The Sigma MC-11 adapter

I asked Sigma:

...I noticed you have introduced the MC-11 adapter and I'm interested in it but I have a few questions. I use the EF mount Sigma 150-600 contemporary lens on my Canon body and I'm interested in the new Sigma MC-11 adapter to use that lens on my Sony A6000. Will the MC-11 work with that combination, in particular AF? Will the MC-11 adapter also work with my Canon brand EF mount lenses on the Sony A6000? How about those lens/adapter combinations and the Sony A6300?...

They responded:

"The MC-11 will fit and function correctly with both the a6000 and a6300 and your 150-600mm Sigma lens but we do not test our products with other manufacturers lenses, you would need to test it for yourself."
 
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Sigma has done well to provide a native solution for using its Canon/SA mount lenses on e-mount cameras. I'm sure owners of a7Rii and a7ii, and future owners of the a6300 will be thrilled.

As an owner of an NEX-6, I am quite eager, as many owners of a6000 would probably also be, to know if the new adapter will help Sigma lenses achieve AF-C as well quick AF-S on these older OSPDAF-equipped cameras.

The following quote from Sigma USA (emphasis mine) doesn't give me much hope:
“There are many challenges to designing high-quality mount converter and topping the list is aptly handling phase detection AF in newer cameras and this is where the Sigma MC-11 is groundbreaking in its support for the Sony E-mount systems,” states Mark Amir-Hamzeh, president of Sigma Corporation of America.
Will the older cameras be able to achieve reliable AF-S? Will it be quick? I don't think we should hope for AF-C support, but even single-shot AF would go a great distance.

I'd surely like to hear Entropy512's views about it. I'm sure he's happy that Sigma have not gone down the path of emulating the LA-EA1/3 adapters, but have decided to emulate a native e-mount lens.
Unfortunately, there's too little information, worse, it seems inconsistent.

I'm fairly certain that I've never seen DMF support from an EA1/3 emulating adapter. I need to double check this.

I'm also fairly certain that EA1/3 emulation doesn't support lens profile reporting.

So that's two claimed features I am fairly certain are hallmarks of native lens emulation.

Then they put up that compatibility chart that says no AF-C - another typical hallmark.

I know I've seen at least one person comment that, way back in the day, the order of things was something like:
  1. Sony and Sigma released a bunch of native lenses
  2. Sony added OSPDAF to some of their bodies
  3. These bodies needed lens firmware updates to gain OSPDAF. The DN trio never saw such an update
  4. Sony eventually added a firmware update to some bodies that permitted limited OSPDAF with "old" native lenses. - This is why the Sigma trio has center PDAF only on A6300
Problem is - I don't have any old lenses, so a lot of it is hearsay. I also can't find any claimed information from Sigma as to the performance of the existing DN trio - do they claim AF-C capability for those, or do they say no AF-C? If Sigma considers these lenses as not supporting AF-C, then that's some evidence that the MC-11 may have similar capabilities to the current DN trio (19/30/60) in terms of native lens emulation.

I'm right now debating whether I want to spend the money on the adapter to poke at it, or wait to see what happens when someone plugs an "unsupported" lens onto it. Sigma's compatibility page at http://www.sigma-global.com/en/lenses/cas/product/accessories/mount-converter/ has a telling remark: "Note *2: Accurate operation is not guaranteed with lenses not listed as compatible" - which implies that with an unrecognized lens, it will attempt to go into some sort of fallback mode. My guess is that the best chance of success here will be primes with slower focus motors (like the 50 STM). If anyone reports OK success with that, I'll be buying one of these to throw on the logic analyzer.

Another thing I can't figure out:

They talk about using the USB Dock to update the converter. But they didn't announce an E-mount USB dock...

