remove the program, much less lie about it and tell me that no changes had been made to my computer.

So let me ask you this: Someone uses your computer with your permission. They remove some program or programs they believe should not be on your computer. They not only do not tell you they have done so, but they tell you the opposite - that they made no changes to what is installed on your computer.

Are you O.K. with that, even if the person is a Windows expert? If not, why is it all right for Microsoft to do it?
because you agreed to let Microsoft do this. If you object, just remove windows and install something else. iOS does a similar thing but they trap unsuitable software at the installation end rather than at the up grade end. You notice that if you upgrade iOS, you jail break is removed...
 
Heh, I like your analogy.
I think it's a valid one. They really are encroaching on my private territory. That's not the same as an ad hosted on a web server that is owned or rented by someone else in a different building/city/country.
Still, I see vastly more in-browser ads that just *don't* scrape off, than those so-far easily removed MS tiles.
Yikes, are you really willing to set the bar that low?

I love Windows 10 -- it's not quite as bad as malware!
Luckily, I ignore most PC ads just as I do on TV;and the adblockers seem to do a fair job getting rid of the most obnoxious offenders.
I haven't found an effective ad blocker for TV so I cut the cord quite a few years ago. No more ads and I saved quite a few thousand bucks.
 
What about data that might be associated with those programs?

It seems to me that other non-Microsoft programs are part of the users data. For Microsoft to delete that data without explicit permission, and then lie about it, crosses the line into the realm of the totally unacceptable.
Excellent point Malch. Even if MS does not delete the user's data, the data can be useless without the program that created it. So effectively MS is deleting user data too!

So the folks who are defending MS action of deleting programs without warning. Would you be OK with losing your irreplaceable data? I think not.

Sky
What are the names of the executables that were deleted in a Win 10 install or upgrade? Did the were the executables available to download and reinstall? So far, I have only see executables of the Utility type that have been moved the windows.old folder. Microsoft has a right to protect it's property from malfunctioning software if they give free tech support. Would you like to go back to the days where you had to pay for each incident you sent to MS?
 
So the folks who are defending MS action of deleting programs without warning. Would you be OK with losing your irreplaceable data? I think not.
A responsible vendor will NEVER delete user data. It's just not necessary.

With warning and permission, it would be quite reasonable for Microsoft to prevent the software from running automatically. It's also easy to do. Just rename the problem folder and/or files.

To automatically and invisibly uninstall another program, and then tell the user nothing was deleted, is simply outrageous and inexcusable.
Executables need to be uninstalled because of the effects on the registry. I believe that Microsoft current scheme is to move the banished executable to the windows.old folder. If the software is erased (still has complete registry entries), I would look for malware involvement.
 
Heh, if a PC started crashing at every boot after a major update due to incompatible applications/drivers, don't you know the screams would be heard around the world.

This is a no-win situation for Microsoft; they'll get howled at in either case.
Nonsense.

Windows could easily alert the user to the problem and offer some choices:

* Remove the program.

* Disable the program without removing it.

* Do nothing and live dangerously.
My post wasn't so long that you had to snip the last couple of lines:

"I guess they decided that removing potentially-incompatible programs was the lesser evil, but they really should pop up a window explaining exactly what was deleted and why."

It's not nonsense. I'm talking about a problem that might be so severe the PC crashes at boot.
I think you presented a false choice -- remove or risk at crash at boot. I clearly presented a third and very viable option (disable without removal). I call your false choice nonsense.
If you know enough about Windows' internals to know for certain that's a viable option in every case, good enough. I do not. And I fail to see how Microsoft benefits from destroying third-party programs.
Do you know what software Microsoft has deleted in conjunction with an install or upgrade?
You further assume that Microsoft should choose the method of resolution. I say that needs to be the users choice.
If the PC may be unable to boot, how useful is it to pop up that handy little window telling the PC to keep the app/driver--and then crash immediately, and at every boot thereafter.

I'd personally prefer to have that choice, but do you think that every user's going to understand and respond appropriately? I doubt it.
Probably not. I'd rather Microsoft sell those users pet rocks, or some other product they can handle.
You don't get that choice, and neither does Microsoft.

And before too many knickers get permanently knotted:

How often does this actually happen? How many PC Talk posters reading this thread have actually had programs deleted by a Windows 10 update, and what were those programs?
 
I think you presented a false choice -- remove or risk at crash at boot. I clearly presented a third and very viable option (disable without removal). I call your false choice nonsense.
If you know enough about Windows' internals to know for certain that's a viable option in every case, good enough. I do not. And I fail to see how Microsoft benefits from destroying third-party programs.
It definitely is for any program that operates under Windows.

