New SSD - Wow

Ed - your Puget cite is benchmarking time to process image files. That's entirely different than the time to load a single small file from a drive, and is nearly all cpu time, which is why there is little tangible difference between the drive types in their survey.

When I talk about small files, I mean 1-2k files, or in the case of database transactions, potentially down to 512 bytes. When you do manipulations in the image catalog, there are lots of such actions. Or when you simply click around the library in LR, there is no delay from the read activity.

the time to load a file for a hard drive is largely comprised of the time it takes the head to move to the right track (1), and for the platter to rotate around to the right spot(2), and then the time to actually read the data off (3). For a small file, most of this latency is the first two, and it's why higher rpm drives perform better - the faster you spin, the less the cost of #2. That can reduce seek time from well over 10 ms to less than 5. It's also rather obvious how limiting this can be, and how valuable ram caching can be, as you repeat this cost for every load. A drive maxes out at 10s of these reads per second (50-70 being typical).

SSDs don't have heads or spinning media, so there is nearly zero latency before you get to #3, the actual transfer. "seek times" are less than 1/10 of a ms. And the transfer rate is limited more by the interface, with all recent Sata3 models doing 3x the sequential speed of the fastest drives. When we're talking about 512byte reads, they can do tens of thousands per second, rather than tens per second.
I was replying to your previous statement:

"LR (and really any other DAM product for photographers) benefits greatly from the SSD in live use, not just when loading the program for the first time.

Large file read/writes are 3-5x faster on a current SSD than a hard drive."


So where, exactly, in LR, are you seeing these great benefits? As Puget indicates, you don't see it in import, you don't see it in export. I certainly don't see it in the develop module. Merge to HDR and Panorama fly on my machine but that's because it's an overclocked 6700K with 32GB of memory, not because of the SSD.

So where in LR are you seeing the direct, visible, benefits of the SSD?
 
Ed - your Puget cite is benchmarking time to process image files. That's entirely different than the time to load a single small file from a drive, and is nearly all cpu time, which is why there is little tangible difference between the drive types in their survey.

When I talk about small files, I mean 1-2k files, or in the case of database transactions, potentially down to 512 bytes. When you do manipulations in the image catalog, there are lots of such actions. Or when you simply click around the library in LR, there is no delay from the read activity.
There are many softwares like Camtasia from Techsmith. Install it and record this process from your computer.
the time to load a file for a hard drive is largely comprised of the time it takes the head to move to the right track (1), and for the platter to rotate around to the right spot(2), and then the time to actually read the data off (3). For a small file, most of this latency is the first two, and it's why higher rpm drives perform better - the faster you spin, the less the cost of #2. That can reduce seek time from well over 10 ms to less than 5. It's also rather obvious how limiting this can be, and how valuable ram caching can be, as you repeat this cost for every load. A drive maxes out at 10s of these reads per second (50-70 being typical).
It is all theory but not in practice. Yes, it is faster to load from SSD but the difference is minute compared to overall process of loading the JPG (even a small one) because it has to be uncompressed and processed before you see it on the screen. The video I recorded is for small JPG files but one hundred of them.
SSDs don't have heads or spinning media, so there is nearly zero latency before you get to #3, the actual transfer. "seek times" are less than 1/10 of a ms. And the transfer rate is limited more by the interface, with all recent Sata3 models doing 3x the sequential speed of the fastest drives. When we're talking about 512byte reads, they can do tens of thousands per second, rather than tens per second.
Again, it might work for large databases where random access is important but not important for photos.
Very much wrong. Accessing photo files is very random, even when reading sequentially, while randomly accessing (database) files can be very sequential. To understand you must have knowledge on how the operating system, the file system and the hard disk work together to provide generally good performance for most applications. This performance can be tuned to provide better performance for demanding applications by making adjustments in the operating system and/or file system, for this you need good knowledge of the internals. The simplest way to improve the performance of the file system is to replace the IOPS restricted hard disk device (system drive) by an SSD and by using a dual/quad-core, preferable hyper-threading, CPU with adequate RAM (16GB). What is being overlooked that any computer can give high performance with a fresh installed operating system on a virgin hard disk but that changes as the system gets older because of fragmentation in the file system causing file access latency due to excessive head movement. (btw. the maximum number of IOPS for a consumer hard disk is 60..80 operations per second (depending on RPM), compared to a few thousand on an SSD). Another cause for bad performance is not enough RAM for the OS to be used for caching. The OS, and the file system, are applications which need RAM and CPU cycles to be able to serve the user applications. There are many useless benchmarks to compare the performance of hard disks and SSDs, the best evaluation is by working with a computer that has an SSD as system drive to notice how the system responds. Until today the worst performance factor of any personal computer is the user.
 