Oh, another piece of info of note - the lenses listed as DMF-compatible are the ones that also are listed in http://www.sigma-global.com/en/lenses/cas/product/accessories/usb-dock/ as having configurable Full-Time MF settings. (Except for the 50-100, but I suspect that's just due to the USB dock page not being updated...) (Edit: My guess this is a focus-by-wire vs. traditional focus thing. I need to spend some time this weekend re-verifying, but I recall that when the focus ring is turned on a focus-by-wire lens, all of my adapters report a changing motor position. When I turn the ring of my EF85/1.8 USM - I don't see the motor position change in a logic analyzer trace.)
 
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Another thing I can't figure out:

They talk about using the USB Dock to update the converter. But they didn't announce an E-mount USB dock...
Good point...looks like I'll need an second USB dock for the MC-11. I wonder if the EF/E-mount MC-11 USB dock will update the supported Sigma EF mount lenses when those lenses are attached to the MC-11?
 
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But that doesn't mean camera manufactures stop 3rd parties from making lenses for their bodies and similarly I doubt sigma is going to stop canon lenses working on its adapter. I would be really surprised if they actively blocked canon lenses or if canon lenses didn't work at least as nicely as the cheaper smart adapters.
Sigma's compatibility table has a footnote that sais "accurate operation not guaranteed".

Based on all of the descriptions I've seen, the MC-11 has an internal table of known lenses. Those are the supported lenses. For these lenses, it has characteristic data that helps the adapter drive the lens properly. Focus motor speed, potential focus motor range, and a few other things can be problematic if not known in advance.

https://pickandplace.wordpress.com/2011/10/05/canon-ef-s-protocol-and-electronic-follow-focus/ is a great reference for EF mount.

One example from that page - "The problem is, every lens has different number of steps for the whole focusing range. Some have like 800, for others, it’s more 2500. It’s clear I had to increase the number of steps of the focusing ring for each of the encoder’s steps. That’s where the problems started to appear. The only solution I could come up with was to calibrate each lens at power-up by making it go across the full range of focus, counting the steps so I could use this number in my firmware." - Note that this is why the Techart III racks focus in/out on powerup. I am not sure if Metabones does, however it seems like Metabones does seem to determine when it hit a limit and records that for future use.

Min/max aperture for zoom lenses also seems problematic - that's why Metabones used to have a specific registration procedure for doing this. Their current page indicates that it seems like they've automated a lot of the characterization/calibration/tuning - http://www.metabones.com/article/of/maximum-aperture - It definitely relies on doing a full hunt, it just seems to rely on the camera driving it to the limits rather than driving it during initialization.

So there's a good chance that the MC-11 relies on a canned tuning table and does not have the "robust" automatic tuning algorithms that Metabones has. Most likely problems are going to be variable-aperture zooms and lenses with fast focus motors.

Well, without a doubt it relies on a canned tuning table for some things, such as vignetting/distortion/CA profile reporting.
 
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Another thing I can't figure out:

They talk about using the USB Dock to update the converter. But they didn't announce an E-mount USB dock...
Good point...looks like I'll need an second USB dock for the MC-11. I wonder if the EF/E-mount MC-11 USB dock will update the supported Sigma EF mount lenses when those lenses are attached to the MC-11?
It looks like I won't need another USB dock for the MC-11 after all because the MC-11 has it's own USB port specifically for updating the adpater as shown in Sigma's MC-11 introduction video.

Now I wonder if the MC-11 can serve double duty as a USB dock?
 
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I'm really curious what happened to 17-50 2.8 OS HSM..
Why did Sigma forget about it?
 
I'm really curious what happened to 17-50 2.8 OS HSM..
Why did Sigma forget about it?
Yes I still own this lens great lens, costs me US$280 2nd hand in mint condition, I am also wondering too. I also own Sigma 17-70mm f2.8-5.6, this lens is listed as a compatible lens.

I am looking forward to testing these 2 lenses with MC-11.
 
I'm really curious what happened to 17-50 2.8 OS HSM..
Why did Sigma forget about it?
Yes I still own this lens great lens, costs me US$280 2nd hand in mint condition, I am also wondering too. I also own Sigma 17-70mm f2.8-5.6, this lens is listed as a compatible lens.