It might get more tricky with a third party boot loader that is loaded by the hardware/BIOS before Windows runs. But I'm pretty sure Windows could disable that too.
How often does this actually happen? How many PC Talk posters reading this thread have actually had programs deleted by a Windows 10 update, and what were those programs?
Ahhh, okay. But we've been there and done that with the Windows advertising thing too. We went from no adverts, to only a few adverts, and then it's easy to disable those adverts.

Pretty boring actually. So, why don't we stick to the essential and fundamental principles at stake here:

* Don't stick me with adverts

* Don't reconfigure/upgrade my systems without permission

* Don't delete MY sh*t

* Don't send my private sh*t to the mothership or anywhere else
You can always vote with your wallet. Why not just uninstall windows and install Linux?
 
Heh, if a PC started crashing at every boot after a major update due to incompatible applications/drivers, don't you know the screams would be heard around the world.

This is a no-win situation for Microsoft; they'll get howled at in either case.
Nonsense.

Windows could easily alert the user to the problem and offer some choices:

* Remove the program.

* Disable the program without removing it.

* Do nothing and live dangerously.
My post wasn't so long that you had to snip the last couple of lines:

"I guess they decided that removing potentially-incompatible programs was the lesser evil, but they really should pop up a window explaining exactly what was deleted and why."

It's not nonsense. I'm talking about a problem that might be so severe the PC crashes at boot.
I think you presented a false choice -- remove or risk at crash at boot. I clearly presented a third and very viable option (disable without removal). I call your false choice nonsense.
If you know enough about Windows' internals to know for certain that's a viable option in every case, good enough. I do not. And I fail to see how Microsoft benefits from destroying third-party programs.
Do you know what software Microsoft has deleted in conjunction with an install or upgrade?
I've seen no software deletions myself on any of our five Windows 10 PCs, but apparently a few utilities are affected.

I did a search on this matter, and most of the reports about this appeared to date from just after the November update. Some of them are entertaining:

http://conspiracyanalyst.org/2015/11/28/windows-10-is-malware-deletes-users-programs/

Like some other complaints about Windows 10, it's been seized upon as a sign of an impending Microsoftian disaster, but the real-world effects appear to be quite limited.
 
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Heh, if a PC started crashing at every boot after a major update due to incompatible applications/drivers, don't you know the screams would be heard around the world.

This is a no-win situation for Microsoft; they'll get howled at in either case.
Nonsense.

Windows could easily alert the user to the problem and offer some choices:

* Remove the program.

* Disable the program without removing it.

* Do nothing and live dangerously.
My post wasn't so long that you had to snip the last couple of lines:

"I guess they decided that removing potentially-incompatible programs was the lesser evil, but they really should pop up a window explaining exactly what was deleted and why."

It's not nonsense. I'm talking about a problem that might be so severe the PC crashes at boot.
I think you presented a false choice -- remove or risk at crash at boot. I clearly presented a third and very viable option (disable without removal). I call your false choice nonsense.
If you know enough about Windows' internals to know for certain that's a viable option in every case, good enough. I do not. And I fail to see how Microsoft benefits from destroying third-party programs.
Do you know what software Microsoft has deleted in conjunction with an install or upgrade?
I've seen no software deletions myself on any of our five Windows 10 PCs, but apparently a few utilities are affected.

I did a search on this matter, and most of the reports about this appeared to date from just after the November update. Some of them are entertaining:

http://conspiracyanalyst.org/2015/11/28/windows-10-is-malware-deletes-users-programs/

Like some other complaints about Windows 10, it's been seized upon as a sign of an impending Microsoftian disaster, but the real-world effects appear to be quite limited.
I suspected as much. The only software I could find that was subject to moving to windows.old was an old copy of ccleaner.
 
Heh, if a PC started crashing at every boot after a major update due to incompatible applications/drivers, don't you know the screams would be heard around the world.

This is a no-win situation for Microsoft; they'll get howled at in either case.
Nonsense.

Windows could easily alert the user to the problem and offer some choices:

* Remove the program.

* Disable the program without removing it.

* Do nothing and live dangerously.
My post wasn't so long that you had to snip the last couple of lines:

"I guess they decided that removing potentially-incompatible programs was the lesser evil, but they really should pop up a window explaining exactly what was deleted and why."