I was replying to your previous statement:

"LR (and really any other DAM product for photographers) benefits greatly from the SSD in live use, not just when loading the program for the first time.

Large file read/writes are 3-5x faster on a current SSD than a hard drive."


So where, exactly, in LR, are you seeing these great benefits? As Puget indicates, you don't see it in import, you don't see it in export. I certainly don't see it in the develop module. Merge to HDR and Panorama fly on my machine but that's because it's an overclocked 6700K with 32GB of memory, not because of the SSD.

So where in LR are you seeing the direct, visible, benefits of the SSD?
Ah - live use in this context is when you are interactively reviewing the shoot, culling, flagging, sorting, etc. Saving a tenth of a second or two matters for that sort of use. When one reads the often cited Adobe paper on LR performance for drives versus ssds, that aspect is noted as the primary (and basically only) advantage to the SSD.

DAMs rely on some sort of indexing db and lots of thumbnails. It's not a huge progression, but you'd hate going backwards.
 
Ed - your Puget cite is benchmarking time to process image files. That's entirely different than the time to load a single small file from a drive, and is nearly all cpu time, which is why there is little tangible difference between the drive types in their survey.

When I talk about small files, I mean 1-2k files, or in the case of database transactions, potentially down to 512 bytes. When you do manipulations in the image catalog, there are lots of such actions. Or when you simply click around the library in LR, there is no delay from the read activity.
There are many softwares like Camtasia from Techsmith. Install it and record this process from your computer.
the time to load a file for a hard drive is largely comprised of the time it takes the head to move to the right track (1), and for the platter to rotate around to the right spot(2), and then the time to actually read the data off (3). For a small file, most of this latency is the first two, and it's why higher rpm drives perform better - the faster you spin, the less the cost of #2. That can reduce seek time from well over 10 ms to less than 5. It's also rather obvious how limiting this can be, and how valuable ram caching can be, as you repeat this cost for every load. A drive maxes out at 10s of these reads per second (50-70 being typical).
It is all theory but not in practice. Yes, it is faster to load from SSD but the difference is minute compared to overall process of loading the JPG (even a small one) because it has to be uncompressed and processed before you see it on the screen. The video I recorded is for small JPG files but one hundred of them.
SSDs don't have heads or spinning media, so there is nearly zero latency before you get to #3, the actual transfer. "seek times" are less than 1/10 of a ms. And the transfer rate is limited more by the interface, with all recent Sata3 models doing 3x the sequential speed of the fastest drives. When we're talking about 512byte reads, they can do tens of thousands per second, rather than tens per second.
Again, it might work for large databases where random access is important but not important for photos.
Very much wrong. Accessing photo files is very random, even when reading sequentially, while randomly accessing (database) files can be very sequential. To understand you must have knowledge on how the operating system, the file system and the hard disk work together to provide generally good performance for most applications. This performance can be tuned to provide better performance for demanding applications by making adjustments in the operating system and/or file system, for this you need good knowledge of the internals. The simplest way to improve the performance of the file system is to replace the IOPS restricted hard disk device (system drive) by an SSD and by using a dual/quad-core, preferable hyper-threading, CPU with adequate RAM (16GB). What is being overlooked that any computer can give high performance with a fresh installed operating system on a virgin hard disk but that changes as the system gets older because of fragmentation in the file system causing file access latency due to excessive head movement. (btw. the maximum number of IOPS for a consumer hard disk is 60..80 operations per second (depending on RPM), compared to a few thousand on an SSD). Another cause for bad performance is not enough RAM for the OS to be used for caching. The OS, and the file system, are applications which need RAM and CPU cycles to be able to serve the user applications. There are many useless benchmarks to compare the performance of hard disks and SSDs, the best evaluation is by working with a computer that has an SSD as system drive to notice how the system responds. Until today the worst performance factor of any personal computer is the user.
Talk, talk and more talk. I have SSD installed in every computer and also HD (except for one laptop). I can run real tests and all real tests show me that I am 100% correct.

Tell me what test to run and as long as it is not synthetic I will do it and record it in real time and make a video. How is that for a challenge for you?
 
Ed - your Puget cite is benchmarking time to process image files. That's entirely different than the time to load a single small file from a drive, and is nearly all cpu time, which is why there is little tangible difference between the drive types in their survey.