I am looking forward to testing these 2 lenses with MC-11.
The 17-50/2.8 lens predates Sigmas Global Vision lenses and likely incorporates different chips and firmware that are not compatible with the adapter. The introduction video for the adapter clearly states SGV lenses only are supported. Also, there are two versions of the 17-70/2.8-4.0 and only the latter one of those is compatible (the "C" version or Contemporary).

What nobody knows yet is what will happen if you mount a non-supported lens on the adapter, will it just be a dumb adapter or will it still AF? We may not know this until it ships but the growing thought is that it'll do nothing.
 
I'm really curious what happened to 17-50 2.8 OS HSM..
Why did Sigma forget about it?
Yes I still own this lens great lens, costs me US$280 2nd hand in mint condition, I am also wondering too. I also own Sigma 17-70mm f2.8-5.6, this lens is listed as a compatible lens.

I am looking forward to testing these 2 lenses with MC-11.
The 17-50/2.8 lens predates Sigmas Global Vision lenses and likely incorporates different chips and firmware that are not compatible with the adapter. The introduction video for the adapter clearly states SGV lenses only are supported. Also, there are two versions of the 17-70/2.8-4.0 and only the latter one of those is compatible (the "C" version or Contemporary).
My 17-70mm is "C" version so I am good.
What nobody knows yet is what will happen if you mount a non-supported lens on the adapter, will it just be a dumb adapter or will it still AF? We may not know this until it ships but the growing thought is that it'll do nothing.
I suspect the 17-50mm version which is not supported like you say, may still get Exif data passed to the camera body, but acceptable autofocus speed and accuracy are unknown.

I also own a number of Canon EF and EF-S lenses and I will be testing them against this adapter when I lay my hands on it.
 
See "world's first test video" and "MC-11 Introduction Movie" at SonyAlphaRumors:

 
I'm really curious what happened to 17-50 2.8 OS HSM..
Why did Sigma forget about it?
Yes I still own this lens great lens, costs me US$280 2nd hand in mint condition, I am also wondering too. I also own Sigma 17-70mm f2.8-5.6, this lens is listed as a compatible lens.

I am looking forward to testing these 2 lenses with MC-11.
The 17-50/2.8 lens predates Sigmas Global Vision lenses and likely incorporates different chips and firmware that are not compatible with the adapter. The introduction video for the adapter clearly states SGV lenses only are supported. Also, there are two versions of the 17-70/2.8-4.0 and only the latter one of those is compatible (the "C" version or Contemporary).
My 17-70mm is "C" version so I am good.
What nobody knows yet is what will happen if you mount a non-supported lens on the adapter, will it just be a dumb adapter or will it still AF? We may not know this until it ships but the growing thought is that it'll do nothing.
I suspect the 17-50mm version which is not supported like you say, may still get Exif data passed to the camera body, but acceptable autofocus speed and accuracy are unknown.

I also own a number of Canon EF and EF-S lenses and I will be testing them against this adapter when I lay my hands on it.
me, and many others, look forward to your findings.
 
So, am I correct in assuming that this adapter is in fact similar with the LA-AE4 and not the LA-AE3? In other words I can expect autofocus functionality on my a6000, but only the CDAF variety, and presumably slower than a native solution?

Or if I'm completely wrong, why wouldn't they just say "look guys, if you want AF then you're just going to get a 3000$ camera, otherwise you just get a 20$ adapter with EXIF data built in"
No, the adapter isn't like an LA-EA4, The question is whether Sigma has somehow figured out how to get PDAF on the A6000 such as with the Sigma 19/30/60 trio at the center, or maybe wider (AFAIK the 30 f1.4 PDAF coverage is unknown so far).
 