It's not nonsense. I'm talking about a problem that might be so severe the PC crashes at boot.
I think you presented a false choice -- remove or risk at crash at boot. I clearly presented a third and very viable option (disable without removal). I call your false choice nonsense.
If you know enough about Windows' internals to know for certain that's a viable option in every case, good enough. I do not. And I fail to see how Microsoft benefits from destroying third-party programs.
Do you know what software Microsoft has deleted in conjunction with an install or upgrade?
I've seen no software deletions myself on any of our five Windows 10 PCs, but apparently a few utilities are affected.

I did a search on this matter, and most of the reports about this appeared to date from just after the November update. Some of them are entertaining:

http://conspiracyanalyst.org/2015/11/28/windows-10-is-malware-deletes-users-programs/

Like some other complaints about Windows 10, it's been seized upon as a sign of an impending Microsoftian disaster, but the real-world effects appear to be quite limited.
I suspected as much. The only software I could find that was subject to moving to windows.old was an old copy of ccleaner.
 
Pretty boring actually. So, why don't we stick to the essential and fundamental principles at stake here:
* Don't stick me with adverts

* Don't reconfigure/upgrade my systems without permission

* Don't delete MY sh*t

* Don't send my private sh*t to the mothership or anywhere else
You can always vote with your wallet. Why not just uninstall windows and install Linux?
I really can't believe so many folks are willing to compromise these principles but it seems they are.

Absent some course corrections by Microsoft, I do plan to move to Linux. Unfortunately, with decades of work, data, and software invested in Windows that is not a quick or easy task. But I am having a blast rewriting the first of my own applications for Linux.
 
Heh, if a PC started crashing at every boot after a major update due to incompatible applications/drivers, don't you know the screams would be heard around the world.

This is a no-win situation for Microsoft; they'll get howled at in either case.
Nonsense.

Windows could easily alert the user to the problem and offer some choices:

* Remove the program.

* Disable the program without removing it.

* Do nothing and live dangerously.
My post wasn't so long that you had to snip the last couple of lines:

"I guess they decided that removing potentially-incompatible programs was the lesser evil, but they really should pop up a window explaining exactly what was deleted and why."

It's not nonsense. I'm talking about a problem that might be so severe the PC crashes at boot.
I think you presented a false choice -- remove or risk at crash at boot. I clearly presented a third and very viable option (disable without removal). I call your false choice nonsense.
If you know enough about Windows' internals to know for certain that's a viable option in every case, good enough. I do not. And I fail to see how Microsoft benefits from destroying third-party programs.
Do you know what software Microsoft has deleted in conjunction with an install or upgrade?
I've seen no software deletions myself on any of our five Windows 10 PCs, but apparently a few utilities are affected.

I did a search on this matter, and most of the reports about this appeared to date from just after the November update. Some of them are entertaining:

http://conspiracyanalyst.org/2015/11/28/windows-10-is-malware-deletes-users-programs/

Like some other complaints about Windows 10, it's been seized upon as a sign of an impending Microsoftian disaster, but the real-world effects appear to be quite limited.
I suspected as much. The only software I could find that was subject to moving to windows.old was an old copy of ccleaner.
 
What about data that might be associated with those programs?

It seems to me that other non-Microsoft programs are part of the users data. For Microsoft to delete that data without explicit permission, and then lie about it, crosses the line into the realm of the totally unacceptable.
Excellent point Malch. Even if MS does not delete the user's data, the data can be useless without the program that created it. So effectively MS is deleting user data too!

So the folks who are defending MS action of deleting programs without warning. Would you be OK with losing your irreplaceable data? I think not.

Sky
What are the names of the executables that were deleted in a Win 10 install or upgrade? Did the were the executables available to download and reinstall? So far, I have only see executables of the Utility type that have been moved the windows.old folder. Microsoft has a right to protect it's property from malfunctioning software if they give free tech support.
Am disappointed to see that you think Microsoft's Win10 policy of deleting programs without the user's permission is OK. But that's your opinion and it's publicized.
Would you like to go back to the days where you had to pay for each incident you sent to MS?
Actually it's the other way around. I provided tech support, both in my job and in personal life, for folks who had Microsoft OS problems from the days of DOS to Windows 8. Some problems were not Microsoft's fault but some were. So I've saved MS from getting some calls. For the record, I've never called MS for any support except to re-activate my PCs that I had upgraded beyond Window's hardware hash restrictions.

Regarding folks who have programs that affect Windows 10 - paying for each incident that they send to MS, I've previously stated in this thread that I think MS should charge those folks to penalize them for calling MS.

Sky
 
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