When I talk about small files, I mean 1-2k files, or in the case of database transactions, potentially down to 512 bytes. When you do manipulations in the image catalog, there are lots of such actions. Or when you simply click around the library in LR, there is no delay from the read activity.
There are many softwares like Camtasia from Techsmith. Install it and record this process from your computer.
the time to load a file for a hard drive is largely comprised of the time it takes the head to move to the right track (1), and for the platter to rotate around to the right spot(2), and then the time to actually read the data off (3). For a small file, most of this latency is the first two, and it's why higher rpm drives perform better - the faster you spin, the less the cost of #2. That can reduce seek time from well over 10 ms to less than 5. It's also rather obvious how limiting this can be, and how valuable ram caching can be, as you repeat this cost for every load. A drive maxes out at 10s of these reads per second (50-70 being typical).
It is all theory but not in practice. Yes, it is faster to load from SSD but the difference is minute compared to overall process of loading the JPG (even a small one) because it has to be uncompressed and processed before you see it on the screen. The video I recorded is for small JPG files but one hundred of them.
SSDs don't have heads or spinning media, so there is nearly zero latency before you get to #3, the actual transfer. "seek times" are less than 1/10 of a ms. And the transfer rate is limited more by the interface, with all recent Sata3 models doing 3x the sequential speed of the fastest drives. When we're talking about 512byte reads, they can do tens of thousands per second, rather than tens per second.
Again, it might work for large databases where random access is important but not important for photos.
Very much wrong. Accessing photo files is very random, even when reading sequentially, while randomly accessing (database) files can be very sequential. To understand you must have knowledge on how the operating system, the file system and the hard disk work together to provide generally good performance for most applications. This performance can be tuned to provide better performance for demanding applications by making adjustments in the operating system and/or file system, for this you need good knowledge of the internals. The simplest way to improve the performance of the file system is to replace the IOPS restricted hard disk device (system drive) by an SSD and by using a dual/quad-core, preferable hyper-threading, CPU with adequate RAM (16GB). What is being overlooked that any computer can give high performance with a fresh installed operating system on a virgin hard disk but that changes as the system gets older because of fragmentation in the file system causing file access latency due to excessive head movement. (btw. the maximum number of IOPS for a consumer hard disk is 60..80 operations per second (depending on RPM), compared to a few thousand on an SSD). Another cause for bad performance is not enough RAM for the OS to be used for caching. The OS, and the file system, are applications which need RAM and CPU cycles to be able to serve the user applications. There are many useless benchmarks to compare the performance of hard disks and SSDs, the best evaluation is by working with a computer that has an SSD as system drive to notice how the system responds. Until today the worst performance factor of any personal computer is the user.
Talk, talk and more talk. I have SSD installed in every computer and also HD (except for one laptop). I can run real tests and all real tests show me that I am 100% correct.

Tell me what test to run and as long as it is not synthetic I will do it and record it in real time and make a video. How is that for a challenge for you?
I do not need your challenge, I have been using SSDs since 2008 on several of my personal systems, I know what I am talking about. Please read the last two sentences you quoted.
 
I was replying to your previous statement:

"LR (and really any other DAM product for photographers) benefits greatly from the SSD in live use, not just when loading the program for the first time.

Large file read/writes are 3-5x faster on a current SSD than a hard drive."


So where, exactly, in LR, are you seeing these great benefits? As Puget indicates, you don't see it in import, you don't see it in export. I certainly don't see it in the develop module. Merge to HDR and Panorama fly on my machine but that's because it's an overclocked 6700K with 32GB of memory, not because of the SSD.

So where in LR are you seeing the direct, visible, benefits of the SSD?
Ah - live use in this context is when you are interactively reviewing the shoot, culling, flagging, sorting, etc. Saving a tenth of a second or two matters for that sort of use. When one reads the often cited Adobe paper on LR performance for drives versus ssds, that aspect is noted as the primary (and basically only) advantage to the SSD.

DAMs rely on some sort of indexing db and lots of thumbnails. It's not a huge progression, but you'd hate going backwards.
I don't doubt that there might be a tenth of a second or two difference. But in terms of overall effect, I have not detected any noticeable difference. On the other hand, I noticed a very marked improvement moving to a much faster CPU.

Remember, I use SSDs for everything because in many areas the improvements are dramatic. I am just saying that within LR I have not seen SSDs make much of a difference, and certainly not as much as attributable to other hardware improvements.
 
I don't doubt that there might be a tenth of a second or two difference. But in terms of overall effect, I have not detected any noticeable difference. On the other hand, I noticed a very marked improvement moving to a much faster CPU.
a tenth of a second delay every other mouse click is a very difference experience. As I noted, you'd notice it more if you went back to a non SSD existence.
Remember, I use SSDs for everything because in many areas the improvements are dramatic. I am just saying that within LR I have not seen SSDs make much of a difference, and certainly not as much as attributable to other hardware improvements.
Your high clock speed is probably the only improvement that matters. If you replaced it with a 4ghz 8 core Haswell-E, you'd see a regression.
 