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Not sure it has been mentioned before.....but according to Sigma the MC-11 will only support selected focus modes with different lenses on the a6000 [and probably the a6300 as well]

For example on the 17-70mm Contempory AF-S is all you will get...no AF-A, AF-C or DMF

And Manual Focus for video.

http://www.sigma-global.com/en/lenses/cas/product/accessories/mount-converter/#focus
Since I rarely use anything other than AF-S, I'm good with that. It's much better that the nothing I've got now. I don't use video.
 
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Since I rarely use anything other than AF-S, I'm good with that. It's much better that the nothing I've got now. I don't use video.
Actually I could live with that as well...I'm mainly interested in Landscape and Still Life and never touch the video button......but I would miss DMF...if only for the focus color indications.
 
I'm really curious what happened to 17-50 2.8 OS HSM..
Why did Sigma forget about it?
Yes I still own this lens great lens, costs me US$280 2nd hand in mint condition, I am also wondering too. I also own Sigma 17-70mm f2.8-5.6, this lens is listed as a compatible lens.

I am looking forward to testing these 2 lenses with MC-11.
The 17-50/2.8 lens predates Sigmas Global Vision lenses and likely incorporates different chips and firmware that are not compatible with the adapter. The introduction video for the adapter clearly states SGV lenses only are supported. Also, there are two versions of the 17-70/2.8-4.0 and only the latter one of those is compatible (the "C" version or Contemporary).
My 17-70mm is "C" version so I am good.
What nobody knows yet is what will happen if you mount a non-supported lens on the adapter, will it just be a dumb adapter or will it still AF? We may not know this until it ships but the growing thought is that it'll do nothing.
I suspect the 17-50mm version which is not supported like you say, may still get Exif data passed to the camera body, but acceptable autofocus speed and accuracy are unknown.

I also own a number of Canon EF and EF-S lenses and I will be testing them against this adapter when I lay my hands on it.
me, and many others, look forward to your findings.
Yup. There are enough unknowns to this that I'm not going to insta-buy it, but - Even some slight positive reports are going to change that as I really want to look at it on the logic analyzer. :)
 
Not sure it has been mentioned before.....but according to Sigma the MC-11 will only support selected focus modes with different lenses on E Mount bodies

For example on the 17-70mm Contempory AF-S is all you will get...no AF-A, AF-C or DMF

And Manual Focus for video.

http://www.sigma-global.com/en/lenses/cas/product/accessories/mount-converter/#focus
Right, BUT... DMF is a function of the electronic fly-by-wire focusing mechanism used in the Sony lenses because they all have stepping motors. In the case of the 17-70 (and pretty much all the other supported sigma lenses) they all have HSM motors and have full time manual focus override, which is essentially what DMF is. What you won't get is the auto magnification (focus assist) that is linked to DMF, but your manual override would still work given that's a mechanical function of how the lens works.
 
Not sure it has been mentioned before.....but according to Sigma the MC-11 will only support selected focus modes with different lenses on E Mount bodies

For example on the 17-70mm Contempory AF-S is all you will get...no AF-A, AF-C or DMF

And Manual Focus for video.

http://www.sigma-global.com/en/lenses/cas/product/accessories/mount-converter/#focus
Right, BUT... DMF is a function of the electronic fly-by-wire focusing mechanism used in the Sony lenses because they all have stepping motors. In the case of the 17-70 (and pretty much all the other supported sigma lenses) they all have HSM motors and have full time manual focus override, which is essentially what DMF is. What you won't get is the auto magnification (focus assist) that is linked to DMF, but your manual override would still work given that's a mechanical function of how the lens works.
Yup. It's the same deal with Canon's own lenses.

What has always surprised me is that Sony's bodies don't support automatic MF assist from EA1/3 adapters even though they convey the information necessary (or, maybe, a normal EA1/3 doesn't but it's something that Canon adapters attempting to emulate a native lens do???)

All of my Canon STM lenses update motor position information on an adapter when I rotate the focus ring - they're focus-by-wire. My one USM lens (EF85/1.8 USM) has mechanical override - when I rotate the focus ring manually, the motor position status does NOT update.
 

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