I do not need your challenge, I have been using SSDs since 2008 on several of my personal systems, I know what I am talking about. Please read the last two sentences you quoted.
Definitely save your time. That guy's definition of "synthetic tests" are any with results that disprove his argument. That plus his leg humping of Jim got him in my kill file a while back.
 
Talk, talk and more talk. I have SSD installed in every computer and also HD (except for one laptop). I can run real tests and all real tests show me that I am 100% correct.

Tell me what test to run and as long as it is not synthetic I will do it and record it in real time and make a video. How is that for a challenge for you?
I do not need your challenge, I have been using SSDs since 2008 on several of my personal systems, I know what I am talking about. Please read the last two sentences you quoted.
IOW, you are afraid of the challenge !!!!
 
I do not need your challenge, I have been using SSDs since 2008 on several of my personal systems, I know what I am talking about. Please read the last two sentences you quoted.
Definitely save your time. That guy's definition of "synthetic tests" are any with results that disprove his argument. That plus his leg humping of Jim got him in my kill file a while back.
My definition of synthetic test is the same as everyone's definition. Synthetic tests only target the item you are testing and usually not the real life experience. If you want to test which SSD is faster and compare one SSD to another by all means use synthetic test. But it has no bearing on the real life performance. But you can believe whatever you want to believe. Words are cheap.
 
Definitely save your time. That guy's definition of "synthetic tests" are any with results that disprove his argument.
My definition of synthetic test is the same as everyone's definition. Synthetic tests only target the item you are testing and usually not the real life experience.
proving my point.

No, that is not a valid definition.
 
I don't doubt that there might be a tenth of a second or two difference. But in terms of overall effect, I have not detected any noticeable difference. On the other hand, I noticed a very marked improvement moving to a much faster CPU.
a tenth of a second delay every other mouse click is a very difference experience. As I noted, you'd notice it more if you went back to a non SSD existence.
First of all it is not the tenth of the second. A full difference of even 15 milliseconds is .015 of the second.

Second of all your brain will not detect it while you click on the mouse. Even on the slow computer like my laptop small file like 150kb opens faster than I can think what to do with it.

And third of all it would be totally stupid clicking all day long on the single file to open it. That is why there are batch process is there.
Remember, I use SSDs for everything because in many areas the improvements are dramatic. I am just saying that within LR I have not seen SSDs make much of a difference, and certainly not as much as attributable to other hardware improvements.
Your high clock speed is probably the only improvement that matters. If you replaced it with a 4ghz 8 core Haswell-E, you'd see a regression.
You can't see regression in time. The time still be faster just not proportionally faster. IOW 8 core CPU will not be 2x faster than 4 core CPU. But one day it might be, just not with today's software. The only regression is in the value of the CPU if you can't load extra cores you have. Those who need ultimate in speed and power will still buy 8 core CPU and not the 4 core one.

Photography Director for Whedonopolis.com
 
Definitely save your time. That guy's definition of "synthetic tests" are any with results that disprove his argument.
My definition of synthetic test is the same as everyone's definition. Synthetic tests only target the item you are testing and usually not the real life experience.
proving my point.

No, that is not a valid definition.
You have not proved a thing.

--
Photography Director for Whedonopolis.com
 
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I do not need your challenge, I have been using SSDs since 2008 on several of my personal systems, I know what I am talking about. Please read the last two sentences you quoted.
Definitely save your time. That guy's definition of "synthetic tests" are any with results that disprove his argument. That plus his leg humping of Jim got him in my kill file a while back.
I have to agree, and also add that the ignore feature is particularly well implemented on this forum :)
 
I do not need your challenge, I have been using SSDs since 2008 on several of my personal systems, I know what I am talking about. Please read the last two sentences you quoted.
Definitely save your time. That guy's definition of "synthetic tests" are any with results that disprove his argument. That plus his leg humping of Jim got him in my kill file a while back.
I have to agree, and also add that the ignore feature is particularly well implemented on this forum :)
How about ignoring yourself? :-D
 
My definition of synthetic test is the same as everyone's definition. Synthetic tests only target the item you are testing and usually not the real life experience.
proving my point.

No, that is not a valid definition.
You have not proved a thing.
that is correct- *you* proved it for me.

(back to leaving you alone - enjoy making more wrong posts about 8 core performance)
You obviously don't know anything about how cores and software utilization work, do you?

I can record another video to prove it to you how wrong you are :-D

--
Photography Director for Whedonopolis.com
 
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